Carnivore Diet for ME?

[brenda]

Unlike with other diets such as the huge push for Plant-based, raw, vegan diets in films such as ''What the Health'' which demonise fats but impart that sugars are completely fine

I would like to see where you saw that ChrisD. I certainly have not seen it anywhere.

My foray into LCHF began when I read Dr Terry Wahl's book about her recovery from MS. I tried the keto stage but my thyroid could not take it so I added some carbs ie sweet potato but not grains. I did see some improvement in some autoimmunity but ran into problems later on. I blame that diet for my gall stones and severe gall bladder attacks, one of which I now know to have been acute pancreatitis. My pancreas must have sustained damage because I seem to have type 3c diabetes due to nightime hypos.

I also did not sleep too good, and suspect my microbiome suffered. I gained wieght and began to crave sugar.

I am now on the plant based whole food no salt oil or sugar diet, for 7 weeks now and it is going well. Sleep has began to be excellent - deep and satisfying - better than for years. My weight is down and my BP. I enjoy the diet more than HF. There is a whole pile of science behind this diet. There are quite a few ex-cfs sufferers in these communities.

You said that here is no-one to make profit from a meat based diet Chris but what about the farming industry?

 

[ChrisD]

I would like to see where you saw that ChrisD. I certainly have not seen it anywhere.

There are several documentaries on Netflix and other streaming services which condemn meat and dairy consumption and push Plant-based diets. It's not that I have anything against this as I think the move from a standard American/British diet to Plant based is pretty good nutrition wise, atleast for a short time.

It's certainly true that the farms will profit from a Meat-based diet but the unit cost and mark-up/profit margin on meat compared to sugar is incomparable. It's my own personal belief that the big push for plant-based is a vehicle for maintaining that sugar is not 'the enemy' and that fat is, therefore preserving demand for mass produced, processed rubbish.

I have heard that Men do better on a Ketogenic diet than women for some reason. I'm glad you have found some improvement on your new diet, it does seem that a subset of CFS patients do well on the cleanse/plant-based/Medical medium diet. I tried it and it didn't work for me, it was too hard to steer clear of Fodmaps, Oxalates, histamine, night shades etc. that were causing more energy-sapping and pain inducing inflammation.

 

[brenda]

There are several documentaries on Netflix and other streaming services which condemn meat and dairy consumption and push Plant-based diets. It's not that I have anything against this as I think the move from a standard American/British diet to Plant based is pretty good nutrition wise, atleast for a short time.

It's certainly true that the farms will profit from a Meat-based diet but the unit cost and mark-up/profit margin on meat compared to sugar is incomparable. It's my own personal belief that the big push for plant-based is a vehicle for maintaining that sugar is not 'the enemy' and that fat is, therefore preserving demand for mass produced, processed rubbish.

I have heard that Men do better on a Ketogenic diet than women for some reason. I'm glad you have found some improvement on your new diet, it does seem that a subset of CFS patients do well on the cleanse/plant-based/Medical medium diet. I tried it and it didn't work for me, it was too hard to steer clear of Fodmaps, Oxalates, histamine, night shades etc. that were causing more eneurgy-sapping and pain inducing inflammation.

I think you are getting confused with one person, Ray Peat, who has some unique ideas about boosting metabolism and advocates sugar but all of the plant based doctors in the media cut out sugar and any processed food even olive oil as it is not a whole food.

Quite a few people have had improvement on keto diets or any diet initially the cuts out highly processed food, but like me have run into problems later. It is not sustainable and even harmful. There are also no long term studies showing it is safe. The people who have had problems eating plant based have failed to supplement with b12 or omega 6 oils or have been imbalanced in some way.

Cutting out all of the micronutrients you find in fruit and vegetables will backfire.

I have noticed that some men do not look so great as long term vegans though most of the doctors say that some people such as the elderly will require a sma!l amount of animal protein, and that is why they prefer to say plant based and not vegan, plus there are many unhealthy ways to be vegan.

A lot of disinformation out there.

 

[scisolver]

I'm doing carnivore diet for ME/CFS. I learned about it from Sean Baker and also watching videos talking about the diet that humans are made for based on our digestive system.

I go to the World Carnivore Tribe facebook grup, zerocarb on reddit and look at the website zero carb zen.

I've been on it for over a month and still having problems digesting the food. I'm just eating beef and water. I'm getting diahrea still and a lot of people report that. I also had bloating belly.

I'm also much more fatigued than normal. People at zero carb zen said it took them up to 3 months to adapt with digestion and fatigue and they didn't have ME/CFS. I'm skeptical that it will work, but I guess I have to give it at least 3 months.

I did ketogenic diet 90%+ calories fat for 6 months and felt more fatigued than normal to the extreme. It was not carnivore though and had oils and fiber.

Dr. Sara Myhill the ME/CFS doctor says all of her patients must do the ketogenic paleo diet. It is sort of like carinvire but has some minimal plant fiber I think.

She also says if it doesn't work then the thyroid isn't working right. But, I'm thinking even if that is true it could be the neuroimmune disease is preventing the body from metabolizing the fat and it isn't really the thyroid that is the problem, or the disease is causing the thyroid problem, so by treating the thyroid you still aren't addressing the primary cause.

 

[Lolo]

@scisolver I have been doing carnivore for 10 weeks now and feel a bit better, better than I have all year. I am a member of zero carb health facebook group and have read many posts. I have repeatedly read that if you are having diarrhea it could be from too much fat. Each person has to work out how much fat and meat to eat. But it also could be because it's early days for you. I have also been really tired on this WOE but the last few days I have been feeling a bit better. I actually went out for an hour on Saturday night to listen to some live music at a small local festival and handled the noise and crowds ok.

A few other people on the facebook group has said that have improved with this WOE.

I really like the simplicity of this.

I hope it helps you.

 

[BadBadBear]

I am trying some days during the week carnivore, and some days doing the "potato hack" and have been surprised how well I feel eating nothing but potatoes. I feel decidedly worse on the carnivore days. I had started from LC straight into carnivore, and felt pretty yucky, therefore decided to alternate.

I get really ill when I try to keto. I think I may need the carbs to hold onto enough salt to function well. My electrolyte balance went out of whack almost immediately on carnivore.

 

[scisolver]

I am trying some days during the week carnivore, and some days doing the "potato hack" and have been surprised how well I feel eating nothing but potatoes. I feel decidedly worse on the carnivore days. I had started from LC straight into carnivore, and felt pretty yucky, therefore decided to alternate.

I get really ill when I try to keto. I think I may need the carbs to hold onto enough salt to function well. My electrolyte balance went out of whack almost immediately on carnivore.

I would recommend you do not eat potatoes at all with ME/CFS.

I have experimented with a potatoes on a starch based diet and eaten them every day as the only source of starch/carbohydrate for weeks at a day. If you have ME/CFS like I do then it is an autoimmune disease of the adrenergic receptors and muscarinic receptors.

Certain plants contain choline esterase inhibitors. These prevent the breakdown of acetylcholine. Potatoes are parcitularly high in these as are nightshades. Other plants have them too such as blueberries. This inhibitor will cause high levels of acetylcholine to build up and you will become increasingly stimulated, anxious and develop insomnia.

A person with ME/CFS will be particularly sensitive to these effects. You can learn more here: https://sites.google.com/site/annerwright/cholinesterase-inhibitors

 

[scisolver]

@scisolver I have been doing carnivore for 10 weeks now and feel a bit better, better than I have all year. I am a member of zero carb health facebook group and have read many posts. I have repeatedly read that if you are having diarrhea it could be from too much fat. Each person has to work out how much fat and meat to eat. But it also could be because it's early days for you. I have also been really tired on this WOE but the last few days I have been feeling a bit better. I actually went out for an hour on Saturday night to listen to some live music at a small local festival and handled the noise and crowds ok.

A few other people on the facebook group has said that have improved with this WOE.

I really like the simplicity of this.

I hope it helps you.

I have felt ups and downs on the carnivore diet. I mostly felt the energy boost when fasting during the day though. But, I do not believe I should do that and have tried multiple meals as well.

On the zero carb zen site many people said it took them 3 months to adapt to the diet and some people said they continued to get more energy around 6 months. So, the claims by Dr. Sara Myhill and others that it only takes a month at most seems to be wrong.

This may be particularly true if one has a disease of the digestive system. It may also be that there are certain conditions which prevent a person from ever adapting, creating a vicious circle where you can't heal because your body can't process the food you need to heal.

What to do if you are no better on the diet
http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Stone_Age_Diet_-_this_is_a_diet_which_we_all_should_follow

Pancreatic exocrine function
http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Pancreatic_exocrine_function

I just started taking pancreatic enzymes, bile and also have baetine HCL. That is just in case I get to the end of 3 months and am not adapted because my pancreas was not creating the enzymes needed.

Hypochlorhydria - lack of stomach acid - can cause lots of problems
http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Hypochlorhydria_-_lack_of_stomach_acid_-_can_cause_lots_of_problems

She also says that the enzyme supplements are likely not for life as somehow the body can heal once it gets the food presumably. This may be, but no way to say. It is even possible the ME/CFS condition was caused by an exocrine pancreatic disease as this is known to cause symptoms which are the same as ME/CFS.

I still haven't had my pancreatic exocrine function tested. The gastroenterologist is not interested in anything but testing for cancer. The general practitioner is overwhelmed with the number of organs I need tested. The endochrinologist I will see soon, but may only be able to test endocrine pancreatic function, not exocrine.

 

[BadBadBear]

I was a responder for potato RS when that was a thing, and felt good on it. I have never had autoimmune issues or any reason to think nightshades are an issue for me. So not sure if the autoimmune model really applies to me.

I feel more issues with meat/eggs causing insomnia, anger/anxiety, and stimulation. Any idea why that would be?

I am approaching it as first 2 meals per day of either potato hack or carnivore, last meal paleo type eating. 4 days per week on, 3 days per week off (so just regular moderate low carb paleo type eating). Not going to kill myself, and certainly will stop if I notice any issues.

 

[scisolver]

This is a guy who explains that humans are carnivores by looking at the digestive system. However, he does not tell people to just eat beef and water and has some fiber and other things I think.

I believe he got it from Barry Groves:

 

[scisolver]

I was a responder for potato RS when that was a thing, and felt good on it. I have never had autoimmune issues or any reason to think nightshades are an issue for me. So not sure if the autoimmune model really applies to me.

I feel more issues with meat/eggs causing insomnia, anger/anxiety, and stimulation. Any idea why that would be?

I am approaching it as first 2 meals per day of either potato hack or carnivore, last meal paleo type eating. 4 days per week on, 3 days per week off (so just regular moderate low carb paleo type eating). Not going to kill myself, and certainly will stop if I notice any issues.

I think I have experienced this anger as well. It would probably be related to the amino acids, tyrosine spiking, insulin, blood sugar, rapid change in blood sugar, or a form of rapid dehydration or similar reaction.

You can try eating three meals instead of two, which is what I'm going to try to do, or evening it out more. I can get very angry sometimes if I eat a meal at noon for some reason. If I only eat one meal a day at the end of the day I do not. If I only eat a meal at noon I do. And, if I eat a meal at noon and at the end of the day I do after the noon meal, but not the second meal at night. I think If I eat three meals a day I do not.

 

[Lolo]

I keep it real simple, I eat when I am hungry. I add salt. The hunger signals are different. If I feel nauseous I eat (just not a lot of fat), if I feel anything different I eat and then I feel better. And I accept that there is going to be an adaption period.

Given that I have had CFS since 1992 I accept that it's going to take some time for big improvements.

 

[ChrisD]

I feel more issues with meat/eggs causing insomnia, anger/anxiety, and stimulation. Any idea why that would be?
.

The issue with meat could be histamine-related and Egg white protein is supposedly inflammatory to an extent. Or a more far-fetched idea, I saw this article the other day on Tick-borne diseases causing red meat allergies https://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-people-developing-red-meat-allergy-from-tick-bites/

I'm not suggesting that it is Lyme disease but I found it interesting that such an infection could trigger an allergy to even meat, maybe other infections are capable of this?

@scisolver @Lolo I may try Carnivore again soon but the first time round the adaptation period was so awful that it returned me to almost 0% health and reversed the 10-20% improvement that I had made through Paleo and Keto, so it was a bit scary. I think the next time round I will try Carnivore Keto with Meat, Fish, Eggs, Cheese and Yogurt, then beyond that add in nuts, olives etc. and see if they are okay. I think last time it was too much of a shock to my body to go from standard balanced Ketogenic to just meat, maybe my microbiome couldn't handle it? I think in general us ME patients are very sensitive to change of any kind so everything needs to be gradual.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@jpcv @Folk do you have any updates?

 

[scisolver]

I was a responder for potato RS when that was a thing, and felt good on it. I have never had autoimmune issues or any reason to think nightshades are an issue for me. So not sure if the autoimmune model really applies to me.

I feel more issues with meat/eggs causing insomnia, anger/anxiety, and stimulation. Any idea why that would be?

I am approaching it as first 2 meals per day of either potato hack or carnivore, last meal paleo type eating. 4 days per week on, 3 days per week off (so just regular moderate low carb paleo type eating). Not going to kill myself, and certainly will stop if I notice any issues.

After just eating a pound of beef today for lunch I am feeling just about the most extreme and intense anger I have felt in a long time. I think I'm also very thirsty too. It is not salt. There is no added salt. What is going on? I am so angry! I was extremely foggy and then extremely drowsy and then extremely fatigued and now just angry and fatigued.

It is not the food either because when I was just eating rice the same thing would happen. It started happening when I would eat any large meals around noon if it was the first meal of the day.

I am so pissed that I have to put up with this disease and I have to put up with a stupid job and I'm getting no financial aid. I might apply for that soon. I'm told however that the insurance company plan will only pay for two years and then they will try to kick you off of it pretty hard, so I may need to get really good evidence, but that is hard. I might need to start asking these doctors if they will support my disability claim.

 

[scisolver]

I may be super thirsty and angry due to taking the betaine HCL. I may remember this from before, though I know this happened before I took it. I'm going to just take the pancreatic support and drop the betaine hcl.
https://www.paleohacks.com/hcl/betaine-hydrochloride-hcl-causing-side-effects-12852

 

[brenda]

This is really interesting because since l went plant based two months back, from low carb high fat l am feeling happier and my depression has lifted. Also sleeping well, bp down more energy and weight loss.

 

[scisolver]

This is really interesting because since l went plant based two months back, from low carb high fat l am feeling happier and my depression has lifted. Also sleeping well, bp down more energy and weight loss.

Well the carbohydrates may be helping you produce seretonin.

I would get very angry when I was eating very little meat and just rice meals. I was low protein, super low fat and high starch based diet before this.

But, I know the last time I tried betaine hcl I think I got the same side effects. I'm getting a lot of muscle twitching and really thirsty. That link talks about the body buffering or something.

I'm going to stick with the pancreatic support and drop the betaine hcl and see if that helps. There is a certain connection to making me super thirsty and angry. I know forms of dehydration cause anger and I know those super large starch meals caused me super thirst and anger. I think I was adding salt too at least early on.

I'm eating zero salt now, but I think this betaine hcl is having the same effect. The best way to get rid of the anger is drink a lot of water and keep drinking. Part of the thirst can be masked too with this condition.

One way to test if you are thirsty with ME/CFS and the thirst is an unusual form that is being masked is to press on certain muscles that hurt in the upper shoulders, neck or a few other body parts. If you hold that and feel an intense thirst then you are thirsty. You may not necessarily be dehdrated because the system is messed up, but you need water to perform some purpose, or are getting a thirst signal due to some malfunction and should probably drink. It won't continue forever, but this will let you top it off if you are under on water.

I know this from 10+ years of experience in ME and just discovering this in the last few years by paying very close attention to the sensation of thirst. It may not be what you think it feels like. Press on the muscles. Also remember that low blood volume and central diabetes insip or some form of diabetes insip is related to the pathology of ME, so drinking more water is the symptom.

 

[ljimbo423]

I may be super thirsty and angry due to taking the betaine HCL. I may remember this from before, though I know this happened before I took it. I'm going to just take the pancreatic support and drop the betaine hcl.
https://www.paleohacks.com/hcl/betaine-hydrochloride-hcl-causing-side-effects-12852

The betaine HCL could be causing your anger. It boosts methylation. When I first took betaine, in the form of TMG, it caused massive anxiety and made me extremely hyper!

Methylation increases neurotransmitters like epinephrine, dopamine etc. Which could easily make somebody feel angry and aggressive.

Biologically, betaine is involved in methylation reactions and detoxification of homocysteine.

LINK

Jim

 

[Gondwanaland]

I'm going to stick with the pancreatic support and drop the betaine hcl and see if that helps.

Protease causes anger, don't ask me why though.