Bhupesh Prusty: "we are on a perfect path for identifying potential transferable factors in ME/CFS blood that can cause mito dysfunction..." GoFundMe

perrier

Senior Member
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1,254
I had a personal conversation with Nsviaux and he indicated that it would be necessary to remove/repair all of the cell dangers and only then, if the body didn't kick.into normal gear, then one might need suramin.
Dear Learner, the implication of Dr Naviaux's statement are mind boggling and truly daunting. Folks with this illness are generally very fragile, reactive, and with very delicate GI guts; so imagine bombarding them with antibiotics for lyme(is the testing really reliable?), and then detox regimes, and then other mould regimes, and then moving them out into the desert to escape city polluted air and wifi frequencies. From reading his latest article, found on his site, it is clear he sees these chronic illnesses to be a result of modern living: here is a summary from his website:
  • "Cell Danger Response Biology—The new science that connects environmental health with mitochondria and the rising tide of chronic illness. Mitochondrion 2020;51:40-45. (PDF).
    This paper helps connect the health of the environment to human health through mitochondria and the cell danger response (CDR). Mitochondria act as sensors of environment chemicals and microbial infections. When exposed to these environmental threats, the CDR is activated in an attempt to shield the cells from further injury and to begin healing. When the CDR is persistently or repeatedly activated healing is impaired and chronic illness results."
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Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
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13,489
The new science that connects environmental health with mitochondria and the rising tide of chronic illness.

Wow. I'm personally convinced that there is a strong environmental toxin connection with our illness. its what they saw up there at Tahoe, and packed up their suitcases and fled the area.

Its our Better Living Thru Chemistry and EMF is killing ourselves, killing off first the most sensitive- Us, with some genetic predispositions for things like: not getting the toxins out, not beating up the microbe well.

And we can't stop drenching ourselves in the chemicals. So the body is assaulted.
 

wigglethemouse

Senior Member
Messages
776
So, can anyone help me understand why Prusty is looking for the "transferable factor", when we know that it is nucleotides (mainly ATP) given off by cells in CDR what signal other cells into entering into the CDR state?

In one of the autistic murine model studies, Naviaux et al used downregulation of purinergic receptors as a signal for hyperpurinergia, and they found decreased expression of purinergic receptors in autistic mice, and suramin reverted this:

Dr. Prusty is collaborating with Dr Naviaux both on the paper published in 2020 and on a current project.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
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6,311
Location
Pacific Northwest
Dear Learner, the implication of Dr Naviaux's statement are mind boggling and truly daunting. Folks with this illness are generally very fragile, reactive, and with very delicate GI guts; so imagine bombarding them with antibiotics for lyme(is the testing really reliable?), and then detox regimes, and then other mould regimes, and then moving them out into the desert to escape city polluted air and wifi frequencies. From reading his latest article, found on his site, it is clear he sees these chronic illnesses to be a result of modern living: here is a summary from his website:
  • "Cell Danger Response Biology—The new science that connects environmental health with mitochondria and the rising tide of chronic illness. Mitochondrion 2020;51:40-45. (PDF).
    This paper helps connect the health of the environment to human health through mitochondria and the cell danger response (CDR). Mitochondria act as sensors of environment chemicals and microbial infections. When exposed to these environmental threats, the CDR is activated in an attempt to shield the cells from further injury and to begin healing. When the CDR is persistently or repeatedly activated healing is impaired and chronic illness results."
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Agreed. Though many of us are more susceptible due to our genetics.... Not easy, I'm afraid...
 

serg1942

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Spain
Thank you @Learner1. Yes, that makes total sense... It's really great that you talked to Naviaux! Do you know what "cell dangers" was he thinking about?
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
Dear raghav,
for me the cause of my ME/CFS has always been gastrointestinal, due to D-Lactic acidosis without short bowel syndrome that took 18 years to diagnose. I most definitely had ME/CFS symptoms and was even diagnosed with Fibromyalgia due to pain.

I have believed for some years that different forms of Organic Acids produced in the Gut may be that universal factor, because D-Lactic acidosis can cause both Mitochondrial and Autonomic dysfunction and I have been diagnosed with both of these and my own belief is that this is caused for at least a Subset of ME.

My other belief is that this is an environmental issue caused through agents such as Fluoride, Antibiotics and Multiple Chemicals, that we have created that pass through the Gut causing dysbiosis, but it is obviously far more complex, because I did have a number of other possible causative factors including Glandular Fever prior to falling ill.

Because so many with ME/CFS have Gut problems including SIBO would it not be possible to verify this through Growing Duodenal Aspirates, Fecal Assay or even Urine Assay for Organic Acids. Would common symptoms not leave traces in Urine.

It would be good to have some mass testing using a simple test to identify those with this condition and find out why they have developed Bacterial Overgrowth and whether it is a primary or secondary cause of symptoms.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,372
Dear raghav,
for me the cause of my ME/CFS has always been gastrointestinal, due to D-Lactic acidosis without short bowel syndrome that took 18 years to diagnose. I most definitely had ME/CFS symptoms and was even diagnosed with Fibromyalgia due to pain.

Gut problems can be a secondary cause. Say, for example, that EBV or some other virus triggers autoimmunity that involves developing autoantibodies against various receptors of the ANS. As a consequence, the regulation of gut peristalsis and other ANS controlled gut activity may for example slow down. As a consequence of that in turn, one would likely develop issues like SIBO from content not moving in the gut as normally. Most likely this alone could have a significant impact on the gut microbiome composition.

I think many of us may have SIBO, D-lactic acidosis or other pathogenic growth of gut bacteria without the cause being those bacteria, even though they may contribute to symptoms. I have heard anecdotal evidence of people suffering from gut issues improving after rifaximin or FMT, but very often the problem returns back later once the treatment is stopped. If this is the case, the gut problems cannot be the cause of ME/CFS, they must follow from another source.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
The Gut Virome; missing link between Gut Bacteria and host immunity;


I am interested in what is common to ME/CFS, Long-Covid, and even HIV/Aids;

All three are related to Viral/Bacterial changes affecting the Gut leading to abnormal Microbiome and overlapping Gastrointestinal symptoms due to the necessity of the Virus to proliferate using two modes within Gut Bacteria that can advantaged host Bacteria through Phage activity; at the expense of the Symbiotic Microbiome. ME/CFS/Long-Covid may have a great deal in common with HIV and changes to Gastrointestinal Bacteria as a primary rather than secondary cause;

Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) is also common among patients with HIV-associated autonomic neuropathies (HIV-AN) and may be associated with increased bacterial translocation and elevated plasma inflammatory biomarkers.16 May 2019 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31098925

The relationship between HIV-1-associated mucosal pathogenesis and the microbiome is likely a two-way street with changes in mucosa leading to dysbiosis and with dysbiosis subsequently playing a critical role in sustaining the disruption in intestinal homeostasis and further contributing to HIV-1 associated immune ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5101180 (The Gut Microbiome and HIV-1 Pathogenesis: A Two Way Street).


The gut microbiome in human immunodeficiency virus infection
Gili Zilberman-Schapira, Niv Zmora, [...], and Eran Elinav

Additional article information

Abstract
HIV/AIDS causes severe dysfunction of the immune system through CD4+ T cell depletion, leading to dysregulation of both the adaptive and innate immune arms. A primary target for viral infection is the gastrointestinal tract, which is a reservoir of CD4+ T cells. In addition to being a major immune hub, the human gastrointestinal tract harbors trillions of commensal microorganisms, the microbiota, which have recently been shown to play critical roles in health. Alterations in the composition and function of microbiota have been implicated in a variety of ‘multi-factorial’ disorders, including infectious, autoimmune, metabolic, and neoplastic disorders. It is widely accepted that, in addition to its direct role in altering the gastrointestinal CD4+ T cell compartment, HIV infection is characterized by gut microbiota compositional and functional changes. Herein, we review such alterations and discuss their potential local and systemic effects on the HIV-positive host, as well as potential roles of novel microbiota-targeting treatments in modulating HIV progression and associated adverse systemic manifestations.
Keywords: Microbiota, Dysbiosis, Gastrointestinal tract, AIDS, HIV, Anti-retroviral therapy, CD4+ T cells


''Gastrointestinal and hepatobiliary disorders are among the most frequent complaints in patients with HIV disease. Advances in antiretroviral therapy are changing the nature of HIV disease and affecting many of the gastrointestinal manifestations. Before combination antiretroviral therapy, the best estimates suggested that 50 to 93% of all patients with HIV disease had marked GI symptoms during the course of their illness.(1,2) Recent clinicalexperience suggests that effective anti-HIV therapy and chemoprophylaxis for Pneumocystis carinii (PCP), Mycobacterium avium (MAC), and cytomegalovirus(CMV) may delay/prevent the occurrence of gastrointestinal opportunistic infections.''

The ME Association shows a history of ME outbreaks associated with Viral infections; but the relationship of Viral Phages and infections within the Microbiome has barely been studied, understood or taken into consideration. There are more Viral Phages in the Gut than Bacteria, some that take part in regulating the Microbiome, but it is likely to be vastly more complex than this; because even less of the Virome has been mapped than the Microbiome; and the complex relationships with the immune system, policing, signalling between Bacteria and immune system, control, balance within the Microbiome and destroying unwanted bacteria within this symbiosis of embedded Phage etc. has barely been understood.

Some Phages are necessary to the Microbiome and have existed as long as bacteria, both evolving from the first cellular life while bacteria have become more complex, Virus have become simpler, but both continue to interact especially in the Microbiome that has evolved over millions of years and I believe that the misunderstandings of Science are contributing to devolving these fragile ecosystems (devolving both complex internal and external ecosystems) that are leading to ill health; and ME may have been one of the first but overlooked clues.


The gut virome: the ‘missing link’ between gut bacteria and host immunity?
Indrani Mukhopadhya, Jonathan P. Segal, [...], and Georgina L. Hold

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6435874/

General Description;
''Eukaryotic viruses have an important impact on human health, ranging from mild, self-limited acute or chronic infections to those with serious or fatal consequences. Prokaryotic viruses can also influence human health by affecting the structure and function of bacterial communities that make up the human microbiome.


DNA and RNA viruses that collectively make up the intestinal virome outnumber bacterial cells by as much as 10:1, and include eukaryotic viruses which infect eukaryotic cells, endogenous retroviruses, bacterial viruses (i.e. bacteriophages) and archaeal viruses that infect archaea.

These virus-driven phenotypic changes can be beneficial to the host or increase the risk of disease.6
Currently, it is estimated that less than 1% of the virome has been sequenced, leaving the bulk of the virome yet to be characterized.8 ''

Hunter P. The secret garden’s gardeners: research increasingly appreciates the crucial role of gut viruses for human health and disease. EMBO Rep 2013; 14: 683–685. [PMC free article][PubMed] [Google Scholar]

Sequencing of eukaryotic viral communities in faecal samples from children has identified Picobirnaviridae, Adenoviridae, Anelloviridae and Astroviridae family members, and species such as bocaviruses, enteroviruses, rotaviruses and sapoviruses.12 In addition, disease-associated viruses such as herpesviruses, polyomaviruses, anelloviruses, adenoviruses, papillomaviruses, polyomaviruses, hepatitis B virus, hepatitis C virus and human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) are also present in the intestinal viromes of some individuals, indicating that the gastrointestinal (GI) tract contains viruses capable of infecting host cells. As the majority of humans remain asymptomatic it has been proposed that these pathogenic viruses (pathobionts) have become part of the metagenome of normal individuals, with the majority rarely causing disease and remaining dormant within the host.

I also had Glandular Fever at the point that my illness started; although there are a host of other causes of Bacterial Overgrowth including other underlying conditions such as Diabetes; I also had a lot of contact with Pesticides and dis-regulation of the microbiome may be multi factorial. But the above article indicates that Bacteria can be advantaged by some Phages that allow them to proliferate by destroying other Bacteria that are not protected by Phages thus altering the balance of the Microbiome (this on top of the huge amount of drugs and chemicals including Antibiotics that we take for granted, pass through and threaten the Microbiome; it is a wonder that more humans do not develop ME/CFS).

My theory relates to the drive or necessity of the virus to reproduce within Gut Bacteria, where the immune system may eventually deal with the Virus itself that has proliferated through the Lysing form of reproduction, but in Lysogenic cycle may have an advantage, where the drive of the Virus to reproduce through cloning or hijacking Bacteria may go undetected by the immune system if the Bacterial Hosts within the Gut are naturally found within this environment; that then go into overgrowth due to Viral drive or advantaged latency causing fluctuating abnormal organic acid production and symptoms of Bacterial Overgrowth which then act not as Symbiosis, but as a hidden infection (hidden because only the Organic Metabolites enter the bloodstream and spinal fluid to cause Flu like and Neurological symptoms; whereas no temperature is generated as in a normal infection, so that Doctors are unable to understand).


I had also been taking high doses of Non-Steroidals that inhibit COX 1&2 Prostaglandins and immune response for a number of years prior to the onset of illness and possibly during the period of E.B. infection. Non-Steroidal's may benefit those with overactive response to a Virus, but may be detrimental to those who have only mild symptoms by reducing immune response.

This is an ongoing discussion that can only advantage us as a species through so many minds working together to solve these complex issues; but it may be many decades before the Microbiome/Virome is fully understood and we only have primative tools such as Antibiotics and Probiotics that could possibly make things worse; I still believe that FMT can shortcut decades of research by providing balanced microbiome and possibly even endow beneficial Phages.


I am looking forward to a time when a Superdonor's Microbiome can be grown to provide the best Probiotics, which would mean that even with underlying issues, you could replace or replenish your microbiome on a regular basis to live a healthier life.
 
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Yuno

Senior Member
Messages
118
Prust mentions applying for a BMBF grant. That is the German national government's department of education and research.

https://www.bmbf.de/en/research-funding-1411.html

So it will have deep pockets but probably not be fast.
It doesn’t have deep pockets I’m afraid. I’d have to check the source again, but quite sure it was something around 750.000 in total for all applications....
 
Messages
99
It doesn’t have deep pockets I’m afraid. I’d have to check the source again, but quite sure it was something around 750.000 in total for all applications....

Is that actually true?

One thing that bothers me about Prustys finding about the C1q Antibodies beeing a „factor“ in the serum. Wouldn’t plasmapheresis work in that case?
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
YES. I was literally gasping for air...taking bit deep gulps...yet your starving for it.

So I'm ordering a meter....not breathing is - scary.

I also had the same symptoms of air hunger while breathing normally.

I was literally suffocating during the worst episodes. This suffocation is literally invisible to Doctors because it is the build up of Co2 in acidosis that is the real problem, then secondary failure of Pyruvate Metabolism resulting in Mitochondrial dysfunction increasing Oxidative stress. The SpO2 monitors were never available in the early years when I would Hyperventilate in front of Doctors who were not trained to recognize this form of acidosis, which was unthinkable and was passed of as Somatization. Even after a Seizure in Hospital this was still put down to Somatization. There were at least 4 requests for me to have Blood Gasses during an episode, but never performed when I attended Hospital. Fortunately for me the episodes did not kill me and were self limiting, even though they repeated again and again and could last for long periods; and this has had a real effect on my mental health, because the systemic symptoms were disturbing, but just dismissed.

Mitochondrial fragmentation can be due to oxidative stress; Organic acids such as D-Lactate can have a direct effect on mitochondrial dysfunction and fragmentation. I was diagnosed with Mitochondrial Dysfunction many years before D-Lactic acidosis.

D-Lactate altered mitochondrial energy production in rat brain ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC3292964


by B Ling · ‎2012 · ‎Cited by 52 · ‎Related articles
1 Feb 2012 — Interestingly, the clinical symptoms due to high levels of D-lactate (D-lactic acidosis) are similar to inherited or acquired abnormalities of pyruvate metabolism [11]. Therefore, D-lactate may directly or indirectly interfere pyruvate metabolism pathways, which are essential for mitochondrial energy production [12].
Introduction · ‎Materials and methods · ‎Results · ‎Discussion

FEBS J2011 Apr;278(6):941-54.
doi: 10.1111/j.1742-4658.2011.08010.x. Epub 2011 Feb 3.
Mitochondrial oxidative stress causes mitochondrial fragmentation via differential modulation of mitochondrial fission-fusion proteins
Shengnan Wu 1, Feifan Zhou, Zhenzhen Zhang, Da Xing

''We conclude that mitochondrial oxidative stress mediated through Drp1 and Mfn2 causes an imbalance in mitochondrial fission-fusion, resulting in mitochondrial fragmentation, which contributes to mitochondrial and cell dysfunction. ''

We are very fortunate to have the help from Prusty's research. The more signatures that we can find to demonstrate these problems the better.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,489
Fortunately for me the episodes did not kill me and were self limiting, even though they repeated again and again and could last for long periods; and this has had a real effect on my mental health, because the systemic symptoms were disturbing, but just dismissed.

oh gosh I feel your pain... and thats sure what it feels like here. I was only in the ER once and they helped very little to none. I now see it seems like some extra oxygen would really help...maybe.
 

Avenger

Senior Member
Messages
323
oh gosh I feel your pain... and thats sure what it feels like here. I was only in the ER once and they helped very little to none. I now see it seems like some extra oxygen would really help...maybe.


ME/CFS and Covid-19 long haul probably due to Viral changes within the Microbiome (Virus can enhance some species of Bacteria and advantage them to kill other species) Virus need to find host Bacteria or die and the Gut is a main target;

Hi Rufous McKinney,
I thought that you might all like this report sent to me by Samer B on Lassesens's site, he also believes that ME/CFS and Covid-19 are caused by Viral changes to Gut bacteria;

New post on CFS Remission
webclip.png


Long Haul Covid – Welcome to the ME/CFS world!
by lassesen
Long haul COVID is sometime referred to as Post-Virus Syndrome. I prefer the more general, Post-Infection Syndrome. Most people with a CFS/ME diagnosis fall under that classification and causation.
Forget about Disability etc
A few people may get it, those with positive test results for something wrong, for example a SPECT scan of the brain. In general, long haul covid show no atypical results from standard medical tests. This has been the situation for ME/CFS for decades. Some people may get it granted for up to one year... and then will get turned down on renewal.
How will the insurance company respond?
From ME/CFS experience, it will be suggested that it is either psychosomatic, or work-phobic , or someone using it as an excuse not to work, or psychologically crippled from COVID stress. There is nothing wrong with the patient according to medical tests. Hence, it is psychological or attitude. Benefit denied.
Probable Cause ... microbiome dysfunction
Microbiome dysfunction, even when shown, would be viewed as an experimental or research diagnosis and thus, not applicable for disability. This gets much worst because almost no physician knows now to effectively deal with a microbiome dysfunction apart from a Fecal Matter Transplant (which may require multiple attempts using different donors -- they still have not figured out compatibility and compensation vectors for FMT). FMT in the US is restricted to a very small number of conditions, and long haul covid is unlikely to be included for decades.
Technically, sufficient information appears to be available on PubMed (National Library of Medicine). It is not consolidated into a cookbook formula but spread across over 3000 separate articles. Clinical MDs do not have time to consume this, and applying it would be contrary to existing standards of care. Their supervisors will veto it (been there, seen that!)
Bottom Line
The cure for Long Haul Covid is likely the same cure as ME/CFS. From existing studies, we know that a percentage will spontaneous recover every 6 months, with the percentage decreasing over time. Some will never recover. A few will, like ME/CFS. continue to get worst.

lassesen | March 2, 2021 at 3:11 pm | Categories: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome | URL: https://wp.me/p2Sdu4-b2b

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godlovesatrier

Senior Member
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2,609
Location
United Kingdom
I wish they would stop lumping PVFS into the same category as long covid/ME. I mean loads of patients recover from PVFS - I did twice in my twenties! But when it goes on longer for 6 months you know something isn't right.

As for the microbiome one, I've never found probiotics to be very helpful in controlling or curing the issue. Monolaurin should also be fantastic for microflora balance but that doesn't appear to cure the whole issue. I think it's an issue of potency and broad spectrum effect again and do probiotics even work all that well in the first place. Would be happy to take something, but Biokult, Aloe Juice and the like don't seem to cut it.
 
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