Carnivore Diet for ME?

outdamnspot

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Can transitioning from keto to carnivore and not getting enough fat trigger a crash? While working around dietary intolerances I inadvertently ate almost exclusively protein the past two days. I've been on keto for 3 years, and feel so weak I can't move; it's actually worrying. But I also wonder it my body has become used to fat as an energy source and i accidentally starved it?
 

ChrisD

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Can transitioning from keto to carnivore and not getting enough fat trigger a crash? While working around dietary intolerances I inadvertently ate almost exclusively protein the past two days. I've been on keto for 3 years, and feel so weak I can't move; it's actually worrying. But I also wonder it my body has become used to fat as an energy source and i accidentally starved it?
I've tried to get into Carnivore quite a few times now and whilst I see the immediate benefits of totally cutting out fermentable fibers etc. (Improved breathing, muscle strength etc), I quickly lose a lot of energy after a couple of days and struggle to gain it even with fat.

Of course the carnivore community and carnivore friends say "oh that's just adaptation, or die off, or you need to adjust your macros" but it's too worrying for me to lose the limited amount of function I have managed to sustain with Keto. So nowadays I stick to a cyclical diet of mainly Keto, with Carnivore days and every now and then a carb re feed with rice or sweet potato and that seems to work well for me in terms of maintenance and slight improvement.
 

sb4

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@ChrisD My brother is doing Carnivore and he said he experienced a lot of fatigue and lack of energy until he started really upping the amount of meat he was eating, like stuffing his face.

I think because meat is fulling and bland sometimes people can assume they are getting enough when on carnivore you are getting more protein and less fat than keto meaning you need to eat a lot more.

I don't know if thats the case with you but it could be something to consider.
 

Lolo

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@ChrisD My brother is doing Carnivore and he said he experienced a lot of fatigue and lack of energy until he started really upping the amount of meat he was eating, like stuffing his face.

I think because meat is fulling and bland sometimes people can assume they are getting enough when on carnivore you are getting more protein and less fat than keto meaning you need to eat a lot more.

I don't know if thats the case with you but it could be something to consider.
Yes I have read that a lot of people don't eat enough meat on this diet. I was eating 1.5 - 2 kilo meat a day at the beginning, a little less now.
 
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I have gone from Keto to carnivore then back to Keto......I ran into the same issues as Chris on carnivore...I need more fat and carbs to function...
I am now doing KETO with 3000mg of FLUSH niacin a day after hearing of a successful recovery on that protocol
 

ChrisD

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I have gone from Keto to carnivore then back to Keto......I ran into the same issues as Chris on carnivore...I need more fat and carbs to function...
I am now doing KETO with 3000mg of FLUSH niacin a day after hearing of a successful recovery on that protocol
I have heard at least ten people with ME now saying that they hit a brick wall with Carnivore. With a few people with self described Chronic fatigue on Twitter saying that it's worked wonders. I'm wondering if Liver and gut dysfunction means that we are not totally able to utilise the available fat and protein?
 

Lolo

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I have heard at least ten people with ME now saying that they hit a brick wall with Carnivore. With a few people with self described Chronic fatigue on Twitter saying that it's worked wonders. I'm wondering if Liver and gut dysfunction means that we are not totally able to utilise the available fat and protein?
I was vegan when I first got ME/CFS and when someone said to increase my protein and I did I felt a bit better, the body not so stressed feeling. And then when I went Carnivore as I said I felt stronger emotionally and physically pretty quickly and after 4.5 months my energy picked up but not significantly. I am going to stick with it a bit longer as I like the convenience of it - it is more expensive though.

Someone with ME/CFS on a facebook group tried it for 18 mths(?) and didn't notice any difference so now eats keto. There is nothing on Keto that I miss.
 

outdamnspot

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Just tried to transition into carnivore for the second time and crashed again on day 4 (after 3 wonderful high-energy days). It seems like my sleep deteriorates pretty profoundly on high protein (vivid dreams and frequent awakenings). I'm eating a lot of fatty steak but it just doesn't seem to be sufficient.
 

Richard7

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@ChrisD and @Lolo

Is your carnivore diet ketogenic?

From listening to interviews with Zsofia Clemens (and the protocol that ChrisD linked to) I know that the paleomedicina version of this is 2g fat for every gram of protein, so 82% of energy from fat which is shoul be pretty solidly ketogenic.
 

ChrisD

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@ChrisD and @Lolo

Is your carnivore diet ketogenic?

From listening to interviews with Zsofia Clemens (and the protocol that ChrisD linked to) I know that the paleomedicina version of this is 2g fat for every gram of protein, so 82% of energy from fat which is shoul be pretty solidly ketogenic.
My diet is predominantly Ketogenic as mentioned above somewhere, but this is a really hot topic in the online Carnivore communities, most people will tell you that they actually aren't in Ketosis because of the ratio of high protein to moderate fat, and of course the protein breaks down to carbohydrate through gluconeogenesis. But its said that this doesn't matter in terms of energy production, yet it seems to be a struggle to adapt for people with ME in the same way that healthy people or other immune disorders do.

Here is a recent MS recovery story: http://meatheals.com/2019/01/01/catherine-c/
 

Lolo

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@ChrisD and @Lolo

Is your carnivore diet ketogenic?

From listening to interviews with Zsofia Clemens (and the protocol that ChrisD linked to) I know that the paleomedicina version of this is 2g fat for every gram of protein, so 82% of energy from fat which is shoul be pretty solidly ketogenic.
I have never tested my ketones and I can't remember stuff like that. . I am just trying it to see what happens. Some symptoms have gone away - dizziness and that feeling like my brain is swollen. When I ate other foods, I had to eat a lot of food as it never satisfied me. Could never do a salad for lunch or a sandwich, I would still be hungry.
 

Lolo

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QUOTE="ChrisD, post: 1022216, member: 29418"]
Here is a recent MS recovery story:
http://meatheals.com/2019/01/01/catherine-c/[/QUOTE]
Terry Wahl improved greatly from MS with a Paleo diet and has written a book on it and is doing research.
I did do her 9 cups of veg for quite awhile but didn't notice any improvement. I grew my own greens so they were very fresh and organic. The good thing about carnivore is that there are very few decisions need to be made, just which meat am I going to eat now. And it's a relief to not be growing greens all the time.

On that meatheals site on the RHS ME/CFS is not listed in the categories of health conditions. :(

 

Richard7

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Thanks @ Lolo @ChrisD

I became aware of Wahls in 2013 and have tried that approach and variations on it several times.

On this recent attempt at a new keto approach I started with filling my fridge each fortnight with bok choy, chinese broccoli, mushrooms and other high fibre and nutrient low available carb veggies. This version of keto certainly reduced inflammation and improved my PoTS and other problems.

But so did the switch from this version of keto to keto with some cocoa, a handfull of nuts and some fruit (zucchini, tomato, cucumber) to <20g available carb.

And I say keto, but I think that a fair amount of my butyrate must have been coming from fermentation. Because this most recent switch has been accompanied with lower breath acetone readings. I seem to be dipping in and out over the day.

Anyway.

I have been thinking about this paleomedicina presentation
where Zsofia Clemens shows cases of people following their version of the paleo ketogenic diet reducing intestinal permeability.

I know that PoTS and ME are not on the list of conditions that the diet has helped.

If it can reduce permeability I expect/hope that it would reduce inflammation and improve my symptoms. But I have also learned to suspect that all research done on people without ME/CFS is irrelevant, so I have been looking at this thread seeing people's negative and positive experiences and wondering if they were doing a similar diet to paleomedicina or not.

Anyway I am going to give it a go. I plan to keep taking my supplements until I no longer feel like they are needed. I expect that I will need the Betaine HCL and enzymes for a while or perhaps for good.
 

Lolo

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Richard7. Have you started this paleo keto woe? It seems that with this paleo keto diet, organ meat is essential. That's the only difference that I see to carnivore.

I haven't been doing well on carnivore. About a month ago I lost my appetite. . I am only eating about 1/2 the meat that I was eating. Then I got a head cold which is still lingering. So I am not sure what to do at the moment. I really like the carnivore diet because it is quick to shop, prepare, clean up after etc. Not so much standing up. I haven't been eating organ meats because on their own they are a bit strong but when I remember I try to sneak liver in mince. If I eat more fat I get sticky BM's. The only thing I can think of it is to not eat rendered fat, not that I am eating a lot of it. But I don't like to eat much solid fat.

The thing with a plant based diet. I never felt satisfied. Especially things like salads, they just make me hungry.

I was checking the Wahls diet again - Terry now consumes high amounts of coconut milk and oil.
 

Richard7

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Hi @Lolo

yes I am about 1 week in. I am not exactly on the PKD as I am still taking ubiqinol, vitamin k mk4 dissolved in MCT, inositol, ALCAR, NAG, L Rhamnosus, Betaine HCL and enzymes.

I found that as I tapered in this direction, keto with fewer and fewer carbs I started having a clearer sense of my body and having clearer and different food preferences. And these were mostly not to eat/drink things of plant origin.

And I also had less severe PoTS. A month or so ago I was still hitting say 180bpm pretty frequently and mostly horizontal. I would be surprised if I have been above 100 when just standing or walking around in the last fortnight.

In the last week I have had a lot of issues with overbreathing, and had hard muscles and quite a lot of pain - enough to prevent sleeping. I understand this to be a reaction due to changes in blood chemistry - having talked it over with a physiologist who teaches Buteyko. The ketones are acidic so you blow off some blood CO2 to reduce the acidity but this causes a lot of problems with blood and tissue oxygenation leading to the painful and stiff muscles.

I assume that CO2 is the short term adjustment and that other changes in blood chemistry accommodate normal CO2 and moderate BHOB. I also noticed that the Charlie Foundation recommends an electrolyte mix including sodium bicarbonate - which seems to rectify the problem.

Having had a couple of nights of good sleep I can now focus on the next problem which is that I am not absorbing all of this fat. I think this means that I am just not producing enough bile and using enough enzymes. I have previously found that I only produce enough bile if I am either eating a lot of liver or drinking a lot of hibiscus tea (two or three glasses made ribena- thick with loose hibiscus flowers). So I am eating liver and taking ox bile and planning to use more enzymes.

I am going to break this into two posts.
 

Richard7

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I am still trying to work out how best to manage the food.

Last Friday I bought 2.5kg of lamb breast which I roasted. Looking in nutritional tables it seems to be about the right ratio of fat to protein 2:1. And I just used a knife to cut the cold roasted meat into individual ribs ( most of the time - there were some parts of the breast where that did not work) and ate them with some salt.

I imagine that untrimmed beef brisket would be as good, I plan to ask a butcher about this. I had not had pork belly for several years, but ordered some recently and found that the supermarket had trimmed all the fat out of it. So I guess it is a special request from the butcher too. Luckily I have a butcher who delivers.

I like pork and beef (ox) kidney and usually just pan fry them, but they can also be cooked along side the lamb in the oven. I do not have cooking times I use a digital thermometer that has an alarm to tell me when the right temperature has been reached.

I used to eat liver as liver/meat loaf, meatballs or pate. These days I like it best just pan fried, but it needs to be warm for me to be able to eat it. I like beef liver best. They are large 3.5 - 5kg but cheap. I cut them into pieces, bag them and freeze them. I have also had pork liver which made a fine pate, but have not tried it pan fried. Lambs fry makes excellent pate with sage and mushrooms and is ok pan fried, well it is excellent pan fried with mushrooms and butter, but obviously I am now pan frying it with dripping last night it did not seem quite as good.

I can say the same of lambs brains, I love them with lemon juice, butter and parsley, in a stir fry with oyster sauce or curried. But plain is a little difficult.

I like beef heart It is one of those meats that has to either be cooked quickly, or for a long time (45 minutes in the pressure cooker) It is wonderful mixed with kidney and either round or chuck in a rendang. But on PKD I would say prepare it but cutting out the heart strings, the hard bits where they attach to the muscle, and check to see if you have and hard bits around the valve and cut them off. Then cut off the fat and slice the meat as you would for a stir fry or in fingers up to about 1 cm thick. Pan fry adding the fat first as it takes longer to cook than the meat - if cut to stir fry thickness).

Lamb and pork hearts have a milder flavour, pork I find a little harder to get - have to go and talk to a butcher - but lamb and beef are available from coles and woolies.

Tongue is kind of wonderful, or at least was in in curries and stews in which it picks up flavour and adds texture and richness. To cook it I have always pressure cooked it, then peeled it. I have in the past then pan fried slices with eggs and blood sausage and so on. I guess on the PKD this would be the way to do it but it has very little flavour on its own.

I have not yet tried sweet breads on spleen yet.

When it comes to fat, I have no trouble eating the fat which is in the meat. Lard seems ok spread on cold pork. But eating cold dripping is mostly a chore. Last night I had the idea of adding all the extra fat I needed to the liver and then ate the fat as if it was a soup.

I imagine a trick like this could be done with a really fatty bone broth.
 

Lolo

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I have never been able to do Buteyko or Wim Hof breathing as I found it tiring.

Also wanted to add to my post above that I found it interesting that the PKD, Zsofia Clemens states in an interview that MCT and coconut oil etc are inflammatory but I wouldn't think that Terry Wahl would eat or recommend infammatory foods. I think I might add coconut products and see what happens.

Looking at Wahl's meal plans, I would be constantly hungry.

I cook roo mince in bone broth which has a layer of fat of top of it when cold.
 
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Richard7

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I think that the problem with Buteyko is that the underlying assumption is that the client/patient is a either a healthy person who adopted a sick person's breathing pattern while ill and can now drop it (shades of Simon Wesley). Or in asthmatics that the patient has a common but unhelpful response to a trigger that actually makes things worse, and therefore needs to be trained to respond differently.

I do not think it applies to ME/CFS. I did find that the breathing exercises helped when I was in a lot of pain earlier this week. But that physiologist I spoke to was not in favour of my use of the exercises as it was working against my bodies attempts to balance blood acidity.

I have not tried Wim Hof breathing.

Re Whals MCT and so on.

The people at paleomedicina have the technology to do detailed intestinal permeability tests and as they work with about 500 patients a year they must have a lot of data. The problem is that we do not know as outsiders if they are seeing that people who eat plant oils have leakier guts/ more inflammation and saying that MCT is a plant oil therefore MCT is a problem, or if they have actually tested MCT.

Whals was basing her recommendations on reading the literature.

Of course Paleomedicina could be doing the same. I know that I have seen a table listing Caprylic and Capric acid (C8 and C10) as things that increase paracellular permeability. But triglycerides are not the same thing as free fatty acids. Indeed I heard a podcast in which Dom D'Agostino talked about making that mistake and burning his finger (I think - it may have been tongue) with a drop of the free fatty acid when he ordered it by mistake.

I plan to keep using MCTs while I try to work out my issues with fat malabsorbtion. Then I will see if I need it or not.

I hope that we somehow stumble onto a solution @Lolo .
 

Lolo

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Yes Richard, a lot of the problem with these sort of statements is that it is hard to isolate things. Like all the hooah about fats - now which fats are we talking about? And what else were people eating at the same time? MCT oils may cause inflammation in a high carb diet? But what about a low carb diet.? I think you get my drift. And ME/CFS is another ball game altogether.

The reason I first went vegan many years ago was because I thought I had problems digesting fat but really what I should have done was stopped gluten (grains).
 

Richard7

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@Lolo (and anyone else who is interested) I thought I should do an update.

I tried having something like the fat intake that paleomedicina suggest but really cannot absorb that much. I am having trouble absorbing 1.2:1, but I am overweight and so I am still in ketosis at this ratio - mostly at about 4mMol 1st thing in the morning (using a urine test).

In terms of supplements I am now just taking Betaine HCL, enzymes, ALCAR, n acetyl glucosamine, a bit of inositol (meant to help with fat metabolism), sodium and potassium chloride, magnesium sulphate, calcium phosphate and some probiotics ( l rhamnosus and symbioflor 2). The list used to be a lot longer.

I found that the betaine hcl and the some of the enzymes contained additives that I want to drop and have ordered replacements.

Symptom-wise I am sleeping better, am less horizontal (during the day) and alert for more of each day. So things are better but I still feel like I am in some kind of transition.