Coffee Enemas!!

[Valentijn]

In other words, perhaps CBS C699T +/+ and various other problem SNP remain relatively harmless, except in certain contexts.

In the case of your organophosphate problem, the gene has never worked properly, but has merely gone unnoticed until something comes along and exploits that. In the case of CBS, it has been shown to work properly, and even slightly better than normal, for people with C699T +/+. There is nothing to exploit.

That doesn't mean that something isn't causing CBS to dramatically malfunction, but it does exclude CBS C699T from playing that role. If there is something interfering with CBS in such a manner, it would have to be entirely external, and would have nothing to do with specific SNPs on the gene.

Also, it's generally claimed by Yasko and her followers that CBS C699T +/- and A360A +/- and +/+ also cause problems, not just C699T +/+. If well over 50% of the world's population had this supposed vulnerability to exploit, it would be massive and it would be extremely noticeable.

And for the 31 ME patients from this forum who I have 23andMe data for, 2 are +/+ for C699T and 12 are +/-. For their ethnically matched controls, 5 are +/+ and 17 are +/-. If CBS is causing problems, it's very unlikely it's contributing to ME, and is certainly not looking to be more prevalent in ME.

I also still have not seen anyone attempt to explain how synonymous alleles in exons could ever cause problems, such as for CBS A360A and CBS N212N.

That is of course assuming that there is evidence to show that those with both CBS C699T +/+ and ME/CFS do have a higher incidence of sulfate/sulfur problems.

There isn't. Just anecdotal "clinical observation" (no data provided) combined with an inability to understand prevalence rates in healthy populations, or an unwillingness to acknowledge that prevalence.

 

[Hip]

There isn't. Just anecdotal "clinical observation" (no data provided)

Perhaps this might be a good subject for a forum poll: Do you have CBS C699T +/+ or CBS C699T +/- and do you have sulfur / sulfate / sulfite sensitivity?

I am not sure which of these three (sulfur, sulfate or sulfite) relates to CBS C699T though.

Here it says: "the FDA estimates that 1% of people are sulfite-sensitive and 5% of those also suffer from asthma."


I am generally doubtful about the utility of 23andme results in uncovering and addressing health issues; but because I don't know enough about the subject of SNPs, so I don't want to express strong opinions on this matter.



@da2020, can I ask: did your 23andme results lead your to discover that you are sulfur / sulfate / sulfite sensitive, or did you know this anyway, and then you linked this sensitivity to your CBS C699T +/+ mutation afterwards?

In other words, did your 23andme results actually help you uncover this important health issue?

 

[da2020]

Just found this list of 8 SNPs linked to celiac. A quick check on 23andme finds that I have 3 out of 8 of those SNPs (two as -/+ and one as +/+). But does this relate to gluten intolerance? One study found that there is an immunological difference between the celiac and gluten intolerance: in gluten intolerance, only the innate immune system in the gut responds to gluten; whereas in celiac, both the innate and adaptive immune systems respond to gluten, and it is the latter that causes intestinal damage.

I don't know. I know I'm celiac and that it runs in my family (Scandinavian blood is more vulnerable to it). A lot of things aside from gluten, like food poisoning, can cause intestinal damage too. But celiac brings on comorbid conditions like thyroid disease, painful skin rashes, skin cancer, other autoimmune disorders, etc, so you often know you have celiac not by looking at the intestine per se but looking at a cluster of other diseases (including severe malnutrition despite eating well). Sometimes the intestine actually looks normal on tests for celiac because a biopsy is a tiny piece and you can have normal areas and bad areas.

There's so much grey area across the gluten spectrum the best thing sometimes is just going 30-60 days without any trace of gluten and seeing if you feel significantly better. It takes that long at a minimum to clear it from the system and let possible inflammation settle down - way longer than other food tests. There's also no "try it after not eating it for a while and see how you react". I feel fine if I eat gluten on occasion (not good for me, I know). I made the mistake once of thinking, hey I feel fine, I don't have celiac after all! Within months the thyroid disease and skin cancer all came back with a vengeance. Stop eating it, they go away. It's like flipping a switch in my immune system.

 

[da2020]

Perhaps this might be a good subject for a forum poll: Do you have CBS C699T +/+ or CBS C699T +/- and do you have sulfur / sulfate / sulfite sensitivity?

I am not sure which of these three (sulfur, sulfate or sulfite) relates to CBS C699T though.

Here it says: "the FDA estimates that 1% of people are sulfite-sensitive and 5% of those also suffer from asthma."


I am generally doubtful about the utility of 23andme results in uncovering and addressing health issues; but because I don't know enough about the subject of SNPs, so I don't want to express strong opinions on this matter.



@da2020, can I ask: did your 23andme results lead your to discover that you are sulfur / sulfate / sulfite sensitive, or did you know this anyway, and then you linked this sensitivity to your CBS C699T +/+ mutation afterwards?

In other words, did your 23andme results actually help you uncover this important health issue?

Great idea on the poll.

All of my unresolved lab tests and strange reactions to things finally made sense when I read about CBS and the myriad mechanisms there (note I also have 3 BHMT ++ and each of those also act like a CBS + even if you don't have any CBS+.)

I have very low homocysteine (crazy abnormally low according to my Dr), an intolerance to things like ALA, glutathione, NAC, I'll pass out from a methyl B12 shot (doctors were always mystified by that one), very elevated liver enzymes despite healthy living and no alcohol, abnormal amino acid tests, etc. All of those are said to relate to a CBS upregulation.

I had never known about or noticed I reacted to thiols or sulfate/sulfite in my life, but after reading about CBS I tried a totally thiol and sulfur free diet and within 48 hours was a new person (so fast the change!). I also took Ornithine/Arginine, Acetyl and L-Carnitine, and Malic Acid as supports. My need for caffeine to get through the day is totally gone, I have tons of energy now.

Despite the diet I still can't tolerate much b12 or folinic acid or methyl folate -- more than a tiny dose once a week makes me unfunctional. One Adeno B12 sublingual will actually make me literally unable to form a sentence. I was in public when that kicked in and it was terrifying. It was like I had lost my mind. A mini burst of hepatic encephalopathy basically. With CBS problems b12 can turn into ammonia like sulfur does according to what I've read. I also can't tolerate B6 unless it's P5P (B6 is in tons of supplements, it's even added to single amino acids).

What prompted this investigation is that my health is pretty good, so many things have been resolved, but my b12 reaction mystery still lingered and I was determined to solve it and this is where that investigation lead me. Since genetics is big in the b12 world these days, I went in that direction with my research.

I honestly feel that with this resolved I'm functioning as close to 100% as I've ever been in my life. I even had to have a wisdom tooth removed 2 weeks ago and the surgeon said I'm healing like a 19 year old (I'm 46).

 

[jengonwin]

@Hip tested the ph today

My distilled water is PH 6

A Gerson coffee brew (3tbsp/1quart) is PH 6

Adding 1/2tsp baking soda made the coffee brew PH 8

So it seems the PH is NOT what caused irritation in my situation as the water which is PH 6 doesnt cause issues alone. Because the irritation only happened the times i was unable to expel it, i think it must be due to the chemicals in the coffee.

I suspect 1/4tsp baking soda will make the PH just right at 7.

Anyway, i will try the enema today that i just made. And do another right after to clean out any lasting coffee in the colon.

Hope i can make these work, as my migraines have been quite bad lately.

 

[jengonwin]

Well i tried the coffee enema. Sadly got some mild irritation right away. I did a plain water enema after but it didn't seem to change anything, so i guess its just the coffee doing it.

Quite disappointing, as they help so much.

Before i throw in the towel, i am going to try a caffeine enema.

According to this article, Gerson used caffeine potassium citrate before incorporating the coffee.

"For some time after learning of this research by Professors Meyer and Heubner, Dr. Max Gerson used a combination of the two drugs, caffeine and potassium citrate, in the form of drops which were added to the enema water. But he found later that a solution simply made by boiling coffee grounds possibly was more effective and much more easily available to everybody who wanted to take coffee enemas. Thus, Dr. Gerson incorporated a program of detoxification using coffee enemas into the Gerson Therapy, and the same procedure remains today."

The solution was 10% with 5% caffeine benzoate and 5% potassium citrate. In an early addition of one of his books i found on the net, he used 30 drops of this solution in chamomile tea for a gentler enema. That is around 150mg caffeine potassium citrate i think.

I found some pure caffeine citrate powder here

And some caffeine anhydrous here

Also i found a small discussion on caffeine types and intestinal irritation here

So @Hip i was wondering if you could help me out here, as i am sort of nothing close to having any sort of biochemistry understanding haha. Is the caffine citrate comparable to the caffeine potassium citrate Gerson used? If so, to replicate his method would i just dissolve 150mg into an enema solution (trying a low dose first of course) ?

Thanks heaps

 

[jengonwin]

If anyone happened to care

I tried a caffeine enema. Used 50mg caffeine anhydrous in 1000ml of chamomile tea. Neutral PH.

Had great pain releif but few hours later developed some irritation in my colon area. Next day still there, just like with coffee.

So i don't know what to think of it. Maybe caffeine itself is an irritant? Or maybe the release of caustic bile is doing it?

No idea. Plain chamomile tea enema gives 0 irritation. 50mg caffeine powder is so tiny!

Oh well. Guess i will have to give em up

 

[Aerowallah]

Bad luck, but as I said before you will probably have to quieten the inflammation of IBS before you can tolerate the CEs--and that goes for other CFS protocols. da2020 healed from IBS first before using CEs to detox.

 

[jengonwin]

Yeah.

Will just do chamomile for now. Might try again in a few months

 

[Aerowallah]

One reason I do CEs is because chlorella gives me diarrhoea. People swear by it but it irritates hell out of me. I may never figure that one out. Some say 30% of the pop. can't deal with it. Have you checked out clorella or charcoal or the clays?

 

[SueJohnPat]

You might want to read Dr Ritchie Shoemaker's work. In conditions such as mold illness and Lyme, Shoemaker uses the drug cholestyramine to bind to toxins (such as mycotoxins) carried in the bile in the small intestine.

Bile is one of the body's mechanisms of getting rid of toxins, but because most of the bile is re-absorbed and reused, the toxins can also be re-absorbed, so bile is not a very efficient means of disposing of toxins. Because cholestyramine binds to cholesterol, bile acids and toxins, and because cholestyramine cannot be absorbed into the body, it more efficiently removes the toxins that would normally be expelled less efficiently by the bile.

My guess is that any treatment which increases bile flow may also have the effect of increasing the efficiency of toxin removal via bile.



Some Useful Terminology:

Any herb or medication which stimulates the production of bile in the liver is called a choleretic.

A related concept is a hydrocholeretic, which is a herb or medication which increase the watery volume of bile produced in the liver, but without increasing the amount of bile acids produced (in other words, a hydrocholeretic causes the secretion of more watery bile).

Any herb or medication which stimulates the release of bile from its storage place in the gallbladder is called a cholagogue.





It says here that:

Of course this claim again appears to be unsubstantiated, but if it did turn out to be true, then coffee enemas would be a good method to promote efficient toxin expulsion.

From this study, it seems that caffeine is hydrocholeretic — ie, caffeine increases the watery volume of bile produced in the liver, without increasing the amount of bile acids in that volume.

I am using a small coffee enema once or twice a week in addition to cholystyramine for " mold" detox. I'm only using a standard " fleet" enema amount 2 to 4 ounces. I don't really believe all the Gerson hype but I don't think you can totally discount coffee enemas..

I think moderation is the key here. I'm going by feel here, frankly I have had it with doctors ( no I don't blame them at all just the hierarchy and misinformation about Cfs) and test for the most part. I have been tested every which way and have no " health" issues per what standard medical care can give me. I decided to become my own Cfs Doctor by shadowing treatments. My drug knowledge gives me an edge, I am not afraid to try Meds and my family doctor works with me. Over the last 2 years I have made tremendous progress.

I was a community pharmacist for 23 years. I'm improved greatly and we remediated mold in our house. I would not do the large amounts of volume due to what Jonathan Edwards mentioned.

I think getting conventional cancer treatment is essential because unlike Cfs cancer had been studied extensively.
I think there is a middle " ground" here. In a perfect world I would back everything up with double blind " studues" but in the Cfs world that gave us GET and a lot of bs. I think the coffee enemas are helping me . Not a miracle but they help clear my " head" I have always been a coffee drinker also.

 

[Jonathan Edwards]

I think there is a middle " ground" here. In a perfect world I would back everything up with double blind " studues" but in the Cfs world that gave us GET and a lot of bs. I think the coffee enemas are helping me . Not a miracle but they help clear my " head" I have always been a coffee drinker also.

Fair enough but in fact the GET studies were not double blind, or even single blind. That was the problem.

 

[SueJohnPat]

Too bad GET was taken seriously. Cfs is a problem " due to the economic impact it would have on government, society. .This is a subject I may be researching .
Powers that be not acknowledging " inconvenient truths." Bad Science " supporting " economic expediency.
So glad it is being debunked. Personally wasted 3 years of my life due to this. I do " get" pesky.

 

[Pauline91]

Coffee enemas have been core to my 4 years of healing. My liver was always my weak point. I no longer need to see an acupuncturist to help me. I feel confident in my detox efforts.

Hi,
I am curious about your detox protocol, as I am starting one myself. Has it helped you to regain better health?
I only did one coffee enema but had bloating and constipation for a week after.

 

[ahmo]

Hi @Pauline91 My detox took nearly 4 years. It didn't shift the baseline ME, but I essentially eliminated all the noxious symptoms I had, including histamine and nervous system. I read in Dietrich Klinghardt's protocol that toxic metals bind to the zinc receptors. When I reached the end of my process, my body wanted a big handful of zinc. Which I did via footbath. That seemed a turning point in my levels of irritability.

I never had bloating and constipation, but I would get so irritable and restless. That's why I staqrted adding aminos and minerals to my final cleansing enema, and footbaths. Since I finished the process, I've been much calmer, though my head's still full of chatter. This seems to be as good as it gets for me. good luck.

 

[poohsilk]

@ahmo ahmohow long to hold additive supps water post CE ?