Can anyone help me make sense of why I react to Glutathione the way that I do?

[HurrySaveMe]

Whenever I take Liposomal Glutathione, I initially feel a lot better for a short while. My brain fog, derealization and cognition gets better, it feels like my brain wakes up again. But afterwards I crash, and feel even worse. Why does this happen to me?

I've been able to find out through tests that I have B2 deficiency which might be causing Paradoxical B12 deficiency, and I have high B6.

Anyone with good knowledge on how the methylation cycle works, can you help me make sense of this?

 

[Wishful]

There's no guarantee that it's related to methylation. Given how complex our bodies--and microbiomes--are, it's possible that your response is some complex Rube Goldberg series starting from some non-methylation use of glutathione. Someone might offer a theoretical explanation involving methylation, and even if it sounds plausible, it might not be correct. If that theory offers an experiment to test it, and it works, then it's likely--but not guaranteed--that the theory is correct.

 

[heapsreal]

Sorry to jump in on this thread, but does anyone have a good well priced source for injectable glutathione?

Cheers

 

[LINE]

Glutathione is a potent detoxifier especially when you have been sick. I suffered when starting the liposomal formula as well as my friend who started it at the same time. He thought there was something wrong with the formulation and called the manufacturer. They suggested cutting down the dosage to just 8 drops under the tongue. This resolved the problem. The issue was there were too many toxins liberated which the body had to handle (some of these were likely heavy metals such as mercury).

I get wonderful results with some binders such as Zeolite spray (micronized) and the chlorella which is certified 'clean'. These bind the toxins and resolve a lot of problems.

 

[godlovesatrier]

@heapsreal haven't found one yet. Suppositories cost a small fortune.

Sometimes you take something and you react great and then crash later. I'd wager that's prob your body being in a worse state than it should be. As I no longer react that way and maybe that means something as out of all my symptoms 65% have improved or disappeared. However my core ME symptoms remain and are just improved.

My point is that it's not uncommon to get a surge of energy and then crash. Taking Bacillus Subtilis did this for me and no doubt there have been many others. Prebiotics had a similar effect but less dramatic (not a proper crash).

If you take it for a few months you may see a dramatic change in outcome.

When i started NAC I had to sleep for 2 hours or more, same with liposomal glutathione. B12? I'd take it and be high as a kite like you and then crash the day after. So my b12 story is similar to your reaction. After 6 months of b12? Almost every day. It stopped happening. In fact I no longer get any benefit from b12, I can take it maybe once a month now or even less. Some might say that's a sign of recovery, but I am sceptical.

So perseverance should pay off, as long as it isn';t doing you any harm. You could also reduce the dose substantially, take it only in the AM for your boost and then as you gradually build tolerance, up the dose to the recommend RDA.

 

[HurrySaveMe]

Glutathione is a potent detoxifier especially when you have been sick. I suffered when starting the liposomal formula as well as my friend who started it at the same time. He thought there was something wrong with the formulation and called the manufacturer. They suggested cutting down the dosage to just 8 drops under the tongue. This resolved the problem. The issue was there were too many toxins liberated which the body had to handle (some of these were likely heavy metals such as mercury).

I get wonderful results with some binders such as Zeolite spray (micronized) and the chlorella which is certified 'clean'. These bind the toxins and resolve a lot of problems.

The liposomal glutathione I took was a liquid I was supposed to drink out of a small cup, 15 ml was the serving dose which gave 500 mg of l-glutathione. Sometimes I went up to 20 ml. It seems like I overdid it, I might try again starting with a lower dose.

Speaking of Zeolite I actually recently bought a powder blend of Zeolite and Bentonite Clay, as these are supposed to get toxins like heavy metals (mercury) out of your body. I've thought maybe a reason why I reacted the way I did to L-Glutathione was because it was moving heavy metals around but not getting it out properly due to no binders. So my current plan is so take the Zeolite and Bentonite blend and some probiotics such as S. Boulardii as these are supposed to bind to toxins very well, and not chelate them around like L-Glutathione (from what I understand). As well as address my B2 deficiency with a specific B-complex that doesn't have B6 in it. I'll do this for a while and then start low and slow with the L-Glutathione again, maybe I'll have better success with it this way.

 

[godlovesatrier]

I also forgot to say, be careful with lip glutathione. It often has phosphatidylcholine similar in it. While ME patients are very low in these and it can make you feel great, that doesn't last. It's not the glutathione that makes you feel "high" and then you crash, it's the phosphatidylcholine. It took me ages to figure this out the first time:

While not everyone might get high taking that - I certainly did! And I've tried all three brands. The only one I now take is the last one, which is a sort of thick squidgy orange goo. I get the feeling that has lower phosphatidylecholine than the others as they are liquid suspension.

 

[HurrySaveMe]

I also forgot to say, be careful with lip glutathione. It often has phosphatidylcholine similar in it. While ME patients are very low in these and it can make you feel great, that doesn't last. It's not the glutathione that makes you feel "high" and then you crash, it's the phosphatidylcholine. It took me ages to figure this out the first time:

View attachment 49411

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While not everyone might get high taking that - I certainly did! And I've tried all three brands. The only one I now take is the last one, which is a sort of thick squidgy orange goo. I get the feeling that has lower phosphatidylecholine than the others as they are liquid suspension.

Just checked the L-glutathione I took, and it has 425 mg of phosphatidylcholine...

If this is what caused my temporary improvement and crash, is there a way to reverse this? Because my baseline has lowered ever since I last took the L-glutathione 2 months ago. Does this mean we should avoid all choline supplements? The B-complex I bought recently has Choline Bitartrate in it.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Yep I'm absolutely convinced you've crashed from the phos. You will recover trust me it just takes time with these ME crashes. I've got mine down to days but they used to be weeks or months.

I wouldn't say avoid all choline supplements, all ME patients are very low in actylecholine and phosphydylecholine, your body is prob hyper reactive to it because you don't have a lot of it basically. Bit like giving a starving person some food when they haven't eaten for a year or two. So you just need to dramatically lower the dose. As for the glutathione, the good products often require a lipid to make them bioavailable so very hard getting away from this. Almost all the good products are lipid based.

I wouldn't take a b-complex with choline - just because you don't want extra interactions. If you buy thorne b complex you'll be fine. Alternatively you can buy transdermal b12 oil from b12oils.com which has superior bioavailability.

As for getting glutathione, alternatives would be intranasal glutathione on prescription (america only) via a doctor. Or finding a supp like mine where you might be able to tolerate the reaction without crashing.

You will acclimatise to the choline by the way, it just takes a long time, could take 6 months to a year. It took me 6 months. But if the crash is severe you need to dramatically lower the dose.

I might suggest you buy choline bitritrate powder and take 50mg in the AM and very gradually work up to 250mg twice a day. That's what I originally did.

 

[LINE]

Unlike the others, my body responds well to phosphatidylcholine. As others have mentioned, biochemistry is an individual issue. In fact, it has helped me.

 

[HurrySaveMe]

I wouldn't take a b-complex with choline - just because you don't want extra interactions. If you buy thorne b complex you'll be fine. Alternatively you can buy transdermal b12 oil from b12oils.com which has superior bioavailability.

I bought this specific B-complex because it doesn't have B6 in it:

I'm high in B6 and it makes my neuropathy flare up, I'd have to take a B-complex with a lower dose of B6 if I'm going to take one. Also this B-complex only has 50 mg of Choline Bitartrate, shouldn't that be a safe starting dose?

 

[HurrySaveMe]

Yep I'm absolutely convinced you've crashed from the phos. You will recover trust me it just takes time with these ME crashes. I've got mine down to days but they used to be weeks or months.

Actually, I just checked the ingredients of the Liposomal Glutathione I took last year which gave me the same experience, and it does not have phosphydylecholine listed: https://www.iherb.com/pr/aurora-nut...-c-organic-fruit-750-mg-16-fl-oz-480-ml/99988

Now I'm not sure what to think, I think methylation/toxins and deficiencies in B vitamins might still be playing a role here to why I react to L-Glutathione the way that I do.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hey,

Your b complex looks ok btw. That choline dose is fine

As for the glutathione product the other one. Yes that one does look ok really. Can't see anything untoward with it. Possible you're very low in glutathione of course and again you're having the same reaction but just with that in mind. We're all so different.

 

[LINE]

Actually, I just checked the ingredients of the Liposomal Glutathione I took last year which gave me the same experience, and it does not have phosphydylecholine listed: https://www.iherb.com/pr/aurora-nut...-c-organic-fruit-750-mg-16-fl-oz-480-ml/99988

Now I'm not sure what to think, I think methylation/toxins and deficiencies in B vitamins might still be playing a role here to why I react to L-Glutathione the way that I do.

Just keep tweaking. Not to sound preachy but keep developing theories and test those theories to see if they are true, false or neutral. You will get your answers.

Backing the dose down and using binders will likely give you some results, but again, this may not be the answer.

 

[Canyonk8]

Yep I'm absolutely convinced you've crashed from the phos. You will recover trust me it just takes time with these ME crashes. I've got mine down to days but they used to be weeks or months.

I wouldn't say avoid all choline supplements, all ME patients are very low in actylecholine and phosphydylecholine, your body is prob hyper reactive to it because you don't have a lot of it basically. Bit like giving a starving person some food when they haven't eaten for a year or two. So you just need to dramatically lower the dose. As for the glutathione, the good products often require a lipid to make them bioavailable so very hard getting away from this. Almost all the good products are lipid based.

I wouldn't take a b-complex with choline - just because you don't want extra interactions. If you buy thorne b complex you'll be fine. Alternatively you can buy transdermal b12 oil from b12oils.com which has superior bioavailability.

As for getting glutathione, alternatives would be intranasal glutathione on prescription (america only) via a doctor. Or finding a supp like mine where you might be able to tolerate the reaction without crashing.

You will acclimatise to the choline by the way, it just takes a long time, could take 6 months to a year. It took me 6 months. But if the crash is severe you need to dramatically lower the dose.

I might suggest you buy choline bitritrate powder and take 50mg in the AM and very gradually work up to 250mg twice a day. That's what I originally did.

@godlovesatrier can you elaborate on the choline situation? if we need choline should we eat eggs? do we need to raise choline levels slowly? and how does choline makes us crash if we need it? I went down a choline rabbit hole this week - I was feeling ok and I ate some yogurt with lavender in it and then immediately crashed - turns out lavender is an anticholinergic... so now I'm wondering if choline is a real problem for me but also afraid to try anything!! thanks!

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hello,

It's not quite this simple ME patients have lots of things they are low in, sometimes taking the thing can be helpful but other times it's not that simple.

However if you were to take choline you'd see an increase in phosphydylecholine and actylecholine - the two we are low in. But you have to take low doses to get theraputic levels and as we discussed in the thread you can crash from that.

However we are going off topic a bit to be honest, I am sure there is a thread about choline already on the forum which has all the details.

In this case the author of the thread had a crash when taking glutathione, but as it turned out it was genuinely due to the glutathione, not choline. So in this case the glutathione must have caused the crash.

NAC, glutathione and choline can all causes a crash, but so can carnitine, high dose selenium and others. We're hyper sensitive to almost everything. I am currently in a crash for example where all my symptoms have flared due to taking bacillus subtilis. So really crashes can happen anytime.

As for the anti cholonergic, I wouldn't worry too much about lavender, but if you took say nytol I would worry as that has a much stronger effect and that's not good for your brain. Probably wouldn't matter to a healthy person but we aren't healthy

 

[Canyonk8]

Hello,

It's not quite this simple ME patients have lots of things they are low in, sometimes taking the thing can be helpful but other times it's not that simple.

However if you were to take choline you'd see an increase in phosphydylecholine and actylecholine - the two we are low in. But you have to take low doses to get theraputic levels and as we discussed in the thread you can crash from that.

However we are going off topic a bit to be honest, I am sure there is a thread about choline already on the forum which has all the details.

In this case the author of the thread had a crash when taking glutathione, but as it turned out it was genuinely due to the glutathione, not choline. So in this case the glutathione must have caused the crash.

NAC, glutathione and choline can all causes a crash, but so can carnitine, high dose selenium and others. We're hyper sensitive to almost everything. I am currently in a crash for example where all my symptoms have flared due to taking bacillus subtilis. So really crashes can happen anytime.

As for the anti cholonergic, I wouldn't worry too much about lavender, but if you took say nytol I would worry as that has a much stronger effect and that's not good for your brain. Probably wouldn't matter to a healthy person but we aren't healthy

wow. so difficult. thanks. do you eat eggs? just trying to figure out if I should eat eggs or stay away. I used to eat 3 eggs a day and I was doing much better...but everything gives me a paradoxical effect now - I crashed from Lions Mane (and read that lions mane depletes choline) and Ashwaganda. I used to take the liposomal glutathione and vitamin c from liv on labs - now that ruins me. just about everything ruins me.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

So perseverance should pay off,

I seem to have no perseverance capabilities...as soon as the Feeling REALLY LOUSY takes over after any efforts to detox, I quit whatever it is. And I"d view it as detox problem or HERX issue.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Hello,

I eat eggs rarely. You could also eat almonds they are high in choline.

I'm having that issue right now @Rufous McKinney on the staphylococcus thread. The disorientarion is brutal my symptoms have flared very badly.