Carnivore Diet for ME?

[Rufous McKinney]

When I was vegan I ate huge meals to fill me up

I did a trendy 1910 diet for about five years when I was college age: a really strict vegan thing/ Ehret's Mucuousless ....goodbye lovely avocado. I was the sickest as a young person when I as on this vegan diet. I went off when I was stuck at a camp, and the vegetarians were offered: iceberg lettuce and velveta cheese sandwiches. that was it.

So bodies vary greatly in food tolerances. Announcement

 

[outdamnspot]

Can anyone explain exactly what 'rendered fat' is? I've noticed, for example, that if I consume the liquid fat that pools inside the skillet, it will provoke a strong allergy-like reaction, and so I tend to avoid it. I was told that fat is 'rendered'. However, lately I've found that even if I just consume fatty ground beef (with the liquid fat drained away), it can sometimes trigger gut inflammation the next day. So is the fat that cooks inside the beef 'rendered' too?

I'm wondering if my issue is just too much animal fat itself, which I've read can be inflammatory, or if it's the rendering. Someone on reddit has the same problem (though he doesn't have CFS) and deals with it by cooking very lean meat and then eating raw grass-fed trimmings. I'm considering trying that, though wondering what an affordable lean meat might be.

 

[Lolo]

@ outdamnspot,IMO it's hard to know whats doing what. At the moment I don't know if I feel crappier from something I ate or I have done too much.

I don't know what country you are in but kangaroo mince is very lean, it's cheap here in Oz.

I have read that it's best to slowly increase the amount of fat. I haven't been able to do this successfully yet. I also haven't been able to source very fatty meat which it seems is what is required and that's not expensive. It's all lean around here. I need a steady supply of fat. I am buying some lamb breast as recommended by Richard this week and I have asked for lamb fat trimmings so hopefully I get enough fat that way. When I have tried increasing my fat before I have ended up with diarrhea, but maybe it was because I increased too quickly. Don't know.

Yes rendering is animal fat cooked down to a liquid. Maybe the problem is histamines.https://zerocarbzen.com/histamines/

 

[outdamnspot]

@Richard7 or @Lolo going to buy some short ribs today, since someone who has problems with ground beef/rendered fat said they cook the meat and eat the fat raw to get around it ... so at least it will give me an idea if I'm intolerant to animal fat itself, or the cooking/rendered. Before I spend the money though, is it safe to consume the fat raw (GI issues/potential diarrhea aside)? It's from an organic butchers and the meat is grass fed.

 

[Lolo]

I can't see why not outdamnspot. Some people do carnivore raw successfully. For me it would be something I would need to get my head around first though.

 

[Hope4]

...
Things to consider:

• ...
• Not trying to start a battle here: but being vegan got me to the severe side of this illness. That was 3 years ago, when I develop fructose malapsorption and developed (or increased) my SIBO to levels I became homebound. Since then I recovered a looooooot in this last 3 years, but some how, a week from now I start having a small relapse, I think it's not getting worse now though....

Hi, Folk. I, too, think that my decades as a vegetarian damaged me a great deal. And I now think that underlying the desire to be a vegetarian was an inability to handle amines.

I was on a ketogenic level of low carb diet, quite strictly for ten years. It helped a lot, but the last two or three years of that level, I started getting symptoms I am trying to sort out. I decided to limit protein, and am now on a low-food-chemical elimination diet.

One of the things I discovered while on the very low carb diet, was that under 25 grams of carbs per day, I'd be alright the first day, but after that, it seemed as though my body was having difficulty doing something. I experimented many times in those ten years, trying to eat ultra low carb, but, I just do not do well at all at less than25g/CHO/d.

I have wondered if perhaps some people are just not good at gluconeogenesis.

In case the following info might help someone, a couple of references:

Dr. Blake Donaldson, addresses this somewhat in his book, Strong Medicine. Some of his patients just did not fare well and meat and water, and they needed vegetables. Here is a link to Dr. Donaldson's book in three different online versions.

Dr. Wolfgang Lutz, early on, found that some of his patients did quite poorly on ultra low carb, and others did well. His recommendation was to start at ca. 90g/CHO/d and work down slowly. Barry Groves put Dr. Lutz's early recommendations at his site, Second Opinions.

 

[Hope4]

Can anyone explain exactly what 'rendered fat' is? I've noticed, for example, that if I consume the liquid fat that pools inside the skillet, it will provoke a strong allergy-like reaction, and so I tend to avoid it. I was told that fat is 'rendered'. However, lately I've found that even if I just consume fatty ground beef (with the liquid fat drained away), it can sometimes trigger gut inflammation the next day. So is the fat that cooks inside the beef 'rendered' too?

I'm wondering if my issue is just too much animal fat itself, which I've read can be inflammatory, or if it's the rendering. Someone on reddit has the same problem (though he doesn't have CFS) and deals with it by cooking very lean meat and then eating raw grass-fed trimmings. I'm considering trying that, though wondering what an affordable lean meat might be.

Hi, ODT. Rendering fat means to cook it at a low temperature until the fat is almost completely out of the membranes. The liquid fat is strained. One can cook the cracklings that have been strained out. There are recipes for cooking with cracklings on the web. Especially in the American South cuisine.

I use a stainless strainer to strain the cooked fat. Using cheesecloth can get bits of cheesecloth in the liquid fat. Beef kidney fat is called suet. When it is rendered, it is called tallow. Some people use those terms for other things. But traditional use of the words is what I have just typed. There is good 100% grass-fed bison and lamb suet and tallow these days, too.

There are many methods of rendering fat: gas or electric. Crockpot, stove top, oven, double boiler, and also putting water in with the suet, which then evaporates.

The basics of rendering are not difficult.

For example, many keep a crock of bacon fat, adding to that each time they fry a skillet full of bacon. To render the bacon drippings, one simply heats the bacon fat, on low heat, until all is melted, and then strains it. Some strain it several times. To remove some or much of the bacon smell and taste from the fat, some raw potato chunks can be put into the fat. The potato soaks up the bacon smell and taste. Not all of it, but much of it.

I have made soap from rendered bacon fat. It makes nice soap.

 

[BeADocToGoTo1]

An interesting article on ketogenic diet from today:

https://chriskresser.com/a-complete-guide-to-the-keto-diet/

 

[outdamnspot]

A question: in an effort to test whether rendered fat was causing me issues, I've switched from ground beef to eating fatty ribs and steaks cooked 'bleu'; I also trim the white fat off and consume it raw, since I've read pathogens are far more likely to lurk in muscle meat. To ensure I get enough carbs for energy, I've also been eating liver the past 3 days (as opposed to once a week).

Today, after 3 days of eating this way, I woke up feeling very odd/hungover .. extremely foggy, lethargic etc. These are symptoms I can get from histamine release, which consuming liver triggers, but I also noticed a 'clearing of house' (to put it politely) in the bathroom: my stools looked very strange (mucus, air bubbles etc.), and similar to when I was taking things like antibiotic herbs.

My guess is that eating the liver is activating my immune system and maybe helping to clear some pathogens, but I just wanted to check to be safe and ensure it's not related to the raw meat in the seared steaks. If it was some kind of food poisoning, what would the symptoms look like? More akin to diarrhea, fever, cramping etc.?

 

[Lolo]

I have no idea. But I bet you are confused about what to do next.

I haven't had full on food poisoning but have had a stomach bug or something, just a bit of cramping then diarrhea for maybe an hour. No mucus or air bubbles.

 

[outdamnspot]

I have no idea. But I bet you are confused about what to do next.

I haven't had full on food poisoning but have had a stomach bug or something, just a bit of cramping then diarrhea for maybe an hour. No mucus or air bubbles.

Well I can cut out the liver and just stick to the steaks for a day or two but no carbs means no energy. I highly doubt it is food poisoning, though. I do really wish there was a way I could include carbs in my diet regularly or that there were other meat sources besides liver.

 

[Hope4]

A question: in an effort to test whether rendered fat was causing me issues, I've switched from ground beef to eating fatty ribs and steaks cooked 'bleu'; I also trim the white fat off and consume it raw,... related to the raw meat...

Hi, @outdamnspot I know someone who eats raw beef and raw suet, and does very well with it. Amines increase when meat is cooked. I like raw kidney fat. It spreads nicely like an after dinner cheese, or a kind of grainy butter. The meat and kidney fat (suet) come from a rancher. The pastures are not sprayed, and the cows are 100% grass-fed.

I am active on a low carb forum which has had a couple of dozen people posting there for more than ten years, who eat all-meat diets, and a few of them eat only raw meat and raw fat. I tried raw ground meat and raw egg yolks for several weeks. I did really well on that. I felt more clear-headed and stronger than on any other fare. The "squeamish" factor is a bit high for me. Raw egg yolks are easy, and raw ground meat once in a while is nice. (Steak tartare in cookbooks.)

Source of food and good sanitation/refrigeration are the only things that come to mind, at the moment.

I have an idea that those of us who have low energy, are perhaps genetically deficient in the ability to turn protein into glucose (and deficient in the ability to get FFAs out of storage, related to pyruvate). If the capability for gluconeogenesis is not there, I do not see how a so-called "zero" carb diet would help someone. I do not do well at all if the carbs are too low. I can go one day at under 20 grams, but two days under 20, and I feel like hell. I have tried that several times over the years. I do well at 25-35 grams, and can push it to 50g/d, if I stay away from foods that cause me troubles (salicylates, glutamates, oxalates, gallates/phenols, amines, nightshades, casein....)

Cooking method is crucial for some people. Some can't have food cooked on gas. Some can't have food cooked directly on an electric burner.

I switched to drinking distilled water, for example, recently, and feel much better.

 

[Lolo]

I have been wondering what carb level people are doing. I was trying to do around 20 g and at the same time reducing the amount of meat I was eating from carnivore, but didn't feel very good so I have upped the carb a bit. I didn't do well when I increased fat. So maybe I will go back to Paleo. I hate tracking macros, feels a bit obsessive to me.

I got some lamb breasts today and solar cooked one and had it for dinner with no veg simply b/c I couldn't be bothered cooking any and feel ok from that.

I just wish there was an easy way to work these things out.

 

[BeADocToGoTo1]

I switched to drinking distilled water, for example, recently, and feel much better.

Please be careful drinking that as it will mess with your electrolytes balance to name just one issue.

If you need more info:

World Health Organization study on demineralized water impact on the body:

https://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap12.pdf

 

[Hope4]

Please be careful drinking that....demineralized water impact on the body:
https://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap12.pdf

BeADoc....,

Thanks very much for that link. I do take minerals, but I've been wondering if I ought to take more or different minerals. I may test the spring water again soon, and see how I fare on it.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Lieselotte]

I tried the carnivore diet for a week. Why only a week?

Well I had a day toward the end of the week where I had lower energy (than my usual low energy) and I think all the meat was just too hard to digest/energy consuming to digest. I ended up throwing up all the meat in the middle of the night. It wasn't food poisoning, but I think rather that the meat was just sitting around in my stomach not going anywhere and my body said "Let's get rid of this!"
I was so sick for a whole day.

So I limit large amounts of meat to "better" days and also am stricter than before with my digestive enzymes.

 

[outdamnspot]

Hi, @outdamnspot I know someone who eats raw beef and raw suet, and does very well with it. Amines increase when meat is cooked. I like raw kidney fat. It spreads nicely like an after dinner cheese, or a kind of grainy butter. The meat and kidney fat (suet) come from a rancher. The pastures are not sprayed, and the cows are 100% grass-fed.

I am active on a low carb forum which has had a couple of dozen people posting there for more than ten years, who eat all-meat diets, and a few of them eat only raw meat and raw fat. I tried raw ground meat and raw egg yolks for several weeks. I did really well on that. I felt more clear-headed and stronger than on any other fare. The "squeamish" factor is a bit high for me. Raw egg yolks are easy, and raw ground meat once in a while is nice. (Steak tartare in cookbooks.)

Source of food and good sanitation/refrigeration are the only things that come to mind, at the moment.

I have an idea that those of us who have low energy, are perhaps genetically deficient in the ability to turn protein into glucose (and deficient in the ability to get FFAs out of storage, related to pyruvate). If the capability for gluconeogenesis is not there, I do not see how a so-called "zero" carb diet would help someone. I do not do well at all if the carbs are too low. I can go one day at under 20 grams, but two days under 20, and I feel like hell. I have tried that several times over the years. I do well at 25-35 grams, and can push it to 50g/d, if I stay away from foods that cause me troubles (salicylates, glutamates, oxalates, gallates/phenols, amines, nightshades, casein....)

Cooking method is crucial for some people. Some can't have food cooked on gas. Some can't have food cooked directly on an electric burner.

I switched to drinking distilled water, for example, recently, and feel much better.

Thanks for the reply. When you were eating ground beef raw, where were you sourcing it? I have 1kg of ground beef from a premium butcher that I'd rather not go to waste and was considering eating raw; if I could eat it raw all the time, it would make life easier because ground beef is still the most cost effective option .. though I generally buy it for a lot less at a regular butcher, and my supermarket has a grass-fed option, but I wasn't sure if either of those would be safe to consume raw.

Also what carbs do you eat if you're avoiding histamines and salicylates and amines etc.? I can't see what that really leaves left.

 

[Hope4]

Hi, @outdamnspot North Star Bison is our first choice for beef or bison. I also like Adams Natural Meats. I think it's good to pay for extra dry ice. USWellness Meats is good, too. I also buy some locally at farmer's markets. I use EatWild and LocalHarvest to find ranchers. If that doesn't give you what you are looking for, you could ask the local representative from the Weston A. Price Foundation for local ranchers' names.

From good ranchers, I feel quite alright about eating raw beef or bison, both muscle meat and fat.

I like raw ground meat with a raw egg yolk or two, with some kind of nice fat or oil, and salt and pepper. White pepper is especially nice with that. Some add raw onions or whatever condiments they like. A bite dipped in melted butter is nice, too.

I make sure the eggs are organic, and try to get soy-free.

Carbs are somewhat of a puzzle these days, as I am trying to avoid hives flare-ups. The FailSafe Diet is the reference I am using. My plant matter these days is limited. All organic. Low carb vegs: Iceberg lettuce. Green beans. Sometimes white cabbage, or okra. A few chives.
High carb, once in a while: rice crackers, white potato (peeled), peeled pears. Tapioca is allowed, but I find it triggers a false appetite.

Not a lot of variety just now, but it's better than having hives.

I get some carbs from light cream, yoghurt, and egg yolks. The light cream I use is .8g/CHO/oz. The yoghurt is 12g/CHO/8oz. Egg yolks, I use .5g/CHO/yolk.

6 oz. light cream = 5g/CHO
6 oz. yoghurt = 6g/CHO
6 oz. green veg. = 6g/CHO (I use 1g/CHO per cooked oz. of green veg. It doesn't matter to me if it isn't exact, at 6 oz. of vegs.)
Supplements are ca. 10g/CHO
I'll usually add something else at ca. 5 - 8g/CHO. (Some lettuce, with a small glass of diluted light cream.)
At ca. 35 - 40g/CHO/d that gives me enough glucose so that I don't feel taxed.

 

[Richard7]

@Lolo the only carbs I am getting from food come from liver, so I get a little once or twice a week.

But I also have about a 5g a day of ribose.

Perhaps it is relevant that I am also taking a lot of inositol. Acc Wikipedia inositol is used for a lot of things including fat metabolism. It is also something that healthy people make from one of the intermediates in glycolysis.

I suppose that healthy people can go PKD or carnivore and trust that they will use available glucose to make inositol (and glycine and nucleic acids etc etc) and will convert glycerol or amino acids to make the necessary glucose if it is lacking.

If pwme/cfs have issues with glycolysis (as suggested by the metabolomic research of Chris Armstrong and others) and inositol is essential to fat metabolism maybe this could be a hurdle for pwme/cfs trying these diets. I use vast amounts of the stuff.

I also take ALCAR which is also meant to help with fat metabolism https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099008/

Anyway I seem to be much better, my digestion is still a bit of an issue with diarrhoea some days. But I am now producing my own bile so have stopped supplementing it. And I just trust that it will sort itself out. By which I do not mean that I think I have the knowledge to be able to say that that is so, but that I have elected not to worry about it. In six months time I may decide I have been reckless.

But I have much more energy, I am alert much of the day. I am able to get bored. On the weekend I opened an old yoga book and started doing the simplest exercises - the ones where you just sit and move your head, or feet or hands through their range of movement.

I attempted the easier parts of this series https://archive.org/details/SATYANANDASwamiAsanaPranayamaMudraBandha/page/n35

And of course I was lousy, really lousy, I cannot move my hand in a continuous circle, it jerks all over the place. But now on my good days I feel like my body is waking up and I feel the need to do something.

I have also being doing some very gentle remedial exercises set by my physio whenever I am able, which turns out to be two or three times a week, and I now have some sore muscles most days but am quite happy with that as it seems to be like normal healthy muscle pain, not the usual seemingly random and pointless ME/CFS pain. I am of course being gentle and doing my best to not push myself into PEM.

 

[Lolo]

I have an idea that those of us who have low energy, are perhaps genetically deficient in the ability to turn protein into glucose

I don't know about the science of any of this but when I was vegan and someone suggested I increase my protein with pea protein I felt an improvement. And then when three others (health professionals/therapists) had suggested I needed to eat meat to get better and I did I felt better again. (two of these people were ex vegetarians)

@Lieselotte Another option to try would be to blend the meat into a soup. Personally I don't think I could do that for very long. Yes the digestive enzymes would be a good idea. I felt very good when I started carnivore, not more energy, just stronger (I developed more muscle) and emotionally felt better. After around 8 mths I just couldn't stand it anymore.

I don't think I could do raw meat because it would be cold, cold is not good for this body. The thing with cold food is that it takes energy for the body to warm it up.

It seems Americans don't eat much lamb. It is my preferred meat and the good thing is it's all grass fed. I only eat grass fed beef and of course kangaroo is grass fed as it's wild but it's low fat unfortunately.

I use a reverse osmosis filter that has a remineralising and alkalinising attachment.