Carnivore Diet for ME?

[Lolo]

@ Richard7 I do those sorts of exercises while sitting on the computer waiting for pages to load. Turn head to right, to left etc. I didn't notice anything when taking d- Ribose but maybe I didn't take enough.

Interesting about the inositol because one of the original reasons I went vegan was because I thought I couldn't digest fat very well. This was 30 years ago so there wasn't much info around at the time no internet. I'll look further into it. My B vitamins and minerals both have 100 mg. Not that I take supps regularly as I haven't experienced any benefit.

 

[Hope4]

@Lolo I think you might be right about Americans not liking lamb. I don't care for it.

I also wonder if some of us don't make ATP very well.

 

[Richard7]

@Hope4 thanks for the links.

I recently heard about the Donaldson book on a podcast and have been listening to it (I use text to speech software to read).

I think there is an error in the info on the diet for MS page. In a podcast (biohakers lab) I heard a British guy who had used keto to deal with brain cancer interviewed and he was eating lambs brains. Which are also available in Australia. I think it is only beef brains that have been banned.

 

[Hope4]

@Richard7 The Lutz diet for MS was early on his career. As some did not fare well at such a low level of carbs, he recommended higher levels after that early trial period.

I have found that whenever I have access to good veal brains, I always feel better. When I can't eat them for awhile, I feel worse.

Dr. Jan Kwasniewski talks about eating various kinds of offal for specific ailments. Peter Dobromylskyj's blog, Hyperlipid, talks about Dr. Kwasniewski's diet, as well as some other wondrous things. Hyperlipid is my favorite nutrition-science blog.

Hopeful Geranium is also excellent. Odd name, but interesting comments on the science of nutrition. The man is working on solving the challenge of having Hepatitis C.

 

[Lieselotte]

@Lolo Blended meat...yum. lol
I'll need to try the carnivore diet again. Maybe I can do it on 'good' days and see what change that makes.

 

[Richard7]

@Lolo

I am uncertain about the ribose, but I find that I got it when I read about it on myhill's site, and I find that I desire it most days. I understand what it is meant to do, but cannot point to any obvious change in symptoms. I just know that I desire a small amount most days and therefore take it - oh an that it is a carb and now the major source of carbs in my diet.

When I said I had a lot of inositol I mean a lot. I don't weigh it or measure it but a little more than a pound a month. This puts me in the dose range for using it to treat anxiety - which is also relevant.

But according to wikipedia - not the best source I know - endogenous production is in the order of a few grams per day. So I assume that a dose of something like 100g/ month would be needed to make up for the lack of endogenous production for someone of a normal size. So maybe I need 150g or so given my size to make up for endogenous production.

But I find I need about three times that much and suspect that may just because it is not all absorbed and I just need to take 3g of exogenous inositol to make up for 1g endogenous. (Though it could for all I know be because I have a long standing deficit in the many things it is turned into.)

 

[outdamnspot]

Hi, @outdamnspot North Star Bison is our first choice for beef or bison. I also like Adams Natural Meats. I think it's good to pay for extra dry ice. USWellness Meats is good, too. I also buy some locally at farmer's markets. I use EatWild and LocalHarvest to find ranchers. If that doesn't give you what you are looking for, you could ask the local representative from the Weston A. Price Foundation for local ranchers' names.

From good ranchers, I feel quite alright about eating raw beef or bison, both muscle meat and fat.

I like raw ground meat with a raw egg yolk or two, with some kind of nice fat or oil, and salt and pepper. White pepper is especially nice with that. Some add raw onions or whatever condiments they like. A bite dipped in melted butter is nice, too.

I make sure the eggs are organic, and try to get soy-free.

Carbs are somewhat of a puzzle these days, as I am trying to avoid hives flare-ups. The FailSafe Diet is the reference I am using. My plant matter these days is limited. All organic. Low carb vegs: Iceberg lettuce. Green beans. Sometimes white cabbage, or okra. A few chives.
High carb, once in a while: rice crackers, white potato (peeled), peeled pears. Tapioca is allowed, but I find it triggers a false appetite.

Not a lot of variety just now, but it's better than having hives.

I get some carbs from light cream, yoghurt, and egg yolks. The light cream I use is .8g/CHO/oz. The yoghurt is 12g/CHO/8oz. Egg yolks, I use .5g/CHO/yolk.

6 oz. light cream = 5g/CHO
6 oz. yoghurt = 6g/CHO
6 oz. green veg. = 6g/CHO (I use 1g/CHO per cooked oz. of green veg. It doesn't matter to me if it isn't exact, at 6 oz. of vegs.)
Supplements are ca. 10g/CHO
I'll usually add something else at ca. 5 - 8g/CHO. (Some lettuce, with a small glass of diluted light cream.)
At ca. 35 - 40g/CHO/d that gives me enough glucose so that I don't feel taxed.

I'm based in Australia but my food budget is tiny; I'd love to eat grass-fed or organic or buy all my meat from a butcher if it was feasible, but it really isn't. The last time I tried iceberg lettuce, it was terrible but I may also have been reacting to rendered fat, since I wasn't really cognizant of it being an issue at that point, so maybe I will try get some from an organic store and try again.

 

[Lolo]

Just checking out Kwasniewski . https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/03/kwasniewski-praise-lard.html

" Vinka Peschak starts each day by knocking back a full cup of heavy whipping cream. ...In the middle of the day she might have a cup of coffee, "but only with a lot of heavy whipping cream in it." Feel nauseous just reading that.

" Dr. Jan Kwasniewski, who started developing it while working as a dietitian for a military sanitarium in Ciechocinek, Poland. ... After experimenting on his family and himself, Kwasniewski concluded that the ideal nutritional combo came from eating three grams of fat for every one gram of protein and half a gram of carbohydrates. " If anyone is interested to know.

"On average, the diet recommends a whopping 250 grams of fat per day, about four times what the FDA recommended for the average person to maintain his/her weight and about 10 times the amount of saturated fat allowed. "

Don't think I could do this. And always at the back of my head is the story of Terry Wahl who got better with lots of veggies.

 

[skwag]

Anecdotal Improvement in EDS Symptoms from Carnivore Diet

 

[Richard7]

Thanks for the link @skwag it is an interesting podcast.

 

[nyanko_the_sane]

I have certainly heard of people with chronic IBS healing themselves with a histamine free all meat diet. But where are you going to get meat that is guaranteed to be histamine free, other than directly from the farm and flash frozen? This is not an inexpensive diet to follow.

Some facts about histamine in foods:
https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/histamine-intolerance/
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322543.php

 

[ebethc]

I use a reverse osmosis filter that has a remineralising and alkalinising attachment.

do you use a portable reverse osmosis unit? what brand/model is it? I need something that I don't have to install (counter top, for example).

 

[Lolo]

Yes mine is counter top. I’m in Australia so brand name won’t mean anything. But that doesn’t matter because it’s just a casing to hold the different filters. I bought mine from a water filter shop and disconnect it from the tap and take it to this guy who changes the filters over.

 

[Henrik]

I've been doing Carnivore for close to four months and for the first time in the last eight years I'm in almost complete remission. Zero bloating, no fatigue and no PEM. I'm doing beef, bone broth, oysters and salt so towards the minimalistic side. After seeing 23 different doctors and trying pretty much every treatment mentioned on PR that I could afford I had almost given up hope. I've been hesitant to post since I never made an improvement that lasted more than a couple of weeks before, but it seems there is something to it after all. I'm excited to say the least.

I should mention that I always had tons of gut issues (SIBO, IBS, poor motility), but fewer neurological problems so perhaps I'm in the minority that responds better to Carnivore. Also, I tried keto for a few months as well as Paleo AIP + no FODMAPs before and it wasnt until I went full carnivore that I saw results which I thought was interesting.

 

[Learner1]

Thanks for sharing! What is it you actually eat on a daily basis? How do you gst folate and antioxidants?

 

[gregh286]

I've been doing Carnivore for close to four months and for the first time in the last eight years I'm in almost complete remission. Zero bloating, no fatigue and no PEM. I'm doing beef, bone broth, oysters and salt so towards the minimalistic side. After seeing 23 different doctors and trying pretty much every treatment mentioned on PR that I could afford I had almost given up hope. I've been hesitant to post since I never made an improvement that lasted more than a couple of weeks before, but it seems there is something to it after all. I'm excited to say the least.

I should mention that I always had tons of gut issues (SIBO, IBS, poor motility), but fewer neurological problems so perhaps I'm in the minority that responds better to Carnivore. Also, I tried keto for a few months as well as Paleo AIP + no FODMAPs before and it wasnt until I went full carnivore that I saw results which I thought was interesting.

Great work.
Do you measure your urine ketones?

 

[Richard7]

Great to hear @Henrik

I have had improvement - from being mostly in bed to being mostly in a chair (in good weeks a normal chair, in normal weeks a reclining one)- but not remission. I have also of course been ill for a long time and have lost something like 14kgs lean mass so getting back to something like normal or even functional will probably take more work than it would for many.

I think my recovery is also complicated by oxalate issues after eating vast amounts of greens for several years and having steatorrhea for many more.

I guess I should post an update. I have dropped all supplements save some potassium chloride and magnesium sulphate and very occasionally a bit of vit c. And salt if that is considered a supplement. I also find that I cannot quite do without coffee but have massively reduced my dose.

Foodwise I am pretty much still trying to follow PKD as I understand it with 2:1 fat to protein beef and lamb, plenty of organ meats and of late of oysters and mackerel canned in water. I listened to some more podcasts and heard that paleomedicina would recommend something like 500g liver 250g marrow and 250g brains per week to a sick 60-70kg middle aged person. Which motivated to do the same - well I eat more brains and marrow - and I had further improvements.

I started eating oysters because I found that I would get better when I got deeper into ketosis and then become extra hungry eat more meat and knock myself out of ketosis. At the time I kept thinking that what I needed was stronger meat, and thought it might be related to Chris Armstrong's idea that people coming out of ME/CFS would have sudden demands for micronutrients like a person with refeeding syndrome. It felt like I was getting into the right state to do repairs and then taking in the feedstock needed to make the repairs was knocking me out of that chemical state (ketosis).

Anyway, looking at micronutrients I noticed that oysters seemed to balance out a lot of the beef and lamb organ meets and found that I soon came to like them. I cannot really explain the mackerel, but I noticed that subjectively sardines seemed to be a "weak" meat and mackerel and herring seemed "strong". Looking at micronutrient tables the only thing that stood out to me was that on nutritiondata.self.com subjectively "weak" sardines had a protein quality score of 107 and brisket of 94, while subjectively strong mackerel and herring where both scored 148.

Switching some seafood in and some muscle meat out meant I was able to reduce my protein a bit without getting hungry and sit comfortably somewhere between 4 and 8mMol as measured with urine strips.

 

[Henrik]

Thanks for sharing! What is it you actually eat on a daily basis? How do you gst folate and antioxidants?

A typical day would be:

Breakfast: Patties made of minced meat and beef liver
Lunch: Oysters and steak
Dinner: Bone broth and lamb

I won't deny it's repetitive, but it has been easier than I thought. I have to say being sick for a long time makes you very motivated. I think a lot of people can identify with this, but for me I'm willing to eat pretty much anything if it will make the fatigue go away so I can have a life again.

Folate: Liver is very high in folate.

Antioxidants: My take is something like what Georgia Ede says https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/diagnosis-diet/201712/the-antioxidant-myth

However, I'm open to the idea that Carnivore diet is not ideal for most people. I got eosinophilic esophagitis as well as a couple of other auto immune issues so for me it makes sense, but I'm definitively not saying it's for everyone.

 

[Henrik]

Great work.
Do you measure your urine ketones?

I don't right now. I have measured ketones before when I was doing keto and I was trying to hit a certain range. I know keto works wonders for some people, but I found for me personally it's less important with keto and more important to not eat anything that can trigger my IBS, SIBO or cause any form of bloating.

 

[ebethc]

I've been doing Carnivore for close to four months and for the first time in the last eight years I'm in almost complete remission. Zero bloating, no fatigue and no PEM. I'm doing beef, bone broth, oysters and salt so towards the minimalistic side. ...

.....Also, I tried keto for a few months as well as Paleo AIP + no FODMAPs before and it wasnt until I went full carnivore that I saw results which I thought was interesting.

what exactly do you eat? meat only? do you take any supplements to help w digestion (ie betaine HCL)? that's hard to digest w a dysfunctional gut

congrats on your success! it's good to hear...