collagen depletion

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hey all,

I've had CFS type symptoms (mainly a sleep disorder) since mid 2012. With melatonin and herbal antivirals and sleep meds (zopiclone) my symptoms were largely under control until mid 2014, when I went through a bout of sudden weight loss and increased fatigue.

I lost a lot of muscle and, more troublingly, collagen. My skin became loose and I developed wrinkles. Also, ever since that time my skin has been slow to heal from any and all wounds. Minor scratches turn into scars.

I've gone through a recent bout of symptoms and am awaiting test results for autoimmunity. Has anyone else been through this sort of thing, ie rapid aging? And if so, what can be done. Thanks,
 

helen1

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Yes! I think this is the first I've seen someone bring up this issue. My skin has aged greatly since getting ill - wrinkles and looseness. I'd also be really interested in hearing theories as to why this might be.
 

WoolPippi

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I've gone through a recent bout of symptoms and am awaiting test results for autoimmunity. Has anyone else been through this sort of thing, ie rapid aging? And if so, what can be done. Thanks,
I'm sure you've educated yourself about collagen. I haven't (sorry) but I just encountered this post that mentions that vit C is vital for collagen. Do you know about this? edit: oh, the thread veers off into scurvy. I doubt the vit. C/collagen connection now.
EDIT: I revised my doubt. Wikipedia says vit C is needed for trnasformation of Glycine and Proline into collagen. And cortisol degrades collagen formation. Stress is an enemy of collagen.

"Collagen has an unusual amino acid composition and sequence:

  • Glycine is found at almost every third residue.
  • Proline makes up about 17% of collagen.
  • Collagen contains two uncommon derivative amino acids not directly inserted during translation. These amino acids are found at specific locations relative to glycine and are modified post-translationally by different enzymes, both of which require vitamin C as a cofactor.
Cortisol stimulates degradation of (skin) collagen into amino acids.[17]"

Also: I eat lots of collagen. Dr. Kwasniewski emphasizes it in Optimal Diet so I thought I'd follow. Lots of gelatine and broth. It feels good but I suspect this is because gelatine is easily absorbed in the gut. It feels like a comfort food.

did your test results shed any light on collagen depletion?
 
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WoolPippi

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While looking at other things collagen I keep encountering collagen. I'm just going to park some things here, to mull over. Three things: Taurine, Glycine and Fat.

looking at things for the liver the amino acid Taurine comes up: it's in every tissue, just a little bit. But it's 35% of collagen.
Also it has to do with cysteine and with the Methylation cycle. So I was thinking: PwME often have trouble with the Methylation Cycle and liver function. Taurine could be a link between that and your collagen issue.

The other thing for the liver is Glycine. Which is connected to collagen too, says dr. Google.

Fat: last century dr. Budwig was the one who researched fat. She found out how long after ingesting fat shows up in the skin (=connection with collagen). She determined that emulsified fats are more easily digested (whipped cream vs. butter).
I'm here to mention that digested fat does not go through liver detox first, first port of call is the lymph system. Flowing through all those nodes, doing all kinds of things for the immune system. After that it gets dumped into the blood stream and travels to the liver for detox. (of course to digest fat one needs bile which is produced by the liver)
train of thought = fat - digestion - immune system - liver - skin
It's all connected.
 

Little Bluestem

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Fat: last century dr. Budwig was the one who researched fat. She found out how long after ingesting fat shows up in the skin (=connection with collagen). She determined that emulsified fats are more easily digested (whipped cream vs. butter).
Years ago, when people in the US were being urged to eat margarine instead of butter, the chef Julia Childs said that if people quit eating butter it would ruin their skin.
 

wastwater

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Budwig diet might give that a try
Didn't know that proline was so important in collagen
 
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liverock

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If your losing a lot of muscle it might be worthwhile checking for BeriBeri. Most doctors dont check for this unless your an alcoholic. People losing a lot of weight sometimes try to put it back on by eating a lot more carbs which can deplete further the already low level of Thiamin (B1) which is the main problem in BeriBeri.

https://www.msdmanuals.com/en-gb/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/thiamin

Oral Thiamin can be bought from health shops if you want to try it but iyou may need injections for larger doses from the doctor, with a lot of muscle loss.


If your trying collagen supplements (and already have high blood pressure), it can be dangerous according to an article In CIRCULATION magazine, the Journal of the American Heart Association. I have emailed several collagen suppliers for comments as it doesn't appear to be mentioned on their products as a note of caution, and have yet to receive any replies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/149783.stm
 

liverock

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If your trying collagen supplements (and already have high blood pressure), it can be dangerous according to an article In CIRCULATION magazine, the Journal of the American Heart Association. I have emailed several collagen suppliers for comments as it doesn't appear to be mentioned on their products as a note of caution, and have yet to receive any replies.
I have received one reply from a collagen supplement manufacturer (NOW), on this question about collagen and hypertension:

Thanks for contacting us about this issue. I checked with one of our senior scientist and received this reply:

First of all, dietary supplements are intended for use by healthy individuals to maintain health in these individuals. By definition, people with hypertension have a disease, and it is advised that anyone with a health condition consult their physician before using them.

Second, the articles cited discuss endogenous collagen synthesis in the vascular system, which has nothing to do with supplemental collagen peptides. These articles discuss a pathogenic process related to overproduction of collagen within the walls of blood vessels, which makes them stiffer, eventually leading to hypertension. There is no evidence that taking a collagen dietary supplement can cause or exacerbate hypertension. In fact, some studies actually show a decrease in BP in humans with hydrolyzed marine, chicken, porcine, and bovine collagen supplements,1-4 and marine collagen supplements may offer protection against diabetes and hypertension.5,6 There are also animal studies that show that collagen hydrolysates protect against hypertension and cardiovascular damage.7, 8

Remember, collagen supplements are typically hydrolyzed and it is the peptides that make up the product, not whole collagen molecules. Also, collagen biology is complex.

It appears that various natural compounds such as melatonin and Pycnogenol may protect the vasculature independent of blood pressure, most likely through their antioxidant/anti-inflammatory effects.9, 10

Bottom line is that there should be little concern regarding appropriate use of hydrolyzed collagen supplements.
As with all our supplements, if taking medications or have a medical condition, consult your physician.

Jim G.
NOW Product Information Dept.

Information in this response refers to products labeled for sale in the U.S.A. unless otherwise indicated.