Carnivore Diet for ME?

[Lolo]

@Richard7 Maybe your body has enough Vit A from the liver and doesn't want anymore. Good to hear that the yakult is helping. I haven't heard that probiotics helps with anxiety or POTS before.

 

[Richard7]

possibly @Lolo, a liver is a lot more than vitamin A and I really do not know what is going on.

Re probiotics

The idea came from this study https://gutpathogens.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1757-4749-1-6 which used the beck anxiety inventory to measure anxiety in a placebo controlled probiotic trial. They found an improvement. I do not know what the effect size was.

But the Beck Anxiety Inventory includes many symptoms that could be from PoTS https://www.formsbank.com/template/105250/beck-anxiety-inventory.html So I gave it a try.

And though yakult worked I am not using yakult, it comes with a lot of glucose which would be incompatible with a ketogenic diet. I tried A variety of strains and found that lactobacillus paracase LP 33 which I got from both from Blackmores and Ethical Nutrients worked, but was rather expensive.

So I tried some others and found a bulk seller on ebay who sold me a l. rhamnosus that was afordable and worked (and a l.casei and a l. paracasei that did not).

 

[outdamnspot]

@Richard7 I realized my liver experiment was confounded slightly because I was cooking it in the rendered fat left over from the mince meat. I seem to be sensitive to rendered fat and when I tried pouring it over the mince itself to eat, I suddenly became sick. So I will need to try frying the liver on its own, if possible (since I can't tolerate any cooking oils).

I'm going to pick up some fresh ground beef from the butcher today to try instead of the supermarket stuff, based on someone' suggestion, since I seem to be suffering from histamine reactions now that I'm consuming it exclusively. After that, I give up on this diet.

 

[Richard7]

@Lolo @outdamnspot @ChrisD and anyone else who is interested.

I got some pathology done a couple of weeks ago and just saw the specialist who was happy. His summary was that my immune system has vastly improved with only one measurement - cd4/cd8 ratio - being out.

He was interested to know what I was doing differently and said I should continue with it.

I cannot really say "so paleomedicina is right and the PKD has reduced gut permeability, and therefore immune activation and inflammation" but I can say that my doctor's interpretation of this pathology is consistent with paleomedicina being right.

 

[Richard7]

@outdamnspot

A lot of people seem to report problems with rendered fat (it was an issue for me but no longer seems to be one.)

One idea might be to try meat with plenty of adipose tissue that you can eat. I found that buying lamb breast (aka rib) or brisket on the bone and roasting it seemed to work well. At my butcher the brisket on the bone is a special order but is also really cheap @ about $7 per kilo.

The lamb cooks really quickly, about 45 minutes at 180C. I cook a 2kg piece of the brisket at 150C in a romertopf for about 2.5-3hrs. I am probably overcooking the brisket but the recipes that I read all emphasised long and slow.

 

[Lolo]

@Richard7
I mentioned the Vit A because that is the one I remembered off the top of my head as being very high in Liver.

Yes I had heard about Yukult being high in glucose. I find that strange because I have heard that yoghurt with sugar is to be avoided as far as probiotics go.

I checked out the anxiety inventory. I have some of those symptoms but never related them to anxiety. I haven't been tested for POTS (Doctor has never heard of it) but am guessing I have it but probably only mildly or I have learnt to sit as much as possible with feet up.

I am on day 2 of my bone broth fast and I am surprised that I am not starving. I'll have to finish it tomorrow as I won't have any bone broth left. I am going to try to introduce foods slowly and see what happens.

You certainly have been doing your research. I have mostly given up - just a waste of energy.

 

[Lolo]

Yep, brisket is best long and slow. I do lamb roasts for that length of time and it is still quite pink inside.
That is very cheap the brisket on the bone. The cheapest meat I buy is kangaroo mince $10.00 kilo but it's very lean so I add lamb fat to it. Sometimes I can buy lamb bones from Woolies for $6.50 kilo. which have a good amount of fat and meat on them. I think they are just off cuts. And then I cook the bones with other bones.

 

[Richard7]

When I am ordering stuff from Woolies or Coles I get the lamb bones and roo mince too.

The lamb breast cooking time is so short because the cut is so thin.

You certainly have been doing your research. I have mostly given up - just a waste of energy.

Anxiety is a powerful motivator. And I was really in a hole when I read that research back in 2016.

 

[Lolo]

I have never seen lamb breast. Is is fatty? I buy the forequarter lamb chops as they are the fattiest and the cheapest. Are you managing to eat enough fat according to PKD.

I tested positive for Pyroluria and when I took the B6 and Zinc my anxiety went away. But now that I have created this bubble of a life I don't take them as I have very little stress . It might help if I did though. I am over taking supps, it's an effort to switch the brain on and think about so I don't.

 

[Richard7]

Lamb breast is very fatty, The fat is at least as thick as the meat. Or at least I should say untrimmed lamb breast is like this. The fat is mostly on the side that would be closest to the skin.

 

[Lolo]

I'll have to look out for some. Maybe the butcher I go to could cut it with the fat on.

I am not feeling like desperate for a sleep this afternoon. I've only had 2 cups bone broth with a little bit of coconut milk. Most unusual.

 

[outdamnspot]

Well, I figured out that the 'energy' I thought I was experiencing on Carnivore was in fact a histamine reaction to bovine gel capsules as I was using for powdered supplements; as soon as I switched back to vegetable capsules yesterday, all the energy disappeared and I hit the same wall I always do on Zero Carb (even with adequate fat and calories). I cooked some liver last night because I was desperate to get some carbs, and it's helped with my energy levels today, but also caused a histamine reaction *sigh*.

So seems like I'm at a bit of a dead-end, since my body needs carbohydrates to function but they're all riddled with histamine, salicylates etc.

 

[outdamnspot]

Is it possible that abstinence from plant foods can worsen our intolerance towards them? I added back in some iceberg lettuce at dinner last night (after over a week of not eating plants) and the results today aren't pretty.

 

[sb4]

@outdamnspot Yes I have heard this happening several times. There is of course the idea that changing diet abruptly causes microbiome to adjust and this can take a few days, but, there is also the possibility that your "immune" system has not become sensitive to those foods.

 

[Lolo]

I am reading Heal Your Gut by Lee Holmes as someone on a FB group is doing the protocol and finding benefits in less than a week. The protocol starts off with slippery elm powder porridge and liquid foods - soups, smoothies, teas. I'm not going to do it because I don't have gut problems. I just like to read different ideas. Lee Holmes had autoimmune disease and fibromyalgia and improved her health dramatically after the doctors not helping and doing research. It might be worthwhile for others to read.

Quote from the book: " Once I started paying attention to my gut, my anxiety and depression dissipated."

@Richard7 I can get lamb breast from the butcher I go to. I have asked that they don't trim off so much fat.

 

[Richard7]

Glad to hear it @Lolo I hope you enjoy it

Sorry to hear that things are not going so well for you @outdamnspot

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I kinda follow Jordan Peterson (admire his courage, and intelligence. Agree with a lot of his stuff. Not so fan of his body language and comunication skills, which would be really important for the battle his trying to fight. In other words he seems weak but try to look tough. But getting way off topic here haha).

I've been "kinda" attending to JP myself...a fascinating intellect and character plus the entire sociology of the moment, as they say...... But I won't digress, other than to state- no I don't wanna end up: living on steak.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

the salad cos it can mean a lot of thing

Here, I do best with warm, cooked food and Salad: can really cause serious problems for me. Wiped out four days when I forgot and ate some lovely arugula at dinner.

Also a comment that I simply have observed more and more odd issues with the TIMING of WHEN I might eat What. So recently some fresh greens I can get down early in the day, are entirely unacceptable to eat at nite.

I have alot of raw food friends. They are way into it. I cannot remotely survive it.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

which condemn meat and dairy consumption and push Plant-based diets QUOTE]

Its a frustrating topic because I'd really like to not participate in animal production, and I do buy and support the Happier Animal Sources. Alot of vegans don't understand that there are people who cannot tolerate that diet.

Before I was as intense with this ME as I am now, I would starve at the vegetarian retreats. It just does not fuel this system.

 

[Lolo]

@Rufous McKinney I can't do raw foods either. An occasional salad is fine but also I find them unsatisfying, always hungry afterwards. Can't do cold foods either except in the height of summer.

I was vegan when I first got CFS and starting feeling better when starting eating meat. When I was vegan I ate huge meals to fill me up. I have always been surprised how little food is recommended in health books and so I have been trying to reduce the amount that I eat, don't know if it's doable. And yet Terry Wahl got better from eating loads of veggies.