Clostridium Butyricum - A Game Changer?

[actup]

I previously commented a few posts above re: Miyarisan's(c. butyricum) positive effects for me personally. I just now found a research paper on c. butyricum describing it's efficacy in vascular dementia and how it's presence in the gut significantly increases microbiome diversity. Worth a read (or skip to "results" which is what most of us probably do anyway ;-).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4615854/

 

[MeSci]

In MICE...???

 

[tango]

I previously commented a few posts above re: Miyarisan's(c. butyricum) positive effects for me personally. I just now found a research paper on c. butyricum describing it's efficacy in vascular dementia and how it's presence in the gut significantly increases microbiome diversity. Worth a read (or skip to "results" which is what most of us probably do anyway ;-).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4615854/

Increasing microbiome diversity appears to be significant in chronic fatigue syndrome so I'm all for it.

I have been using the AOR Probiotic-3 but my Miyarisan arrived fresh from Japan this week so I'm going to give those a go and see if they are any different to the AOR. The AOR has definitely helped mood and energy so even though they are expensive I plan to continue taking them and have also been having some dairy and a wider selection of prebiotic foods to increase gut flora.

I recently added in Garden of Life probiotics, I'm not sure if they help but it's more diversity if they take up residence in the gut

 

[tango]

One interesting thing... the miyarisan instructions say take it after a meal, the AOR says take it on an empty stomach. To me after a meal makes more sense as it has probiotic material to work on and can help digestion

 

[Asklipia]

I have been using the AOR Probiotic-3 but my Miyarisan arrived fresh from Japan this week so I'm going to give those a go and see if they are any different to the AOR.

The C. butyricum in Miyarisan is MIYAIRI 588, the C. butyricum in AOR is TO-A

An intesresting study about MIYAIRI 588 :
A Single Strain of Clostridium butyricum Induces Intestinal IL-10-Producing Macrophages to Suppress Acute Experimental Colitis in Mice
This has been immensely beneficial for us. However, do keep in mind that at a certain point, it might induce oxalate dumping, which is no fun, even though it is beneficial in the long term.
Be well!

 

[tango]

The C. butyricum in Miyarisan is MIYAIRI 588, the C. butyricum in AOR is TO-A

An intesresting study about MIYAIRI 588 :
A Single Strain of Clostridium butyricum Induces Intestinal IL-10-Producing Macrophages to Suppress Acute Experimental Colitis in Mice
This has been immensely beneficial for us. However, do keep in mind that at a certain point, it might induce oxalate dumping, which is no fun, even though it is beneficial in the long term.
Be well!

Thanks, it will be interesting to see how the different strains compare. I may even try taking both at some stage and see if I get extra benefit!

 

[Asklipia]

I may even try taking both at some stage and see if I get extra benefit!

When the oxalate dumping kicks in, you might find reading this thread useful : Oxalate dumping - A Probiotic Solution?
My advice : go slow.

 

[MeSci]

The C. butyricum in Miyarisan is MIYAIRI 588, the C. butyricum in AOR is TO-A

An intesresting study about MIYAIRI 588 :
A Single Strain of Clostridium butyricum Induces Intestinal IL-10-Producing Macrophages to Suppress Acute Experimental Colitis in Mice
This has been immensely beneficial for us. However, do keep in mind that at a certain point, it might induce oxalate dumping, which is no fun, even though it is beneficial in the long term.
Be well!

There is no reason to suspect that an experiment in specially-bred lab mice will translate to effects in humans.

 

[adreno]

There is no reason to suspect that an experiment in specially-bred lab mice will translate to effects in humans.

Do you accept human in vitro studies as having higher value?

http://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2180-12-100

 

[tango]

When the oxalate dumping kicks in, you might find reading this thread useful : Oxalate dumping - A Probiotic Solution?
My advice : go slow.

I'm going to have to look into this some more but I have never noticed negative effects from probiotics and I've been taking them for a long time now. People mention oxalate dumping in lots of contexts. I did a low oxalate diet for a month and can't say I noticed any difference. No improvement in symptoms, no dumping. It was just the usual ups and downs you get with chronic fatigue syndrome but no especially bad days or good.

 

[MeSci]

Do you accept human in vitro studies as having higher value?

http://bmcmicrobiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2180-12-100

I had a quick look, but I'm afraid my brain isn't working well enough to analyse it or locate my discussions on this and other issues. I just happened to remember the invalidity of specially-bred lab mice. But I suspect that only actual humans are reliable models. I think that there is a thread somewhere about the general invalidity of research data. I don't know whether it is here or not:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?blog/mesci.6237/

 

[lookingfortruth]

What kind of prebiotic/ foods would feed C.butyricum the most to help it to establish?

 

[SherDa]

@SherDa If you are still visiting PR, please do post your protocol on acetylcholine / slow gut motility - I'd suggest a new thread for it, since it's a detour from this c butyricum thread. Tell us please!

Sorry! I haven't been around in a while.

To increase acetylcholine, I take:
Acetyl-l-carnitine (to donate the acetyl group)
Choline source (either plain choline or alpha GPC or sunflower lecithin, all seem to work)
Manganese
Thiamine (I like the Solgar 500 mg (super potency)

This is generally enough to stimulate colonic motility but electrolytes are also really important and sometimes limit things. I taste-test electrolytes by using 1/8 tsp of the following in 1 cup of warm water (testing each separately not mixed together). If it tastes sweet or delicious or just like good refreshing water, then that seems to indicate a deficiency in that electrolyte. If it tastes awful, then I don't need it. It seems to me that the taste buds can be trusted to let me know if I'm low in a specific electrolyte.

For magnesium taste test, I use Epsom salt.
For potassium taste test, I use Now potassium chloride powder.
For sodium taste test, I use Real Salt.

I don't know of a taste test for calcium, but my calcium is frequently low, especially if I'm taking vitamin K2, so even though calcium has a reputation for being constipating, I find it relieves colonic dysmotility. So I test the others first and supplement them if I'm low, and if it still doesn't help, then I know it's probably also low calcium contributing.

I hope this isn't confusing. My colonic dysmotility is a combo of low acetylcholine and low electrolytes. So, it can feel like a lot to manage at first, but it's better than not being able to eat! Just taking the acetylcholine supplements helped me for a good long while but eventually I needed to manage electrolytes too. I've been using this protocol since January, and I'm disappointed that I still have to manage it, but at least it has never failed me.

 

[tango]

I taste-test electrolytes by using 1/8 tsp of the following in 1 cup of warm water (testing each separately not mixed together). If it tastes sweet or delicious or just like good refreshing water, then that seems to indicate a deficiency in that electrolyte. If it tastes awful, then I don't need it. It seems to me that the taste buds can be trusted to let me know if I'm low in a specific electrolyte.

For magnesium taste test, I use Epsom salt.
For potassium taste test, I use Now potassium chloride powder.
For sodium taste test, I use Real Salt.

This is interesting. I have been trying to work on increasing cellular hydration and getting more electrolytes and I didn't know how to tell what I need. I have potassium gluconate. I have to say when I drink it it isn't especially strong tasting to me so I must be low on it. I'll have a think about the magnesium. I have adverse reactions so I don't really want to use it

 

[MeSci]

I'll have a think about the magnesium. I have adverse reactions so I don't really want to use it

What reactions do you have? I take 2 magnesium supplements and would be interested to know if either could be causing my adverse current symptoms.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Absolutely, a Game Changer.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

In addition to the previously mentioned benefits, I have experienced a nearly complete cessation of Multiple Chemical Sensitivity with Miyarisan supplementation.

 

[SherDa]

I just wanted to add another idea for anyone who might still be struggling. I stumbled across some blogs/websites the other day that linked gut motility to serotonin levels. I don't know how I've been reading about GI motility for months and haven't seen this sooner. I started taking serotonin-supportive supplements yesterday and they have made a pretty remarkable change in how I feel.

I thought my GI issues, low body temp, muscle spasms and hypersomnia were related to thyroid and I've been trying to support my thyroid for months but just wasn't getting very far despite extensive support (tyrosine, vitamin A, vitamin D, vitamin C, manganese, selenium, iron, B12, iodine, zinc).

It turns out that all of those symptoms can also be caused by low serotonin. All of the symptoms above just disappeared. (And the sugar addiction I've had since childhood seems to be gone?!) I'm responding really well to zinc + 5HTP, but I think I already have decent levels of the other cofactors. (This image is borrowed from the internet and not my own (http://lightchiro.com.au/nutrition/mental-health/)) Anyway, now that my guts are really in great working order, I guess I'll try to make sure they're filled with some serotonin producers and resistant starch/fibers.

 

[hmnr asg]

@SherDa if what you say is true, that "It turns out that all of those symptoms can also be caused by low serotonin." then taking an SSRI should fix all those problems, no?
I have taken SSRIs, they do zero for my CFS and related GI symptoms. I may get slightly more regular, that is it.

H

 

[SherDa]

SSRIs prevent serotonin from being sucked back up into the neurons. They make serotonin available in the synapse for a longer period of time, so if one's serotonin is really low (and it will be low or become low if methylation is poor or cofactors for production are lacking), I think it's possible an SSRI wouldn't work very well. It's also possible serotonin receptors might be downregulated, but I'm definitely not an SSRI expert. (I've been through this in the past, an initial good response to antidepressants followed by loss of efficacy.)

If I suspected low serotonin but didn't respond to SSRIs, I would first read up on low serotonin symptoms to try to determine if low serotonin was really the issue causing my symptoms. My plan of attack for any acute or chronic issue is always to look for deficiencies in necessary nutrients (vitamins, minerals and amino acids (especially if protein intake is poor)).

In my opinion, if people have nutrient deficiencies, they will not be able to restore their health. I'm not saying people shouldn't resort to using pharmaceuticals if they are desperate for symptomatic relief, but I personally have no faith that pharmaceuticals will ever allow or sustain health. They are only for managing symptoms of health problems.

And the benefit of correcting nutrient deficiencies is that you can potentially eliminate multiple issues. For example, if one discovers that their low serotonin is due to an actual or functional iron deficiency, then correcting that iron deficiency will also probably relieve fatigue and improve cognition and possibly improve things like thyroid function and bone loss. In other words, it will improve all of the problems that are caused or exacerbated by iron deficiency. If poor thyroid function is caused by lack iodine or selenium, then obviously iron will not fix that.

Correcting nutrient deficiencies and troubleshooting symptoms when I can't tolerate them has vastly improved my health. For example, when I thought I had methyl trapping symptoms, I was lucky enough to learn instead that they were low iron symptoms. Improving iron metabolism proved way more beneficial to me than trying to troubleshoot methyl trapping. I hope this is helpful somehow and not wasteful of your time. I guess I tend to make long brain-dump posts.