Carnivore Diet for ME?

[Folk]

I'll have to try it. Do you have a good recipe? I'll have to work myself up to it, but i did read that the heart was high in coq10 which some people on here have used to help with energy...

We normally do it with coarse salt on a stick on barbecue (with charcoal and fire) like this: https://content.paodeacucar.com/wp-...07/melhores-carnes-para-churrasco-coração.jpg

But that's just the optimal way, you don't have to do all this job. Just using salt and frying it on a pan would work to, just be sure to make it very crunchy. (you can try garlic too if you tolerate it, I don't)

 

[E.man]

Try chicken heart. It's total social conditioning. Here in Brazil chicken heart is expensive and present in any barbecue (I live in the south, Rio Grande do Sul, the place know for it's barbecue along with Uruguay and Argentina) and tastes delicious.

Found Chicken heart in the supermarket ! Tried them in the frying pan. I can see how they would go OK cooked to crunchy on a BBQ with a drink. Pan fry was more difficult to get a uniform result. Some were crispy others chewy. No discernible taste. Not rushing to try it again due to variable pan fry result.

 

[BadBadBear]

I am not an organ meat eater at all but this recipe for chicken liver is really good. Crispy them up and dip in BBQ sauce.

https://www.everydaymaven.com/crispy-spiced-chicken-livers/

 

[Folk]

I found really hard to stay on only meat diet, I just didn't wanna eat, meat was becoming repulsive, specially after trying ox liver (I didn't do it correctly but it made nauseous for the rest of the day). Triied for a little bit more than a week and didn't see many benefits (know it's a short period).
I'm back on keto, just trying to increase fat intake since I've never really wen't pass 1.1 ketones on the blood ( although that was my max, I'm normally 0.3/0.7.
So I discovered a amazing fat bomb desert. Get one square of 85% dark chocolate. melt it and mix 4-5 spoons of coconut oil. than freezes. IT tastes even better than the pure chocolate, t's refreshing and increase volume without adding more sugar. Also helped my constipation big time.

Still curious about carnivore if anyone can endure it...

 

[kelly8]

I found that us wellness meats makes a ground burger that has heart in it. They ship it frozen. The meat is grass fed too. Might be good since I'm not sure i could stomach the heart muscle alone.

I make a chicken liver meat loaf for my family that is good but once my hubby found out the secret ingredient he has been not interested in eating it. But if i cook the meatloaf down into spaghetti sauce no one is the wiser.

When i was preggo with my son i craved that meatloaf. The ob nurses told me to avoid liver but i wasn't able to take my prenatals due to a problem processing folic acid. Other cultures make pregnant women eat a special diet including liver so i figured the extra nutrients could only help.

 

[ChrisD]

I've been doing this diet 5 days so far, eating only Ground Beef, some eggs, some chicken and a bit of bacon. It feel like the whole arduous process of transferring from Paleo to Keto all over again but so far I would say there are interesting signs; it definitely feels like something is shifting - I think due to the high amount of fats and cholesterol, it gives a healthy boost to hormones. I'm noticing that I don't have symptom increase after meals and feel quite clear headed (and in my body if that makes sense). I seem to be sleeping longer and deeper but still wake up feeling only refreshed in the head and not in the muscles (which has been happening throughout Keto).

My gut feeling says that this diet may be too hard on the liver though (especially with ME Liver issues) as I have had some dark urine and a bit of chest tightness which I read is caused by Gallbladder - Vagus Nerve interaction.

 

[nanonug]

I'm noticing that I don't have symptom increase after meals and feel quite clear headed

In ketosis, you are no longer dependent on glucose/pyruvate for energy production. Considering that the hypometabolic state in SEID has been found to be due to dysfunction in the conversion of pyruvate to acetyl-CoA, it makes sense that a strict ketogenic diet would help.

I've done (almost) strict keto before and my results are comparable to yours. But I always find myself reverting to carbs after some time (usually a bit less than a year) because I love carbs so much. I wish I didn't!

Last, but not least, congratulations on your improvement!

I have had some dark urine

Most common cause is dehydration. It can be a bunch of other different things but bile is also another strong contender. You may want to do (at least) Urinalysis/Liver Panel while on the diet to see what is happening.

 

[Lolo]

I have just started this diet as well, 2 days. I have noticed positive changes as well. The first being my teeth feel better, yeah weird. I have been trying to describe how I feel and it's a sort of lightness but the word clear works as well. The body doesn't feel so strained.

I was thinking this morning that I need to work on my core muscles to help the body stand up now that I feel a tad better.
The first day I easily drank a lot more water but needed to eat more fat, that's going to be a challenge for me. I also have noticed darker urine so will make sure I keep drinking water.
I have a stack of supps so will continue with them until I run out and then see how I go.

I had just planted a stack of herb and greens seeds a week ago so don't know what I am going to do about those except get tempted to eat them. And I was looking forward to planting some strawberry plants. And I probably will eat some mulberries when they fruit again.

But I really like the convenience of this diet Not spending so much time in the kitchen is a big plus for me.

 

[ChrisD]

In ketosis, you are no longer dependent on glucose/pyruvate for energy production. Considering that the hypometabolic state in SEID has been found to be due to dysfunction in the conversion of pyruvate to acetyl-CoA, it makes sense that a strict ketogenic diet would help.

Indeed, the whole time I have been doing Keto, I have not experienced what I would describe as PENE/PEM - Or a Post exertion immune flare, as soon as I eat carbs I get that and also get lactic acidosis and muscle pain.

So far on Carnivore this has actually been a rollercoaster experience for me; The first couple of days I saw a lot of positives including improved deeper and longer sleep, even more mental clarity (than Keto), just feeling a bit more 'normal', Less muscle tightness and crepitus, more physical strength. Then all of a sudden on day 3/4, things flipped and I have had a big flare up of my worst symptoms that occured during paleo eating or before that; Neurological things, Inflamed sinuses and chest tightness/air hunger, Really sluggish and heavy, a bit of PEM back again, plus new symptoms like Chest pain associated with Gall bladder function, Becoming nauseous when sitting up right, Diarrhoea after walking.

I'm now on day 7 and this is all starting to pass so I am wondering if it was some kind of immune flare, or the infamous 'Die-off'. I have also wondered if I am in a deeper ketosis and therefore have heard there is a period where mitochondrial function weakens before repairing.

Anyway, I can still see some benefits so will persevere for another week and check-in, I am cautious about reversing the progress I have made so far. @Lolo Glad you have seen some signs of improvement too!

 

[ChrisD]

This experiment hasn't really gone so well for me, I pushed on but just kept losing energy to the point that I have been housebound for the past few weeks, which I have not been for a year. In an elimination/fodmaps sense, the diet makes so much sense and many people with inflammatory/autoimmune and Neuroimmune conditions are seeing big improvements.

It is frequently reported that there is this adaption period that can go on for weeks where your body changes it's fuel source, I was already Keto adapted so I thought it would be easy but apparently not. Maybe I was lacking something or causing a deficiency? I've reverted to Keto now and am recovering from the setback, but conversely I ate a salad last night and it caused me to feel very inflamed and brought back the post-meal issues with chest tightness, air hunger, nausea that I did not experience on Carnivore.

Going forward I think I will use a Low Fodmap Keto Carnivore diet Hybrid and see how that goes, it's so frustrating when it's clear that diet is exacerbating symptoms but you cannot find the perfect fit to eliminate this trigger!

 

[bertiedog]

but conversely I ate a salad last night and it caused me to feel very inflamed and brought back the post-meal issues

Can you say what you ate exactly regarding the salad cos it can mean a lot of things. I am similar to you in that a get a lot of negative reactions after eating anything with more than a few carbs.

Pam

 

[ChrisD]

Can you say what you ate exactly regarding the salad cos it can mean a lot of things. I am similar to you in that a get a lot of negative reactions after eating anything with more than a few carbs.
Pam

So what with my intentions to eat Low Fodmap, I researched and created a salad consisting of Baby Gem Lettuce, Cucumber, Tuna Mayo, Mozzarella and some caesar dressing (low ingredient) - all should have been quite okay. But it was a return to this same reaction that I have experienced for so long now of tightness and feeling like my body is constricted. It occurs less if I chew more but it is still there and I have tried ACV/Digestive enzymes before eating. I also take a lot of probiotics that seem to sometimes help.

 

[bertiedog]

I am trying to get into ketosis but having huge issues especially in the mornings. Unless I eat about 3 ounces of whole milk yoghurt with a teaspoon of Psyllium I cannot even get out of bed because I feel so dizzy and weak. At this time my blood sugar was 4.7 fasting.

My issues are how my blood sugar responds to food in that I am either not making enough insulin during the day or otherwise I am severely insulin resistant. I don't have any weight issues apart from carrying a couple of excess pounds around my stomach. This has improved already 2 weeks of trying to cut right back on carbs and I lost 4lbs in weight. I really don't want to loose anymore weight.

I think I have a lot of problems because I have to take 6 mg Prednisolone every morning because I have adrenal insufficiency. Along with this I take dessicated thyroid meds. I have read how Prednisolone can cause insulin resistance but looking back I think I started having bad issues with insulin going back probably 40 years but because my fasting blood sugar is ok it is never picked up.

Also my HbA1C is ok at 35 but that's only because I have been restricting carbs for 20 years.

Because I get such swings of energy throughout the day and severe daily migraines I am committed to see if my body can adapt to a Keto diet but I am trying the Intervention Phase of the Eades Protein Power Lifeplan which allows between 8-10 carbs per meal and a total of 10 gms of a high fat snack.

For a long time I have often thought I could recover my energy if I could control my blood glucose. During the day it is usually around 6 even if I haven't eaten for hours which is very frustrating. Since eating a more fat and a bit more protein it is still the same but it's early days.

I am very impressed how you all get into ketosis as I have only managed this after a walk with my dog but as soon as I have my evening meal I am back out of it. So frustrating.

Pam

 

[bertiedog]

So what with my intentions to eat Low Fodmap, I researched and created a salad consisting of Baby Gem Lettuce, Cucumber, Tuna Mayo, Mozzarella and some caesar dressing (low ingredient) - all should have been quite okay. But it was a return to this same reaction that I have experienced for so long now of tightness and feeling like my body is constricted. It occurs less if I chew more but it is still there and I have tried ACV/Digestive enzymes before eating. I also take a lot of probiotics that seem to sometimes help.

I see what you mean, there doesn't seem anything obvious carb-wise to have caused this. I always take a digestive enzyme with each meal and also use targeted probiotics.

Hope you find some answers.

Pam

 

[ChrisD]

Some additional info from Hungary on the Paleo Ketogenic Carnivore diet (80% meat)

Abstract
Paleolithic ketogenic diet (PKD): A diet covering and limited to our physiological needs We have developed the PKD in 2010-2011. Previously we have been using the paleolithic diet which proved to be ineffective in the vast majority of chronic conditions. We believe that the PKD is the only evolutionary adapted diet for humans. Rehabilitation of chronic diseases is most effective when the diet is limited to our real physiological needs. Eating fruits and vegetables does not form part of our physiological need but are associated with risks. Plant foods can only be regarded as "relatively" safe and only when certain plant food items are consumed and only in limited amounts. The diet was derived from clinical evidence and was not primarily influenced by archeological or ethnographic evidence, given that the application of the diet is clinical too. Altogether clinical experience was derived from about 4000 patients. Characterizaton of the PKD • 70-100% animal based food, 0-30% plant based foods (in volume) "Diet exactly confined to our needs" "Physiologically still tolerable diet"

Therapeutic protocol of Paleomedicina Hungary (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323151200_Therapeutic_protocol_of_Paleomedicina_Hungary [accessed Apr 10 2018].

 

[Learner1]

Interesting discussion and link to the PKD diet.

Sounds like many of us would have to start in an inpatient setting... wonder where those are in the western US?

They take people off of all supplements. Wonder what this does for the one big thing the ME/CFS Clinicians all agree on, oxidative stress? How would glutathione, alpha lipoic acid, A, C, and E be acquired?

And what about folate for the one carbon metabolism, which is essential to immune function common neurotransmitter production, proper replication of DNA, and prevention of cancer?

 

[ChrisD]

They only operate out of Hungary in Budapest but also offer Skype appointments.
From another source I understand that they believe that most supplements are capable of causing more intestinal permeability (which is a new idea to me).
I think most of those nutrients can be acquired from meat products naturally, glutathione production is up-regulated from Liver consumption, A and E are in organ meats too.
There is quite a large community of people using carnivore for Chronic illness and health, these questions are frequently asked and some people have speculated that the need for Vitamin C is reduced when carbs are reduced, same goes for a number of other vitamins http://borntoeatmeat.com/?p=699

As for Folate, you can have eggs.

 

[Learner1]

I'm allergic to eggs, so that won't be happening, though I note that liver, where toxins are concentrated, is a good source folate.

And, I am responding to my labs which continuously show high lipid peroxides and depletion of all antioxidants, even with significant supplementation. This oxidative stress seems to be common among patients with ME/CFS.

Oxidative stress is linked to cancer, heart disease, and many other diseases. Lipid peroxidation causes damage to cell membranes.

Not something you want to ignore.

 

[ChrisD]

I'm allergic to eggs, so that won't be happening, though I note that liver, where toxins are concentrated, is a good source folate.

And, I am responding to my labs which continuously show high lipid peroxides and depletion of all antioxidants, even with significant supplementation. This oxidative stress seems to be common among patients with ME/CFS.

Oxidative stress is linked to cancer, heart disease, and many other diseases. Lipid peroxidation causes damage to cell membranes.

Not something you want to ignore.

Do you know if you are allergic to whole eggs or just egg whites? as the yolks are very beneficial in any scenario. I think perhaps Oxidative stress increased when I tried Zero Carb, it would explain a lot of the issues I experienced. My other abstract theory is that Alistipes which are the prominent overgrowth in my Gut microbiome and typical CFS Biome, they feed on animal fats which could perhaps cause increased inflammation. But a 70-30 Meat-low fodmap veg diet seems to be best for me.

 

[ChrisD]

Testimonial to the Carnivore diet for 'Chronic Fatigue syndrome' http://mikhailapeterson.com/2018/04/18/i-had-been-getting-worse-for-the-past-6-years/

Some less specific stories on Zero carb Zen: https://zerocarbzen.com/tag/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/

The Carnivore Diet: A Panacea for Autoimmune & Chronic Illness?
https://healinggourmet.com/healthy-articles/carnivore-diet/

I am planning to try this again soon, but probably in a much more gradual way so that it is less of a shock to my body this time.