Coffee Enemas!!

[Undisclosed]

I made a french press coffee with 2tbsp coffee and it gave me terrible anxiety and blood pressure went very high. It was literally the opposite effect. Many others say the same. I think wayne here has done thousands of CEs. No scientific references for this of course just anecdotes.

I have followed Wayne's posts since 2009 and it seems his health has deteriorated despite thousands of coffee enema's. According to your comments, Wayne should be running marathons. sadly he isn't despite all the enema's.

 

[Hip]

For the last 6 months ive experimented with gargling 6x a day for vagus nerve activation. I would feel incredibly relaxed after it like my parasympathetic system came back into balance

Interestingly i have noticed the same with coffee enemas. I held off coffee enemas for years due to my severe stimulant intolerances, but after my first one i was so surprised at how relaxing it was. I definitely think it helps vagus nerve tone,

Tried a black coffee today. Blood pressure and anxiety sky rocketed and i felt terrible. Complete opposite effect of the enema.

And if anyone cares for another anecdote, I do become extremely wired when I drink coffee. But I become quite calm after I infuse it the other end. Wired and tired becomes, in time, tranquil and energised.

The above self-observations — that paradoxically coffee has a stimulant effect when taken orally, but a calming relaxing effect when administered rectally by enema — are also to be found in other reports on the Internet. For example:

Many people have noted the paradoxical calming effect of coffee enemas. Source: 1

And don’t worry about the caffeine effect as coffee taken rectally has a calming effect as it can activate the parasympathetic nervous system. Source: 1

So it seems that coffee does have different effects when administered by enema.

There are articles online suggesting (unfortunately without any evidence) that coffee enemas calm the sympathetic nervous system, and activate the parasympathetic. If coffee enemas do modulate the autonomic nervous system, that might play a role in inducing a relaxed state of mind.

Dr Datis Kharrazian suggests using a strong coffee enema daily, so the caffeine in the coffee will stimulate something called the gastrointestinal nicotinic cholinergic receptors which encourage gut motility. Source: 1

The journal Physiological Chemistry and Physics stated that "caffeine enemas cause dilation of bile ducts, which facilitates excretion of toxic cancer breakdown products by the liver and dialysis of toxic products across the colonic wall." Ref: 1

So in this respect, a coffee enema may work in a similar way to a "gallbladder flush," which is supposed to increase bile flow.

It may not just be the caffeine that has an effect in the coffee enema, as coffee contains other compounds such as chlorogenic acid, caffeine, cafestol, and kahweol. Ref: 1

Apparently, until about 1984, the coffee enema procedure was listed in the Merck Manual. Ref: 1



One athlete reported that coffee enemas more or less cured his ME/CFS in two weeks:

The treatment that worked for me was coffee enemas. In those days they were not as familiar as today. I don't know where the coffee enema originated, but I know coffee is an herb.

We now utilize herbs in various ways for healing and health.

At first I thought it was crazy and I mentally resisted. I started my coffee enemas and 2 weeks later had my CFS under total control, and almost gone.

My CFS regiment consisted of the coffee enema, and low carbohydrate diet.

I dropped 20 lbs in 10 days and was ripped again.

One person reported that coffee enemas help with his "horrible suicidal depression."



I came across this, which I found interesting (I would like to have seen a follow-up study):

In a highly suggestive 1988 study of cancer patients who underwent so-called spontaneous regressions, Harold Foster, Ph.D., of the University of Victoria, British Columbia, presented data on 200 recovered patients who had used various alternative treatments, including the Gerson therapy, Hoxsey's herbs, Kelley dietary approach, macrobiotics, Moerman diet, and Jason Winters Herbal Tea.

Over half of the group had used some form of detoxification, such as coffee enemas, castor-oil enemas, saunas, colonies, or fasting. In addition, 88 percent of the patients had made major dietary changes, usually switching to a strictly vegetarian diet. A total of 65 percent of the patients had taken mineral supplements, potassium and iodine being by far the most frequently used. Niacin, digestive enzymes, bioflavonoids, red clover, and vitamins A, Bl2, and C were also taken frequently.

Source: 1

 

[douglasmich]

Thanks for your analysis hip, always making good posts here.

I believe there were some case reports pre 1950 using enemas for bi-polar. The patients were off their meds and sent home well again. I am trying to dig it up. It might be a parroted tale, but im sure i can find something.

Like i have said many times in this thread (and people seem to not be able to read), i am well aware that there is not enough evidence to claim scientifically that coffee enemas have physiological benefit However that does not mean they are useless. They just lack evidence. And nobody is going to fund thousands of dollars to test something that can not be patented plain and simple.

Dr Gersons work is quite fascinating. His work at the time on tuberculosis was ground breaking. The biological basis of the coffee enema was to stimulate the bile yes. He included it into his therapy after loosing patients to hepatic coma. At the time German scientists were doing experiments on rats and were able to stimulate bile flow via rectal caffeine. Being aware that bile is what contains and excretes poisons he included it into the therapy in the 50"s and saw great success. When the therapy was really kicking in, his patients were nearly dying from the tumours breaking down. I cannot remember what this is called, but oncologists know it happens if they give too much chemo too fast. THe body is overwhelmed with the toxins from tum ours breaking down that the liver cannot clear it fast enough, causing the patient to become sick and possibly. die. That was when the coffee enema was administered to stimulate the flow of bile and to excrete the toxins. In Dr Gersons clinical experience it worked, and it became one of the most important part of his cancer therapy.

Its quite a shame the father of nutritional immunology is not a household name. However in 2005 he was inducted into the Orthomolecular Medicine Hall of Fame in 2005 http://orthomolecular.org/hof/hof2005.pdf

But his discoveries were of course against the grain. Speaking against cigarettes (MDs smoked and advertised them back then), conventional farming and drugs and surgery.


“I see in Dr. Max Gerson one of the most eminent geniuses in the history of medicine” Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, Dr. Albert Schweitzer.

 

[douglasmich]

Here is the list of many of Dr Gersons publications throughout his career if anyone is interested. Sadly a lot do not have electronic links. I would be very interested in his oldest papers.

SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES

Gerson, M. "Eine Bromoformvergiftung." [Bromocol poisoning] Ärztliche Sachverständigen-Zeitung. (Aus der innern Abteilung des Städt. Krankenhauses im Friedrichshain zu Berlin). S. 7, 1910.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Zur Ätiologie der myasthenischen Bulbarparalyse." [Concerning the etiology of myasthenic bulbar paralysis] Berl. Klin. Wchnschr. 53:1364, 1916.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Über Lähmungen bei Diphtheriebazillenträgern." [On paralyses found in diphtheria carriers] Berl. Klin. Wchnschr. 56(12):274-277, Mar. 24, 1919. (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Zur Ätiologie der multiplen Sklerose." [Concerning the etiology of multiple sclerosis] Deutsche. Ztschr. f. Nervenh., Leipz. LXXIV, 251-259, 1922. (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Über die konstitutionelle Grundlage von nervösen Krankheitserscheinungen und deren therapeutische Beeinflußung." [On the constitutional basis of nervous symptoms and their therapeutic influence] Fortschr. d. Med., Berl. 42:9-11, 1922. (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Die Entstehung und Begründung der Diätbehandlung der Tuberkulose. [The origin and rationale of the diet treatment of tuberculosis] Med. Welt. [[NLMID 03776641]], 3:1313-1317, 1929.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Korrespondenzen: Rachitis und Tuberkulosebehandlung." [Correspondences in the treatment of rickets and tuberculosis] Deutsche. med. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 0006723]], 55(38):1603, Sep. 20, 1929.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Phosphorlebertran und die Gerson-Herrmannsdorfersche Diät zur Heilung der Tuberkulose." [Phosphorus, cod liver oil, and the Gerson-Herrmannsdorfer Diet in the cure of tuberculosis] Deutsche. med. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 0006723]], 56:478-480, Mar. 21, 1930.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Comment on Wichmann’s article of December 17." Klin. Wchnschr. 9:693-694, Apr. 12, 1930.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Einige Ergebnisse der Gerson-Diät bei Tuberkulose." [Someresults of the Gerson Diet in tuberculosis] Med. Welt. [[NLMID 0376641]], 4:815-820, Jun. 7, 1930.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Grundsätzliche Anleitungen zur "Gerson-Diät". [Basic instructions for the Gerson Diet] Münch. med. Wochnschr. [[NLMID 7801802]], 77:967-971, Jun. 6, 1930.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Erwiderung auf die Arbeit: ‘Die Gründe der Ablehnung der salzlosen Diät durch die Tuberkuloseheilanstalten’ von Prof. O. Ziegler." [Response to Prof. O. Ziegler’s work: ‘Reasons for the rejection of the salt-free diet by the tuberculosis sanitariums’] Deutsche med. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 0006723]], 57:334-335, Feb. 20, 1931.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Einiges über die kochsalzarme Diät." [Some comments on the low-salt diet] Hippokrates. [[NLMID 0413670]], 3:627-634, Mar. 1931.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Erwiderung auf die Arbeit C. v. Noordens ‘Kritische Betrachtungen über Gerson-Diät insbesondere bei Tuberkulose.’" [Response to C. v. Noorden’s work: 'Critical observations concerning the Gerson Diet in particular regard to tuberculosis'] Med. Klin. Wchnschr. 45:1116-1117, Sep. 9, 1932.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Blutsenkung bei Diätbehandlung der Lungentuberkulose." [Sedimentation in the diet treatment of pulmonary tuberculosis] Zeitschr. f. Tuberk. [[NLMID 0216146]], 63:327-337, 1932.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Einige Resultate der Diättherapie bei Kavernen nach vorausgegangener chirurgischen Behandlung." [Some outcomes of the diet therapy with ‘Kavernen’ following prior surgical treatment]Verhandl. d. deutsche Gesellsch. f. inn. Med. Kong. 44:222-224, 1932.[Translator's note: ‘Kavernen’ are small cavities in the tissue found in advanced stages of pulmonary tuberculosis] (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Diätbehandlung bei Migräne und Lungentuberkulose." [Diet treatment of migraine and pulmonary tuberculosis] Wiener Klin. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 21620870R]], 45:744-748, Jun. 10, 1932.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Psychische Reaktionen während der Gerson-Diät bei Lungentuberkulose." [Psychological reactions during the Gerson Diet in pulmonary tuberculosis]. Psychotherapeut. Praxis. 1:206-213, Dec. 1934.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Unspezifische Desensibilsierung durch Diät bei allergischen Hautkrankheiten." [Nonspecific desensitization by means of diet in allergic skin diseases] Dermat. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 0232054]], 100:441, Apr. 20, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Unspezifische Desensibilsierung durch Diät bei allergischen Hautkrankheiten." [Nonspecific desensitization by means of diet in allergic skin diseases] Dermat. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 0232054]], 100:478, Apr. 27, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Bemerkungen zum Aufsatz von Neumann, ‘Ernährung der Tuberkulösen.’" [Comments to Neumann's paper, ‘Feeding of the tubercular patient’] Wien. Klin. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 21620870R]], 48:272-273, Mar. 1, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Rückbildung von Entzündungen bei Gerson-Diät unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Tuberkulösen Entzündung." [Regression in inflammations with the Gerson Diet with special consideration of the tubercular inflammation] Wien. Klin. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 21620870R]], 48:847-853, Jun. 21, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Anmerkung zur obigen Ausführung von W. Newmann." [Notation to the preceding comments by W. Newmann] Wien. Klin. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 21620870R]], 48:1069, Aug. 23, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M.; von Weisl, W. "Lebermedikamentur bei der Diättherapie chronischer Krankheiten." [The administration of liver extract in relation to the diet treatment of chronic illnesses] Wien. med. Wchnschr. [[NLMID 21620870R]], 85:1095-1098, Sep. 28, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M.; von Weisl, W. "Flüßigkeitsreiche Kalidiät als Therapie bei cardiorenaler Insuffizienz." [High fluid and potassium diet as treatment in cardiorenal insufficiency] Münch. med. Wochnschr. [[NLMID 7801802]], 82:571-574, Apr. 11, 1935.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Feeding the German Army." New York State J. Med. [[NLMID 0401064]], 41(13):1471-1476, Jul. 1, 1941.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Some aspects of the problem of fatigue." Med. Record. 156(6):341, 1943.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Dietary considerations in malignant neoplastic disease; preliminary report." Rev. Gastroenterol. [[NLMID 20130250R]], 12:419-425, Nov.-Dec. 1945. (Available at GRO)

Gerson, M. "Case histories of ten cancer patients: clinical observations, theoretical considerations and summary." National Archives, Center for Legislative Archives, Rec. Grp. 46, Rec. US Senate, Papers Relating to Specific Bills and Resolutions, S.1875, 79th Cong., 2nd Session. Box 110, 8E2 24/14/4, Jul. 1946.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "The Jew and Diet." The Jewish Forum, New York City, Apr. 1948.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Effects of combined dietary regime on patients with malignant tumors." Exper. Med. & Surg. [[NLMID 0435437]], 7:299-317, Nov. 1949(Available at GRO)

Gerson, M. "Theorie der diätetisch-medikamentösen Krebs-Behandlung." [Theory of the dietetic-medication cancer treatment] Der Wendepunkt. Zürich, Switzerland, XXVI(12):379-386, Nov. 1949. (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Kein Krebs bei normalem Stoffwechsel; Ergebnisse einer speziellen Therapie." [No cancer in normal metabolism; results of a special therapy]Med. Klin. [[NLMID 0376637]] 49(5):175-179, Jan. 29, 1954. (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Krebskrankheit, ein Problem des Stoffwechsels." [Cancer, a problem of metabolism] Med. Klin. [[NLMID 0376637]], 49(26):1028-1032, Jun. 25, 1954 (Available at GRO and ACT)

Gerson, M. "Zur medikamentösen Behandlung Krebskranker nach Gerson." [On the medication treatment of cancer patients after Gerson] Med. Klin. [[NLMID 0376637]], 49(49):1977-1978, 1954. (No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "A New Therapeutical Approach to Cancer." Herald of Health, Apr. 1957.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "Cancer – Reflected Symptom of Abnormal Metabolism." Let’s Live Magazine, Los Angeles, CA, 1957.(No known electronic link)

Gerson, M. "The cure of advanced cancer by diet therapy: a summary of 30 years of clinical experimentation." (lecture given in 1956) Physiol. Chem. Phys. [[NLMID 0202364]],10 (5):449-464, 1978. (Abstract available at Entrez PubMed ; Article available at DY.Com)

For further information about Dr. Gerson and the Ge

 

[Hip]

I wonder if @mariovitali might be interested in this thread.

Mario was able to attain remission from his post-finasteride syndrome (an ME/CFS-like condition) by taking a supplement protocol that included tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA), a bile acid which is found in trace amounts in human bile (though at high amounts in bear bile, and bear bile has been used medicinally in China for thousands of years).

Mario's protocol is designed to reduce endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress, and Mario reckons he cured himself by means of lowering his ER stress levels via his protocol. TUDCA is a supplement known to lower ER stress, and I believe the most important supplement in Mario's protocol.

Now it has been shown that cholic acid, one of the primary bile acids secreted by the human liver, also reduces endoplasmic reticulum stress (although in the liver itself, it seems, bile acids may actually increase ER stress). So as coffee enemas increase the secretion of bile acids from the liver, it seems likely that coffee enemas may also serve to reduce endoplasmic reticulum stress.

If coffee enemas do reduce ER stress, it occurred to me that this could help explain the claims of anti-cancer effects from coffee enemas, since numerous studies have linked ER stress and cancer. For example, see this review paper:

Endoplasmic reticulum stress, genome damage, and cancer

A large body of work has focused on the activation of the ER stress response in cancer cells to facilitate their survival and tumor growth; however, there are some studies suggesting that the ER stress response can also mitigate cancer progression. Despite these contradictions, it is clear that the ER stress response is closely associated with cancer biology.

So generally speaking, the ER stress response seems to promote cancer growth and survival; thus if coffee enemas reduce ER stress, this conceivably could have an anti-cancer effect.

 

[douglasmich]

Sounds plausible. However the main reason CEs are used in cancer protocals is not because they have an anti cancer effect (which they probably do) but to support the bile flow during a herx as tumours break down rapidly overloading the body. Gerson was who made it popular and many followed.

I was doing 1 coffee enema a day for about 2 months. If i made the strength strong enough i could literally hear and feel my galbladder squirt a lot of bile. Definitely needs more scientific investigation.

I know many on other forums use them when herxing from antibitoics. It all makes sense really. The body can only eliminate so much at a time, when your on antibitoics killing off pathogens, or on a cancer regime breaking down tumours, the liver really needs to do alot of work, and helping it out by stimulating bile multiple times a day seems to be benefical.

In Gersons book Results of 50 cases he stated that if enemas are done frequently electrolytes must be checked daily. He was a scientist and a physician not a crack pot. Sadly this industry is profit driven so the geniuses go unheard of

 

[Hip]

I was doing 1 coffee enema a day for about 2 months. If i made the strength strong enough i could literally hear and feel my galbladder squirt a lot of bile.

I wonder if instead of coffee enemas, if you would get the same benefits from the Jarrow Bile Acid Factors supplement that Mario is currently taking? Instead of using the coffee enemas to stimulate extra bile secretion, you might get the same results from taking supplemental bile acids. Might be an interesting experiment.

 

[douglasmich]

I think they both have their own benefit.

Ive been taking ox bile for a while. Helps digestion but nothing like a CE in regards to sympathetic dominance etc

 

[Undisclosed]

Sounds plausible. However the main reason CEs are used in cancer protocals is not because they have an anti cancer effect (which they probably do) but to support the bile flow during a herx as tumours break down rapidly overloading the body. Gerson was who made it popular and many followed.

I was doing 1 coffee enema a day for about 2 months. If i made the strength strong enough i could literally hear and feel my galbladder squirt a lot of bile. Definitely needs more scientific investigation.

I know many on other forums use them when herxing from antibitoics. It all makes sense really. The body can only eliminate so much at a time, when your on antibitoics killing off pathogens, or on a cancer regime breaking down tumours, the liver really needs to do alot of work, and helping it out by stimulating bile multiple times a day seems to be benefical.

In Gersons book Results of 50 cases he stated that if enemas are done frequently electrolytes must be checked daily. He was a scientist and a physician not a crack pot. Sadly this industry is profit driven so the geniuses go unheard of

I see you posted some 'scientific' articles by Gerson. How about some actual supporting research done by others that supports his contentions. I will save you time, there aren't any.

Could you answer my original questions rather than providing anecdotes.

Coffee enemas are not used in any reputable and science-based cancer protocols. There is absolutely zero evidence that coffee enemas 'support the bile flow during a herx as tumours break down rapidly overloading the body'. Coffee enemas do not break down tumours if they did don't you think coffee drinkers would remain cancer free because the cancer cells would be destroyed early on as a tumour would never be able to grow? A herx occurs when rapid die off of bacteria occurs when taking antibiotics. Coffee is not an antimicrobial therefore can't cause a 'herx'. I know others loosely apply it to any symptoms caused by un-named toxins leaving the body. How to you think cancer spreads through the body -- cancer cells break off from the original tumour and grow elsewhere in the body. From what you are describing, CE's would promote metastasis. Those ignorant charlatans who suggest to people with cancer that a CE is a cure are committing fraud and it's cruel and the worst form of quackery. Using good nutrition as an adjunct to cancer treatment certainly can't hurt but promoting extreme nutritional protocols to cure cancer is outright quackery.

What does all this have to do with ME anyways? It just shows how original quackery is taken and used for other illnesses and ME is a huge target of the charlatans and quacks.

I am sorry but you can't hear your gallbladder doing anything and unless you have stones in it, you can't feel it either. Coffee Enemas do not increase bile flow.

Coffee does not break down tumours in the body. I suppose if you take some tumour cells and put them in a Petrie dish and pour coffee on them, it might cause lysis but this doesn't happen within the body. Again, please explain to me how you take coffee into the rectum and it is able to target and break down a tumour without affecting any other cells or organs in the body? It's not difficult and you should be able to provide an answer.

It's possible to be a scientist and a crack pot at the same time. Stating that coffee enemas destroy tumours is about as crack pot as it can get. The Gerson Therapy was developed by Dr Max Gerson (1881-1959) and first used in the 1920´s as a treatment for an incurable form of TB, where he achieved some good results but TB isn't cancer. TB and malnutrition often go hand in hand, so it's not surprising re: the results. The Gerson Therapy is an extreme diet therapy used primarily by people who already have a chronic illness. Coffee enemas are just a small part of it. At the recent Invest in ME conference where serious science was being addressed CE's were not mentioned nor extreme diets as a treatment or a cure. Sadly the Internet is rife with quackery and I think patients should be allowed to discuss the pros/cons of therapies and the underlying science related to ME symptoms and really if the science exists it should be used as a helpful tool. Sweeping generalizations and outlandish anecdotes really aren't helpful. I am not dismissing anecdotes as they can be helpful to many, they are not helpful though in the context of using them to provide scientific proof to a therapy that is promoted as a cure for cancer.

From Rational Wiki:

The Gerson Therapy or Gerson Method is a particularly dangerous form of cancerquackery invented by Dr. Max Gerson (1881-1959) which continues to be peddled by his daughter Charlotte. The Gersons claim that cancer is caused by "toxins" in food that create an imbalance of potassium and sodium in the body. The alleged method for "curing" this problem is an extremely low sodium-high potassium diet including lots of juiced raw and/or organic fruits and vegetables, massive amounts of vitamin supplements, and coffee enemas. This is supposed to flush out the "toxins" and "repair" the liver. Most of the "research" supporting the therapy is in the form of case studies by Max Gerson. The National Cancer Institute reviewed some of his case studies and found the method to be ineffective.'

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...about-the-gerson-therapy-and-cancer-quackery/
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-price-of-cancer-quackery/
http://skepdic.com/gersontherapy.html
http://www.ncahf.org/articles/c-d/caquackery.html
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...acist-what-are-the-benefits-of-coffee-enemas/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1805327/?page=1

 

[Violeta]

@douglasmich , I don't know if you have heard of a Dr. Gonzalez, but he used coffee enemas as part of his cancer treatment protocol, too.

http://www.dr-gonzalez.com/treatment.htm

And there was a Dr. Kelly, too, using it as part of his protocol, but he has passed on. Let me see if I spelled his name correctly.

Sorry, I spelled Dr. Kelley's name wrong.

But here's a link to some of his information.

https://www.cancertutor.com/metabolic/

 

[douglasmich]

Yes Gonzalez was a great doctor.

Its sad his clinical trial was screwed over. They gave him patients that could not even eat.

He followed the work of Dr Kelly. Kelly was inspired by alot of gersons work.

 

[douglasmich]

Here is gonzalez talking about the history of the coffee enema and the biological basis

excuse the title lol

 

[whodathunkit]

Coffee enemas are not used in any reputable and science-based cancer protocols.

My father died very, very quickly on a reputable, science-based cancer protocol. Kinda wish I'd known more about coffee enemas back then.

At any rate, it goes back to the old argument around here: what is a scientific study besides a big ol' quantified anecdote? Often a quantified anecdote that can't be reliably replicated.

Not saying studies don't have worht, they do, but why do we always, always come back around to the argument about studies v. anecdotes? If I waited around for studies I'd still be sitting around wondering if I'd ever get better instead of able to do an hour of Pilates today.

@ahmo, can you direct me to a good set of instructions for a coffee enema? I'm finally going to give them a try. Or do I just have to settle down and read this thread?

 

[Undisclosed]

My father died very, very quickly on a reputable, science-based cancer protocol. Kinda wish I'd known about coffee enemas back then.

I am sorry your father died but if he did coffee enema's, the results would have been the same. Coffee enema's can 't selectively kill tumours. The quacks instill baseless hope -- it is abusive, disgusting, and makes me ill. Steve Jobs and Michael Landon both died because they believed that nutrition protocols could cure them. Michael Landon would have died no matter what -- he was doing the Gerson protocol. Steve Jobs could have been saved. The only cures for cancer lies in conventional therapy, not quacky bullshit treatments.

 

[whodathunkit]

The quacks instill baseless hope -- it is abusive, disgusting, and makes me ill.

Hmmm. What makes me ill, disgusts me, and what I consider not only abusive but fascist are those sadly hopeless people who would restrict the choices of those who don't hold their views because NOT SCIENCE. Or something.

Please note I'm NOT saying you are one of those people...of course you're not. Just using language you're apparently comfortable with so we're all on the same page.

At any rate you're making an awful lot of declarations as if they're fact, when they're not. Neither of us knows what could have saved my father, or Steve Jobs. Both of whom were famous for doing exactly WTF they wanted to do, even if dear ol' dad was famous in a much smaller circle. They both did, and they both died, one from science and one from "quacky bullshit". Not sure why anyone would want to deprive them of their choices.

 

[Mij]

@douglasmich , I don't know if you have heard of a Dr. Gonzalez, but he used coffee enemas as part of his cancer treatment protocol, too.

http://www.dr-gonzalez.com/treatment.htm

Nicholas James Gonzalez, M.D., (December 28, 1947 – July 21, 2015) was a New York-based physician known for developing the Gonzalez regimen (or Gonzalez protocol), an alternative cancer treatment.[1][2][3] Gonzalez's treatments are based on the belief that pancreatic enzymes are the body's main defense against cancer and can be used as a cancer treatment.[4] His methods have been generally rejected by the medical community,[1] and he has been characterized as aquack and fraud by other doctors[3] and health fraud watchdog groups. In 1994 Gonzalez was reprimanded and placed on two years' probation by the New York state medical board for "departing from accepted practice".[1][3]

In one non-randomized clinical trial of terminally ill patients with pancreatic cancer, the Gonzalez-treated patients were found to have died much earlier than those treated with conventional chemotherapy. A better quality of life was reported by the chemotherapy arm.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Gonzalez_(physician)

 

[douglasmich]

They gave Gonzalez patients that couldn't eat. So obviously chemotherapy is going to "work" better.

Sad story about those trials.

 

[douglasmich]

Hmmm. What makes me ill, disgusts me, and what I consider not only abusive but fascist are those sadly hopeless people who would restrict the choices of those who don't hold their views because NOT SCIENCE. Or something.

Please note I'm NOT saying you are one of those people...of course you're not. Just using language you're apparently comfortable with so we're all on the same page.

At any rate you're making an awful lot of declarations as if they're fact, when they're not. Neither of us knows what could have saved my father, or Steve Jobs. Both of whom were famous for doing exactly WTF they wanted to do, even if dear ol' dad was famous in a much smaller circle. They both did, and they both died, one from science and one from "quacky bullshit". Not sure why anyone would want to deprive them of their choices.

Well said.

I remember an interview of Gonzalez talking about choices. He was saying many patients are pressured into seeing them. He tells them to choose what THEY want to do. Weather it be chemotherapy or an alternative treatment

We should all be doing what WE want to do.

Coffee enemas have never been touted as a cure for ME. I just made this thread in the alternative treatment section because myself and many others get symptom relief from this therapy without pharmaceuticals. I have also never claimed they destroy tumours, only that caffeine rectally administered stimulates bile flow, which improves detoxification.

If people want to sit in their house waiting for pharmaceutical based medicine to provide a cure then that's fine. We all have our choices. But some like to think outside the box. I think its called critical thinking. I refuse to believe that anything outside orthodox medicine is a total scam. Sure there are scams but there are good treatments and physicians. However i do tend to be more bias as i know close family and friends who have literally saved their lives with nutritional immunology.

 

[barbc56]

There's a very insightful book called This Book Won't Cure Cancer by Gideon Burrows who has been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor. This blog reviews the book. Even if you disagree with what the author is saying or the conclusions he's reached, he brings up a lot of issues that are certainly food for thought.

Here, the author talks about some of the inaccuracies that are used to justify alternative treatments.

He talks about the false promises of unconventional cancer doctors like Burzynski, and the impetus to “try anything.” He says it is not reasonable to “try anything” if there is no evidence that “anything” works. People say it’s worth trying because there is no evidence that it doesn’t work. He spots the fallacy in that reasoning:

"There are many millions of things that have not been proven to not cure cancer, but mostly because many millions of things have never been tried. That does not mean they are a potential cure, nor that they are sensible to pursue.

What if he proposed that blowing up 100 red balloons would cure cancer? Is that really any more ridiculous than coffee enemas? When does anything become something we should try, and who gets to decide what is too ridiculous to try? Even alternative practitioners disagree with each other. Where do you draw the line? If a treatment has not been proven to work, is not biologically plausible, has not been tested in animals, and is not backed by the majority of scientific experts, shouldn’t it fall on the same side of the line as the red balloons?"

He doesn’t blame people who go off in pursuit of a promised miracle cure. He understands their desperation and the comfort of having a hope to cling to. Rather, he blames those "who offer that anything without a fair, accurate, and accountable foundation. The power and responsibility to advise about cancer treatment “should only be earned by results, proof, and accountability.”

My bold.

Burrows is not saying alternative treatments should be banned but that any treatment, whether alternative or not, needs to be held to a high standard of proof. He asks questions that are important to consider when choosing a treatment.

In my opinion, this is the bottom line.

Is it rude or cruel to confront people who talk rubbish about cancer? If we don’t, are we allowing potentially more damage to be done just to avoid a personal feeling of discomfort? “How far does our reluctance to criticise mean that energy, passion and grief is channeled away from cancer cure research, not towards it?

I do think "fair debate" might be a better choice of words instead of confronting or criticizing.

 

[Valentijn]

If people want to sit in their house waiting for pharmaceutical based medicine to provide a cure then that's fine. We all have our choices. But some like to think outside the box. I think its called critical thinking.

It's not critical thinking. If it were critical thinking, there would at the very least be a plausible mechanism by which the "treatment" operates. But pseudoscientific explanations, by definition, are not scientific.

That was when the coffee enema was administered to stimulate the flow of bile and to excrete the toxins.

Which toxins are being removed? What proof is there that those toxins are present before treatment, and reduced afterward? "Toxins" are an extremely broad and vague category, which is completely meaningless without specific naming of those toxins. After all, different toxins behave very differently, and are often handled differently by the body.

Why does rectal coffee supposedly stimulate the removal of these toxins, but not rectally inserted tea, or orally inserted coffee? As long as we are guessing and extrapolating, in the absence of scientific evidence, are we sure that the phase of the moon isn't actually the relevant factor, as its gravity helps move the colon into optimal position?

Putting faith into a treatment in the face of a complete lack of scientific evidence or a scientifically plausible explanation is simply faith healing. All existing evidence shows that it isn't effective, but it does generate strong emotional reactions among believers. And as I've said before in similar discussions about similar treatments, I have no problem with people having non-scientific beliefs, even in the context of medicine.

The problem arises when people attempt to frame those faith-based beliefs in a scientific context, to justify and legitimize them. It doesn't work, and people who actually understand what science is are going to get annoyed and tell you why you're wrong. Better to just accept that your belief in a treatment isn't rational or scientific, but that you simply like it because it brings you some level of comfort.