Carnivore Diet for ME?

Richard7

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I'm only using the supplements that seem necessary. I mentioned them because the people at paleomedicina say that vegetable oils and supplements/medicines are the two things that cause the greatest increase in permeability.
 

Lolo

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I have been looking at the Paleomedicina site. They don't give much away. Without dairy, nuts and coconut oil it would be difficult to get the recommended amount of fat unless you deep fry everything in something like lard.

And I find it strange that you can have herbs but not herbal tea.
 
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Richard7

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@Lolo I cannot say that I have worked all of this out.

At the moment I am mostly relying on brisket for fat. I have a local butcher who delivers and has been pretty good at getting unusual things for me (sweetbreads, calf livers etc) and I ordered an untrimmed on the bone brisket cut into 2kg roasting pieces. I roast it at 160C in a romertoph, though I am sure there are other ways.

There are pretty clear layers of fat and lean in the meat. I could not get figures for untrimmed brisket, but could get them for cooked brisket lean and for separable beef fat, so I use them to work out how much of each I need and cut blocks of fat and lean out of the roast accordingly.

The brisket I am eating at the moment is more than 2:1 so someone meeting the 2:1 ratio would be able to have a little bit of lean meat alongside it. At the moment as I am not meeting the PKD's 2:1 ratio but only 1.2:1 or 1.3:1 I can use the brisket for about half of my protein and all of my fat.

I have also use lard to spread onto slices of pork. And have eaten lamb breast which seems to have a similar fat to protein ratio. The pork belly I have bought recently has been too lean, but it is usually similarly fatty.

I have also been considering making some sort of confit, to see if that works as a way to make rendered fat seem more palatable.

Amber O'Hearn has some ideas on her site http://www.empiri.ca/2014/11/experiences-of-five-year-carnivore-part_11.html
including blending fat and bone broth in a blender. I know she has also mentioned buying pork side which is the same cut as bacon but not cured.

I have read of other people ordering trim fat from their butchers, which is something I plan to ask about next time I order meat.

I don't think deep frying would do much good.

I cannot see anything on the paleomedicina site about being able to have herbs. I am still watering my savoury, rosemary, sage, oregano and thyme but am wondering what to do with them.
 

Lolo

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@Richard7 Yes I saw that, 30 euro. Not cheap and not knowing how much info they are going to give you or read any reviews. How do you know that what they are saying online is true? Most books giving this sort of info are under $30.00. I am able to get most of these sorts of books from the library so that I can check them out.

Something mentioned on (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323151200_Therapeutic_protocol_of_Paleomedicina_Hungary) is that "every human is able to eat utilize animal meat and fat." which is not entirely true. There have been people on the east coast of Australia that have developed an allergy to meat from mammals from a tick bite.

I assumed herbs were allowed because they are greens. My thyme and oregano died from the heat. Rosemary and sage are struggling but we have had a little rain here today, the first time all year which is very unusual, usually it pours down. Some of my greens are still alive. I like growing plants, propagating etc. keeps me sane.

I did find it difficult on carnivore just drinking water, missed having a cuppa and so I did. I make bone broth but have had trouble drinking it as by the time it is cool enough the fat is floating on top. Yuk!! And cooking it without plants, it's not so nice. I usually cook my mince in it or chopped up precooked roast. So I see on the link you posted that blending it emulsify s it and that maybe more satisfying than straight water. I just tried blending and the fat is still floating on the top.

Don't know if you have seen this.https://nourishedkitchen.com/bone-broth-minerals/

I picked up some lamb fat trimmings free from the butcher. (I did spend $110 there.) I put the fat out in the sun to render but it rained, most unexpected. I also bought some kidneys from the organic butcher. The fat from the organic butcher was $37.00 per kilo. A bit much for me. This is an expensive way to eat but if supps are not required, it probably evens out.

I haven't seen any mention about omega 6 and omega 3 ratios in these high fat diets. My understanding that non grass fed have higher omega 6 tipping the balance the wrong way.
 

Richard7

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Yes, my first thought was also to compare the price to the price of a book.

re the meat allergy thing I have read that there are also issues in some parts of the USA. Listening to podcasts and watching a presentation on youtube I have been concerned about what seems to be paleodogmatism. Where a statement seems to stem from a theory about what humans ate before farming (meat, honey and perhaps some fruit) and yet at other times I have heard Clemens expressing her irritation at people who do make statements from theory without testing them to see if the theory holds.

In my case I can digest neither meat nor fat without exogenous acid and enzymes.

My understanding is that they have a treatment diet that is just meat and fat and water, with a fat to protein ratio of 2:1. And a diet for those who are healthy which is stated in one place to be 30% vegetables and fruits by volume. And I understand that these are to be paleo/ancestral fruits and vegetables and not to include nightshades. In a podcast Clemens described people as eating vegetables twice a week.

Its a shame that stock and fat trick did not work, I was planning on trying it tomorrow. I am now cooking some osso buco, or rather slices of beef shin without anything else, and bone broth and was planning on trying that trick.

I have rendered fat but I did not try to do it in the sun, I am not sure that that would work, I did it in an oven tray in a low oven and then pressed the solids to squeeze all of the fat out.

The thing is that I vastly prefer the fat that is part of a piece of meat (cooked adipose tissue) to rendered fat, so I was thinking of just cooking the fat, which would leave me with a lot of cooked adipose tissue sitting in a fair amount of rendered fat. My idea then being to eat the cooked adipose tissue with leaner pieces of meat (kidneys, drumsticks etc) and the use the rendered fat for the stock trick that did not work.
 

outdamnspot

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Did anyone else here feel a little 'strange' (for lack of a better word) after consuming animal liver, especially for the first time? Yesterday, I tried veal liver (my first experience with liver) before bed. Typically, if I opt for a meat-only day, my inflammation/gut symptoms are a lot better but I'm disabled by fatigue. After having the liver, I woke up with far more energy, but some symptoms feel worse -- mostly POTS/parasympathetic stuff, feel kinda brainfogged, very hungry, sinuses are a little congested etc. I also did have a rather large serving -- about a 200g steak-size piece.

I can't really find any reason liver would be bad: it has salicylates, but is listed as low. Is it possible it's correcting some deficiency and/or getting my immune system going?
 

Lolo

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outdamnspot I don't have any problem eating liver.

This Keto doesn't seem to be agreeing with me. I am always hungry. I ate cheese which I don't think agrees with me, I am not sure, but that made me constipated. So I stopped that and tried to eat more fat, well that gave me diarrhea. I think I'll go back to Paleo, it's hard to remember but I think I felt satisfied. Just will make sure I don't overdose on the carbs. The problem is when I have low energy I want to eat but maybe I am not really hungry and sometimes it's because I'm bored. I didn't have this problem on carnivore though but that woe didn't suit at all.
 

outdamnspot

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I think my liver reaction was actually histamine, which seems odd since it isn't listed as high, and I'm fine with ground beef.
 

ChrisD

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Did anyone else here feel a little 'strange' (for lack of a better word) after consuming animal liver, especially for the first time?e
Yes It’s funny you should say that, I usually have a slight increase in symptoms the next day but then feel the benefits over the course of a week or two. I haven’t quite worked out what it is either but was thinking it might be the large dose of Vitamin A activating the immune system.
 

outdamnspot

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Yes It’s funny you should say that, I usually have a slight increase in symptoms the next day but then feel the benefits over the course of a week or two. I haven’t quite worked out what it is either but was thinking it might be the large dose of Vitamin A activating the immune system.
I did think it could be immune activation too but wasn't sure the mechanism. As I say though, histamine also seems plausible, but I'm okay with ground beef, fish etc; I guess the test will be how I feel tomorrow. Are you able to tolerate histaminergic foods?
 

Richard7

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@outdamnspot I've found that I have less of a desire for liver and all of the more adventurous offal. I am mostly eating brisket, pork shoulder, kidneys, hearts, bone stock and a bit of marrow. I also occasionally have a bit of salmon.

The other offal I have in the freezer (brains, sweetbreads and liver) just seem a bit much at the moment. They have I guess always been something that I eat because I feel I need to rather than because I want to, or at least this is so when they are by themselves. If I could use vegetables I would like pate spread on sticks of celery slices of carrot, swede and beetroot.

I have found in general that my PoTS is less severe on this diet. But if and when I next feel like liver I will watch to see if there is a change.

Like @Lolo I have had problems with fat malabsorbtion diarrhoea. I did see a a youtube video by a Dr Boz on ketogenic diets who said that this was common in people who had suffered from SIBO (which I did for many years). Her take on it was that the gut was damaged and would take a while to repair. With her patients (which seem to be mostly cancer) she advises fasting to give the gut a chance to repair in the absence of food. I do not feel up to fasting at the moment.

I have slightly broken the diet by adding coffee. I seemed ok without for about 6-8 wks and then I had several weeks where I was really exhausted and was overeating by something like 1.5 - 2x in an obviously vain attempt to get more energy.
 

Lolo

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I couldn't eat offal while on carnivore but it's not a problem with veg.

I may have/had gut damage from eating grains but I haven't eaten any for probably 5 years. Bone broth is suppose to help with healing the gut which I consume regularly.

I woke early this morning with a heaviness on my chest which went away after relaxing with yoga nidra. But it has returned now after eating yoghurt with coconut. I am sure it is the dairy, will have to stop it. :(

I don't think I could do a fast as I can't do enough to distract myself, currently doing IF though. The less I am in the kitchen the better. :)
 

BeADocToGoTo1

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...

Like [USER=20252]@Lolo
I have had problems with fat malabsorbtion diarrhoea. I did see a a youtube video by a Dr Boz on ketogenic diets who said that this was common in people who had suffered from SIBO (which I did for many years). Her take on it was that the gut was damaged and would take a while to repair. With her patients (which seem to be mostly cancer) she advises fasting to give the gut a chance to repair in the absence of food. I do not feel up to fasting at the moment.

I have slightly broken the diet by adding coffee. I seemed ok without for about 6-8 wks and then I had several weeks where I was really exhausted and was overeating by something like 1.5 - 2x in an obviously vain attempt to get more energy.
outdamnspot I don't have any problem eating liver.

This Keto doesn't seem to be agreeing with me. I am always hungry. I ate cheese which I don't think agrees with me, I am not sure, but that made me constipated. So I stopped that and tried to eat more fat, well that gave me diarrhea. I think I'll go back to Paleo, it's hard to remember but I think I felt satisfied. Just will make sure I don't overdose on the carbs. The problem is when I have low energy I want to eat but maybe I am not really hungry and sometimes it's because I'm bored. I didn't have this problem on carnivore though but that woe didn't suit at all.
Hi Richard7 and Lolo,

Not sure whether you have seen my post on malabsorption and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, but this might be of interest to your situation:

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...y-epi-and-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-cfs.62997/
 
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BeADocToGoTo1

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Does anyone test their ketones? Some authors highly recommend it.
I have a KetoMojo blood tester that I used to see the effect of intermittent fasting and various dietary changes. It is more effective than urine strips as just having high levels of ketones in urine does not mean you are utilizing them, nor does absence in urine mean you are not producing any.
 

BeADocToGoTo1

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Did anyone else here feel a little 'strange' (for lack of a better word) after consuming animal liver, especially for the first time? Yesterday, I tried veal liver (my first experience with liver) before bed. Typically, if I opt for a meat-only day, my inflammation/gut symptoms are a lot better but I'm disabled by fatigue. After having the liver, I woke up with far more energy, but some symptoms feel worse -- mostly POTS/parasympathetic stuff, feel kinda brainfogged, very hungry, sinuses are a little congested etc. I also did have a rather large serving -- about a 200g steak-size piece.

I can't really find any reason liver would be bad: it has salicylates, but is listed as low. Is it possible it's correcting some deficiency and/or getting my immune system going?
I read liver is supposed to be full of vitamins and minerals, but keep in mind it is also the toxin filter of an animal. So, I guess you have to be super careful about what the animal ate, how it lived and what toxins it was exposed to both in its environment, water and the feed quality. Animal feed is these days often full of pesticides, herbicides, hormones, antibiotics, etc. So then our liver and digestion system has to work extra hard to filter all that out from the liver we just ate.

For those people contemplating eating even more meat in the hope it will provide more benefit should take into consideration how much of that your body is actually able to break down into usable amino acids, essential fatty acids, vitamins and minerals in one sitting, as opposed to ending up with expensive stool. It can also put an extra strain on the system.