Oxalate Dumping - a Probiotic Solution?

[Asklipia]

In my case I have identified two triggers to oxalate dumping :
One is very hot weather for a long time. Drank a lot of water maybe THAT is the trigger?
The other seems related to sulphur : eating LOTS of garlic for a week and bathing in thermal water full of sulphur.

For those who desire or fear this oxalate dumping.

 

[Gondwanaland]

bathing in thermal water full of sulphur.

Perhaps this is why an Epsom Salt footbath landed me on ER?!?!?!?!

 

[Asklipia]

@Indie and @Gondwanaland To go back to the Vitamin K2-oxalate connection :
From the Chris Masterjohn article at Weston price :
"The kidneys likewise accumulate large amounts of vitamin K2 and secrete vitamin K-dependent proteins that inhibit the formation of calcium salts. Patients with kidney stones secrete this protein in its inactive form, which is between four and twenty times less effective than its active form at inhibiting the growth of calcium oxalate crystals, suggesting that vitamin K2 deficiency is a major cause of kidney stones.77"

77 = Vermeer C, Soute BAM, Ulrich MMW, van de Loo PGF. Vitamin K and the Urogenital Tract. Haemostasis. 1986; 16: 246-257.

I suppose that in the same manner that Vitamin K regulates blood coagulation, not only helps blood to coagulate as was thought at first, hence the "K", but also helps blood to get thinner, it governs the formation of oxalates.
Vitamin K2 must not only prevent the calcium oxalate crystals from forming, but must also dissolve them!!!

Our probiotics spewing out Vitamin K2 in our guts speed up the oxalate dumping process.
Which is why many people on PR were unable to supplement with K2. They must have been dumping oxalates.

 

[Oci]

@Indie and @Gondwanaland

I suppose that in the same manner that Vitamin K regulates blood coagulation, not only helps blood to coagulate as was thought at first, hence the "K", but also helps blood to get thinner, it governs the formation of oxalates.
Vitamin K2 must not only prevent the calcium oxalate crystals from forming, but must also dissolve them!!!.....

....Our probiotics spewing out Vitamin K2 in our guts speed up the oxalate dumping process.
Which is why many people on PR were unable to supplement with K2. They must have been dumping oxalates.

I am confused...Is it recommended to take K2 for oxalate problem even though it causes dumping?

You say: "Our probiotics spewing out Vitamin K2 in our guts speed up the oxalate dumping process." Is this all probiotics? Or which ones?

I have done better since reducing probiotics. I don't feel well on VSL#3. A whole lot more brain fog. Perhaps I should start low and go slow? Or perhaps it is not the right one for me?

This is all very complicated!

 

[Violeta]

Voilà justement ce qui fait que votre fille est muette." Molière
Le Médecin malgré lui, II, 4

This is what makes your girl mute? I don't read French very well, can you expand on that in English? Merci.

 

[alicec]

Thanks @Asklipia and @Indie for bringing this interesting information about K2 and oxalates. I have been taking 15 mg MK4 for some time now and have thought about increasing, but there always seemed to be something more pressing to try. I'll push it up to the top of the list.

 

[Violeta]

This is what makes your daughter mute? I don't read French very well, can you expand on that in English? Merci.

Oh, it's from a play!

 

[Violeta]

See what you think of this:

"The Low Oxalate Diet developers do not appear to have examined the question of what happens to the calcium freed from the calcium oxalate salts. However, at least in the case of autistic children, it is probable that they have low levels of Vitamin K and therefore low levels of carboxylated bone proteins. Thus the children presumably have little ability to manage this freed calcium, which will circulate unimpeded into the nervous system and other organs and tissues. This influx of unmanaged calcium into circulation and then into the nervous system is, I believe, the reason that so many autistic children are exhibiting adverse responses to the LOD, including seizures, behavioral regression, hyperactivity, and depression. These symptoms do not indicate that oxalates have moved from storage into circulation for transport to the disposal sites (termed “oxalate dumping” on the TLO listserve), but rather reflect the deleterious effects of an influx of unmanaged calcium into the nervous system."

 

[alicec]

I am confused...Is it recommended to take K2 for oxalate problem even though it causes dumping?

Many of the things recommended for oxalate problems cause dumping. This is exactly what we are trying to achieve - ie reducing body stores. However if this is too vigorous it can be very unpleasant. Hence the start low and go slow recommendation.

You say: "Our probiotics spewing out Vitamin K2 in our guts speed up the oxalate dumping process." Is this all probiotics? Or which ones?

As far as I'm aware only O. formigenes has been shown to directly speed up oxalate dumping (others just haven't been looked at). However several other probiotics (including VSL 3 or Vivomixx) have been tested for oxalate digesting capacity and the assumption is that like O. formigenes, they too have the capacity to stimulate dumping.

I'll upload a list of probiotics that have been tested for oxalate digesting capacity.

I intended to reply to your earlier post about VSL 3 but have been diverted by other things so will do it now. This has strong oxalate digesting capacity and one possible reason you could be having trouble with it is that it is stimulating oxalate dumping. You could try cutting back to maybe 1/4 sachet and building up.

Of course there could be other reasons for the problem. If you happen to be histamine sensitive then the L delbrueckii bulgaricus in it could be a problem as mentioned in your link. But I imagine you already know whether or not you are histamine sensitive.

The E.coli suggestion is just that - someone's theory - it may or may not be relevant. This is linked as I recall to the notion that some people have too many Lactobacilli which crowd out the E.coli, therefore they should not take probiotics containing Lactobacilli and instead try Mutaflor.

Certainly some people do seem to be sensitive to Lactobacilli, maybe D-lactate acidosis is a problem for them, maybe there are other reasons. Unfortunately it is a bit of a trial and error process.

If you think oxalates are a problem for you then VSL 3 could be very important. I have taken it for years and must say it didn't seem to do anything much one way or the other. I continued to take it because I was taking antibiotics for a long time and thought at the very least by flooding the gut with probiotics I would prevent something really nasty from taking up residence. That did indeed seem to be the case.

Towards the end of last year I had a uBiome analysis of the gut microbiota and was very disappointed to see that after years of swallowing VSL3 daily I had zero Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria. I began experimenting with other probiotics and various prebiotics and did indeed see very substantial changes in composition of the gut flora as a result, though not in Lactobacilli or Bifidobacteria.

Early this year I decided to stop taking VSL3 since it didn't seem to be influencing my gut microbiota and I was no longer taking antibiotics. With the benefit of hindsight I can say that this was one of two really serious mistakes I made at that time. My condition has been deteriorating and it has taken me months to try to understand what is going on.

Several months ago I did recognise that oxalate accumulation could again be an issue, something I thought I had put behind me. Stopping the VSL3 could have been part of that so I added it back as well as increasing B6 and various other things.

I also decided to do another OAT test to see if there really had been a deterioration in oxalate markers. I have just had the results and yes the markers are pretty terrible.

Of course I can't directly prove that the VSL3 was responsible but stopping it was the only major change that I could identify as likely to be connected to oxalates.

I have recently started taking the Oxalobact though still only in small amounts because I'm a bit sensitive to the FOS in it. However I don't intend to stop the VSL3, even when I build up to a higher dose of Oxalobact. Maybe a long time into the future I'll reconsider.

For now VSL3 seems to be very important for me in keeping oxalates under control.

 

[Violeta]

am confused...Is it recommended to take K2 for oxalate problem even though it causes dumping?

You say: "Our probiotics spewing out Vitamin K2 in our guts speed up the oxalate dumping process." Is this all probiotics? Or which ones?

Maybe our probiotics aren't spewing out Vitamin K2, maybe the VSL#3 is breaking down the calcium oxalate, and K2 is exactly what would stop the discomfort that you are experiencing.

 

[Gondwanaland]

My dr. alerted me that K2 can be converted back to K1 in the gut. Is that so?

 

[Oci]

Many of the things recommended for oxalate problems cause dumping. This is exactly what we are trying to achieve - ie reducing body stores. However if this is too vigorous it can be very unpleasant. Hence the start low and go slow recommendation.

As far as I'm aware only O. formigenes has been shown to directly speed up oxalate dumping (others just haven't been looked at). However several other probiotics (including VSL 3 or Vivomixx) have been tested for oxalate digesting capacity and the assumption is that like O. formigenes, they too have the capacity to stimulate dumping.

I intended to reply to your earlier post about VSL 3 but have been diverted by other things so will do it now. This has strong oxalate digesting capacity and one possible reason you could be having trouble with it is that it is stimulating oxalate dumping. You could try cutting back to maybe 1/4 sachet and building up.

Of course there could be other reasons for the problem. If you happen to be histamine sensitive then the L delbrueckii bulgaricus in it could be a problem as mentioned in your link. But I imagine you already know whether or not you are histamine sensitive.

The E.coli suggestion is just that - someone's theory - it may or may not be relevant. This is linked as I recall to the notion that some people have too many Lactobacilli which crowd out the E.coli, therefore they should not take probiotics containing Lactobacilli and instead try Mutaflor.

Certainly some people do seem to be sensitive to Lactobacilli, maybe D-lactate acidosis is a problem for them, maybe there are other reasons. Unfortunately it is a bit of a trial and error process.

If you think oxalates are a problem for you then VSL 3 could be very important. I have taken it for years and must say it didn't seem to do anything much one way or the other. I continued to take it because I was taking antibiotics for a long time and thought at the very least by flooding the gut with probiotics I would prevent something really nasty from taking up residence. That did indeed seem to be the case.

Towards the end of last year I had a uBiome analysis of the gut microbiota and was very disappointed to see that after years of swallowing VSL3 daily I had zero Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria. I began experimenting with other probiotics and various prebiotics and did indeed see very substantial changes in composition of the gut flora as a result, though not in Lactobacilli or Bifidobacteria.

I also decided to do another OAT test to see if there really had been a deterioration in oxalate markers. I have just had the results and yes the markers are pretty terrible.

Many many thanks, Alicec, for your very detailed response. Most helpful! I am sorry to hear that your condition has deteriorated but hope that getting back on VSL#3 and also taking the Oxalobact will really turn that around again. It is very difficult when we can't really tell what is doing what! I will follow your progress on Oxalobact with much interest.

I can see that I am being far too impatient...wanting to rush into things and feel normal again. My VV and bladder problems disappeared for a few days and I persuaded myself that oxalates were not the problem and that the strong antifungals ie GSE and SF722 had been irritating the system. Now the problems have returned and I am back to believing it is an oxalate problem.During the days my VV/bladder problems were good, I had a lot of brain fog. I cut back on the probiotics and brain fog was pretty good today but other symptoms are back.

I have an OAT test kit here but am waiting for things to "settle" somewhat - if they ever do - and for me to stop changing supplements. I stopped the antifungals a week or so ago except for Berberine which does have some antifungal and antibacterial action. I have taken it for a long time with few interruptions and really don't feel good when I stop it - more brain fog and fatigue. So, maybe I just stay on it and test anyway. Perhaps berberine is responsible for low e coli or NG enterococcus?

Great Plains says:
It is important to note that the body can take weeks to reestablish its metabolic functions after supplementation has been removed or introduced. If the supplements have recently been added or removed, the OAT will give a picture of the metabolism in transition and is difficult to assess from a clinical standpoint. If you determine that you want to cease or add supplementation, two weeks is the recommended period of time to wait before testing.

I will start on 1/4 packet of VSL and see how I do. I may have some histamine problems as I had very itchy eyes and had to take a Claritin for a couple of days around the time I was taking full packets. Or perhaps that was just late August pollens. Who knows!

I bob around from one idea to the next. Today I am considering ordering Mutaflor for my low e coli as it won't be readily available to me after Sept 1. The company here in Canada has been sold. I also found a source for Symbioflor for my NG enterococcus. In searching PR back in 2010 I found that Curry said:
"- Lactic acid bacteria probiotics, which build the protective flora in the gut and heal the leaky gut wall - VSL-3 is the best product.
- Probiotics which don't colonise the gut, but train the defense of the gut - Mutaflor (Escherichia Coli) or Symbioflor (Enterococci).

So if you'd like to train your gut associated immune system, build the gut flora and heal the leaky intestinal wall, take both type, this may help.

And btw, yes it will take ages until the lactic acid bacteria will colonise in your gut. The most cost-saving way is if you cultivate your own probiotics at home."

I am interested in the Ubiome but I am not sure what tests I would most benefit from. Any thoughts on this would be most appreciated. I had 2+ Candida and 4+ enterobacter cloacae (dysbiotic) back in early June. Testing is expensive!

BTW, are you following a low oxalate diet or just avoiding the high oxalate foods as I am?

Many thanks too for the probiotic files!

 

[Asklipia]

@alicec Thank you for bringing up these tables again.
I do not know when these tables were published but since then there must be more information available. Maybe it would be interesting to update them with whatever information we can add. Someone might want to help?

I notice that at least one commercial probiotic is missing from the first list.
In Europe it is called UltraFlora Forte, by Metagenics, in the US UltraFlora IB.
Each capsule contains 60 billion CFUs:
Bifidobacterium lactis Bi-07 30 billion CFUs
Lactobacillus acidophilus NCFM strain 30 billion CFUs

I have been taking 15 mg MK4 for some time now and have thought about increasing, but there always seemed to be something more pressing to try. I'll push it up to the top of the list.

I think I would be careful there. I am all for MK4 but if we are taking probiotics eventually we won't need so much supplementation. I noticed when I was on 45 mg of MK4 per day, it fixed a lot of issues but obviously there were parts of the body where the MK4 did not seem to go so easily. Because it is a fat-soluble vitamin, it could build up in the body and you could one day be faced with massive oxalate dumping all of a sudden. Not good if you are already not feeling good. On that point I have more observations to make about the geography of oxalate dumping, for another time.

Maybe our probiotics aren't spewing out Vitamin K2, maybe the VSL#3 is breaking down the calcium oxalate, and K2 is exactly what would stop the discomfort that you are experiencing.

I think that the probiotics are spewing out K2 because they give me the same signs that taking K2 supplements did : smooth teeth, very soft skin. I think maybe K2 will create the discomfort of oxalate dumping AND will eventually end the problem when there are no more oxalates to dump. To reduce the pain we need to degrade these oxalates which have been freed, and this is not done by K2 as far as I know. Which is why the ideal probiotic contains both K2 producing bacteria AND oxalate degrading bacteria. Which is why studies have been inconsistent when the trials did not include K2 producing bacteria.
In the same line of thought, even if the subjects take their two-pronged bacterial mix, what about their diet? Stuffing themselves with anti-K fake folates can surely neutralize the K2 part, and they would be left with the effect of the oxalate-digesting bacteria, pretty much useless if they have no circulating K2 to induce oxalate dumping.

Lots of good wishes!
Beware of FFP
Asklipia

 

[Asklipia]

I just realized that the massive dump I had during the hot weather period, when drinking A LOT of water might be due to the fact that I took my water the way the Roman soldiers used to (and gave some to Christ on the cross as a compassionate gesture) : that is, with a dash of vinegar. Apple cider vinegar in my case, instead of wine vinegar in theirs. And sometime with acid white wine instead of vinegar on the rocks. I think per day I must have consumed a small 10 cc glass of vinegar.

Obviously this is an old way of trying to reduce kidney stones!
The good news is, I never suffered from kidney stones, even though they might be present, and my kidney-lamb brains-heart eating habits, as well as the heavy doses of MK4 and the K2 producing bacteria I gobble up every day must have prevented their appearance.
Nevertheless there are oxalates lying around in other places and that may have been one of the causes for the dumping!

Which brings me back to hypotheses about "unbreakable oxalate crystals" being easier to break than thought previously. And of pH role in this.

The mind boggles! Sorry!

 

[Asklipia]

Good news! More OXALOBACT on its way! In case the first batch was lost.

 

[Oci]

I received an email from Ubiome.

Today only, a 5-site microbiome testing kit is $89 instead of the usual $399.

Use discount code 5FOR1PARTY when you checkout at ubiome.com (by midnight).

I haven't ordered a test yet but maybe will today! How valuable do you think the Ubiome tests are? Especially for one (me) without a background in "stuff"?

 

[Oci]

Many of the things recommended for oxalate problems cause dumping. This is exactly what we are trying to achieve - ie reducing body stores. However if this is too vigorous it can be very unpleasant. Hence the start low and go slow recommendation.

BUT...why are we storing oxalates? Is everyone? Why is one person an endogenous producer and another not?
I wonder if any OAT tests from Great Plains come back without an oxalate load?

 

[Violeta]

Oh, it's from a play!

Truly it's the medicine that is making you sick! I realize that's not the literal translation, but is that what it means?

 

[Asklipia]

Truly it's the medicine that is making you sick! I realize that's not the literal translation, but is that what it means?

No. Nice try though.
I deleted it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I can see that I am being far too impatient...wanting to rush into things and feel normal again. My VV and bladder problems disappeared for a few days and I persuaded myself that oxalates were not the problem and that the strong antifungals ie GSE and SF722 had been irritating the system. Now the problems have returned and I am back to believing it is an oxalate problem.During the days my VV/bladder problems were good, I had a lot of brain fog. I cut back on the probiotics and brain fog was pretty good today but other symptoms are back.

I know exactly how you feel. I am even back to eating nuts, seeds and chocolate daily
Yesterday and today I took Maca, despite having a slight worsening in my ankle joints this morning. And about 2 hours after my Maca today I felt discomfort at the right ureter
I don't always take the oxalate degrading probx because the Lactate-free probx help me sleep better, so I alternate them.

BUT...why are we storing oxalates? Is everyone? Why is one person an endogenous producer and another not?

why are we storing oxalates? Is everyone? Why is one person an endogenous producer and another not? indeed
I think there is a fungal connection.