Confused about folate deficiency symptoms

[Gondwanaland]

@picante @Sherpa do you guys per chance get these symptoms at the same time every day? Like a circadian rhytm type of thing?

 

[picante]

@picante @Sherpa do you guys per chance get these symptoms at the same time every day? Like a circadian rhytm type of thing?

No, not really. But they come on pretty regularly after meals. I keep dosing up on stuff to reduce ammonia / homocysteine / sulfur because of the brain symptoms. But maybe I need to experiment with methylfolate after meals.

 

[tropicalkid]

@picante @Sherpa

Hi all,

I'm new here and just wanted to jump in if I could and mention that I am experiencing similar things regarding going from sharper to more blurry in my mind. I am really hoping to find out if I just need more folate or not. I am on Freddd's protocol, I am only on my second week of it.

I am taking 400mcg of folate 3xs a day. I am doing pretty fair on the protocol I would say. I am having start ups though for sure. I am just so used to being up and down for so many years, it just hasn't phased me much I guess.

Any good threads you guys suggest I read about folate? It seems like Freddd thinks you should really up the doses of it, would you all agree with that? I'm not sure how slow to go...thanks everyone

TropicalKid

 

[Sherpa]

@tropicalkid

The best collection of Freddd's threads on folate is this Guide done by @ahmo http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?entries/a-guide-to-freddds-protocol.1618/

For me it's worth printing.

I think Freddd's protocol is brilliant but it is not for the average patient. I think you have to be very cognizant (not brain fogged, illiterate) and very good at titrating and self-navigating to attempt it. I consider myself fairly seasoned at self-navigating supplement protocols but this "donut hole insufficiency," "methyl trap," "insatiable potassium" terrain is more challenging, more confusing than what I have experienced before. Your senses can decline fast and its hard to say what's going on. The stakes are much higher with potassium issues.

I believe that really upping the doses can help some folks, but I am not sure I am ready to "go there" at this point in my healing. Kind of like... I don't doubt my life would ascend to an amazing new level if I had 3 girlfriends, but I am not ready for the complexity and demands that come with that. Maybe some day

If I can only experience 200mcg of methylfolate-induced glutathione euphoria per day... that's more glutathione than I've had in years, so I am happy with it for now.

I am running into an issue with potassium and I am going to get my natural diet (not supplements / powder) very high in potassium before I try more experiments with metnylfolate. I ran into some problems craving potassium badly, then taking more in a blurry / achy frame of mind, then getting f$#%ed up. So this... to me says, "back up.. go slower for now" not go forward.

I would also suggest reading Dr. Ben Lynch's posts on methylfolate. He has different ideas and advocates a "start low, go slow" kind of approach. He is MTHFR himself and doesn't take methyfolate every day.. only when he needs an extra edge. http://mthfr.net/preventing-methylfolate-side-effects/2014/11/26/

 

[tropicalkid]

@Sherpa

Thanks so very much for the thoughtful reply. I am with you, I have been managing my own CFS for so long, but this stuff is a whole new ball game.

I found this thread regarding potassium from Rich

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...entation-needed-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/

It seems very helpful and I am going to reread it until I get a better idea of what is going on.

BTW, I tend to eat 8-10 (or more) bananas a day, 2-3 thai coconut waters (fresh) and potatoes for dinner, and even I am experiencing the low potassium. So it is obviously a very idiosyncratic issue, like so many others we face.

I am doing infra red saunas since I started Freddd's protocol, couldn't sweat too well beforehand. I am finding encouraging info regarding it.

I hope I am not too off topic to post it here, this study shows that the IFR sauna raises BH4 which helps CFS.

http://www.townsendletter.com/Nov2013/sauna1113.html

I will go check out the thread you shared with me, again thanks so much for responding. I really appreciate the help tremendously, all the best.

TropicalKid

 

[Sherpa]

@tropickid

Awesome link on Potassium! Thank you.

Wow... I am trying to increase my banana / potato intake in hopes that will be "mostly enough" - but it sounds like that's not the case for you! Great to know. Maybe it could take months or even years to make up for long term K deficiencies.

One phrase in Rich's explanation jumped out at me "overdrives the methylation cycle" - I don't want that.

The first time I got methylation working.... I got awesome results from 200mcg methylfolate, 250mcg mB12. (1/4 of a Seeking Health Active 12 with L-5-MTHF tablet sublingual)

I felt wonderful. Just right. Perfect. (Unfortunately it didn't last for more than a few hours and my body wanted more / higher doses.)

I would love to figure out how to stay in that peaceful state, not overdriven.. not deficient.

Unfortunately I think I have severe B12 and folate deficiencies... and taking a little makes me want a lot... which is the complex conundrum and high-wire-balancing-act that Freddd describes so well.

 

[ahmo]

@Sherpa reading your 2 posts makes me wonder if you might have some folate blocking from vegetables, vegetable folinic...seems it's something that happens w/ MTHFR, which you have ++. Also, I had brilliant results by taking a 1mg MB12 whenever I got ramped up from increasing my folate. I popped one into my gum, and the relief was immediate.

BTW, I tend to eat 8-10 (or more) bananas a day, 2-3 thai coconut waters (fresh) and potatoes for dinner, and even I am experiencing the low potassium. So it is obviously a very idiosyncratic issue, like so many others we face.

Sounds to me like it's not idiosyncratic. this is what happens with the protocol, as the folate turns on healing and the body needs more potassium. It might be fare more efficient for you to use something like potassium gluconate.

 

[Sherpa]

I didn't even take any methylfolate for over a week.... just B12 Oil spray for the first time this morning (good stuff!)... but by evening I started to feel blurry, achy and off. I figured it was "paradoxical B12 insufficency." I went to sleep. I woke up 2 hours later twitching, jerking arms and legs, and tingling. Potassium gluconate brought relief. It was potassium insufficency!

Can just higher dose B12 alone deplete potassium? I also increased magnesium to try and compensate for more B12... I guess more magnesium can increase demand for potassium?


@ahmo hmm.. folate blocking from vegetables. Heard about this briefly. Is the solution to not eat vegetables? (oh please no! I do eat quite a lot and enjoy some of the benefits)

 

[ahmo]

Hi @Sherpa...I'm no longer eating any green veggies. I just commented on what I thought could be contributing. My mind isn't sharp enough at present (if it ever was) to know if this will be applicable to you. You can only find out by eliminating them for a few days to see if anything shifts. For me it eventually became apparent that even small amounts of green veg pushed an adrenal reaction. I could probably do a small amount once in awhile, but haven't revisited this at present.

 

[Sherpa]

@ahmo thanks, my mind was so blurry when I wrote that last night it was unbelievable. I took B12 spray which caused major potassium insufficency.

Thanks for letting me know about the potential problems with veggie folate.

I don't "seem" to have a reaction to them but I never tried eliminating them.

I just crave (methyl)folate and even small amounts inspire a major healing response and craving for more, followed by insatiable potassium demands.

 

[tropicalkid]

@Sherpa reading your 2 posts makes me wonder if you might have some folate blocking from vegetables, vegetable folinic...seems it's something that happens w/ MTHFR, which you have ++. Also, I had brilliant results by taking a 1mg MB12 whenever I got ramped up from increasing my folate. I popped one into my gum, and the relief was immediate.


Sounds to me like it's not idiosyncratic. this is what happens with the protocol, as the folate turns on healing and the body needs more potassium. It might be fare more efficient for you to use something like potassium gluconate.

Thanks so much @ahmo . I am looking into that form of Potassium to purchase. Do you have a favorite brand?

 

[ahmo]

@tropicalkid NOW potassium gluconate powder is what I find the most versatile. Tablets come in max 99mg, as they can upset stomach. Some use potassium chloride, it's more concentrated than gluconate, but unless you're using it as salt substitute, not very palatable to mix into water. Gluconate has little taste.

I generally use mine in footbaths, only drinking it when I have an urgent need. This is just a personal preference, as I was using footbaths twice daily, with a number of other supps. It seems my very high intake of carrots these past weeks has eliminated my potassium needs. I've been eating about 1kg/day, to deal with oxidative stress. Not needing much K+ during this period.

@Sherpa great to see your new thread. Very comprehensive summary, should get you some intelligent responses.

 

[tropicalkid]

@tropickid

Awesome link on Potassium! Thank you.

Wow... I am trying to increase my banana / potato intake in hopes that will be "mostly enough" - but it sounds like that's not the case for you! Great to know. Maybe it could take months or even years to make up for long term K deficiencies.

One phrase in Rich's explanation jumped out at me "overdrives the methylation cycle" - I don't want that.

The first time I got methylation working.... I got awesome results from 200mcg methylfolate, 250mcg mB12. (1/4 of a Seeking Health Active 12 with L-5-MTHF tablet sublingual)

I felt wonderful. Just right. Perfect. (Unfortunately it didn't last for more than a few hours and my body wanted more / higher doses.)

I would love to figure out how to stay in that peaceful state, not overdriven.. not deficient.

Unfortunately I think I have severe B12 and folate deficiencies... and taking a little makes me want a lot... which is the complex conundrum and high-wire-balancing-act that Freddd describes so well.

Hi @Sherpa,

I think I took away from Rich's writing referenced above that possibly those with CFS have intracellular potassium deficiencies, and then on top of that we get these induced potassium deficiencies with the adding of the b12/folate.
I just imagine this could be at the heart of why it takes us so long to recover, if the cellular pumps aren't functioning, we need constant supplementation to make progress. This is tough with someone suffering these brain fogged, fatigued symptoms.

Please don't be discouraged by me eating so much Potassium and still needing supps. I am only taking about 300mg a day, and it seems to be good, for now. I do love eating this way, and I do think the massive amounts of potassium in my diet is helping tremendously as I feel good on this protocol, but am not so naive to think I couldn't catch a road bump or two along the way. It seems like these induced deficiencies may level off as more healing can take place and the body can get the minerals into our cells properly. What a ride, huh?

TropicalKid

 

[tropicalkid]

@tropicalkid NOW potassium gluconate powder is what I find the most versatile. Tablets come in max 99mg, as they can upset stomach. Some use potassium chloride, it's more concentrated than gluconate, but unless you're using it as salt substitute, not very palatable to mix into water. Gluconate has little taste.

I generally use mine in footbaths, only drinking it when I have an urgent need. This is just a personal preference, as I was using footbaths twice daily, with a number of other supps. It seems my very high intake of carrots these past weeks has eliminated my potassium needs. I've been eating about 1kg/day, to deal with oxidative stress. Not needing much K+ during this period.

@Sherpa great to see your new thread. Very comprehensive summary, should get you some intelligent responses.

Well thanks again @ahmo! I will get that NOW brand, love your idea and method of the foot bath. Will give it a try, have a nice one

TropicalKid

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi @tropicalkid it is a very personal journey, some

more magnesium can increase demand for potassium?

That is correct. In my foggy understanding I think you need a certain amount of magnesium to keep some potassium inside you (and not pee everything out). Magnesium will put potassium inside the cells and it will be unavailable. Sorry for my clumsy vocabulary.

 

[tropicalkid]

Hi @tropicalkid it is a very personal journey, some

That is correct. In my foggy understanding I think you need a certain amount of magnesium to keep some potassium inside you (and not pee everything out). Magnesium will put potassium inside the cells and it will be unavailable. Sorry for my clumsy vocabulary.

Hi @Gondwanaland

Thanks for tagging me Can I ask you, were you saying above that Magnesium puts potassium inside cells and then somehow it can't be accessed any longer because of the Magnesium? Or the Magnesium places the Potassium in the cells, and then it IS available, therefore we absolutely need Magnesium to even have enough Potassium?

TropicalKid

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hi @Gondwanaland

Thanks for tagging me Can I ask you, were you saying above that Magnesium puts potassium inside cells and then somehow it can't be accessed any longer because of the Magnesium? Or the Magnesium places the Potassium in the cells, and then it IS available, therefore we absolutely need Magnesium to even have enough Potassium?

TropicalKid

I think we need some free potassium in the serum, because I think it is somehow used to lower ammonia through the urea cycle (I might be wrong).

 

[acrosstheveil]

i've been trying to increase my methylfolate. startup has been tough. if i take 1mg it turns me into a raging lunatic. I've been thinking about trying a 4-5 mg dose but I'm kind of scared. need to do it on a weekend or something.

edit: went from 800 mcg to 3 mg a day and feel so much better. I think i had paradoxical folate insufficiency and it was causing agitation. i feel a lot calmer and like a cloud has lifted.

 

[picante]

i've been trying to increase my methylfolate. startup has been tough. if i take 1mg it turns me into a raging lunatic and i'm afraid i'm going to lose my job with how crazy it makes me so i back down and my old symptoms return. I've been thinking about trying a 4-5 mg dose but I'm kind of scared. need to do it on a weekend or something.

My experience with Mefolate: Depression within a couple of days. I tried it so many times, and always got depressed. So I decided I didn't need it after all. It can really mess with neurotransmitters.

 

[Crux]

i've been trying to increase my methylfolate. startup has been tough. if i take 1mg it turns me into a raging lunatic and i'm afraid i'm going to lose my job with how crazy it makes me so i back down and my old symptoms return. I've been thinking about trying a 4-5 mg dose but I'm kind of scared. need to do it on a weekend or something.

Please don't.