Bad reaction high dose to vitamin D

[PatJ]

I'd like to get some feedback about the problems I've been having after taking high dose vitamin D. I was quite stable for someone with ME/CFS but vitamin D has ruined that stability. The past month has been the worst for my health in years.

I've been having more trouble than usual with thinking, and my tolerance for looking a computer monitor is down 60-90 minutes per day due to new sensitivities so it has taken a couple of weeks to (I think) figure out what is happening.

Background
* I last had my vitamin D tested over a decade ago. It was low but I didn't do much about it except take low dose D every so often.
* I've been housebound for years and don't tolerate sunlight very well but do sit outside in summer. Winter here is eight months long and dark. Sitting outside means being bundled up except the face, so I don't get much natural light in winter. So I'm assuming my D is very low.

* Vitamin D - I was taking high dose vitamin D more often starting around mid-October. Around 8-12,000 IU every few days.
* Last dose - The last dose of 12,000 IU was on November 8.
* K2 - I was taking it with 50mcg of K2 but only on the day I took the D (brainfog thinking).
* Magnesium - I was taking it with at least 400mg per day of magnesium in small doses throughout the day.
* I was also supplementing potassium. Roughly 700mg per day.

I had a Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo episode in October, shortly after starting high dose D. This might not be related but BPPV is caused by calcium stones becoming dislodged in the ear so maybe it has something to do with the vitamin D.

I did the Eply manouvre for BPPV in early November - it worked to fix the BPPV but now I have poor balance due to dizzyness and still have to move slowly. This is probably from the brain having to decompensate for the compensating it did for the otoliths (calcium stones) that caused the BPPV.

I'm getting other dizziness now as well from vitamin D related problems:
* Low blood sugar episodes - I've had problems with low blood sugar for years but it was managed. Now I've regressed due to the vitamin D. Blood sugar drops sooner. It seems to be slowly getting better now that I've included more calcium in my diet.
* Low calcium, and sometimes after taking a calcium supplement

Is this what happened?
* I had a low calcium diet
* Vitamin D, 8-12K IU every few days lead to calcium being used better which has lead to...
- worse blood sugar control;
- computer monitor induced strong anxiety (I'm limited to around 60-90 minutes per day now);
- looser stool;
- regular dizziness;
- poor quality thinking;
- OCD problem solving of what was happening, probably due to anxiety;
- depression.
* Bad move?: I only took 50mcg of K2 on the day I took the vitamin D. I should have been taking a higher dose, _and_ should have it taken every day.

Questions
* Does it look like my reasoning above might be correct? High D lead to low calcium and my ongoing symptoms?
* What does calcium have to do with blood sugar control?
* If I supplement with calcium carbonate my balance gets worse, I get fatigue, my heart beats more strongly, and it might be causing anxiety. Is this a sign that I need more magnesium? I'm experimenting with the dose.
* Could the K2 be causing problems?

Thanks for any help.

@Learner1, @YippeeKi YOW !!

 

[Alvin2]

You likely don't need that much vitamin D.
I would start with 1000IU/day.
Its not a bad idea to drop it 500IU daily or 1000IU every other day if you really need to. Even 500IU every other day would not be terrible. If your going to get your levels tested give it at least one month (or better yet two months) for stable levels at testing.
K2 should not have much effect on ME. Famous last words of course.
You don't need supplemental K2, or more accurately most of the human population is deficient in it anyways and we see the results in bone density and heart disease so its a devil we know.
That said if the K2 is not affecting your ME its great to take because its good for health but if it is interfering with your ME skip it.

If you have been low Vitamin D for many years your bone density might be quite negatively affected

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I'm a little more foggy than normal today, so this is going to be all over the place, and apologies up front

I was taking high dose vitamin D more often starting around mid-October. Around 8-12,000 IU every few days.

This may or may not be too high, as usual, it depends. Like everything else. Drag.

Over a more or less two year period, I worked my way up from having really bad reactions to Vit D .... well, to pretty much every supp I was taking, Vit D included .... to slowly and gradually getting to where I am today: 6000 IU of vit D every 2nd or third day in the morning, and 300-400 mcg MK7, 8000 mcgs MK4 every evening with whatever is passing for dinner. MK7 has a long half life, so 3-400 mcgs builds on itself nicely, MK4, which had better results with increasing bone density, at least in the famous Japanese experiments has a much shorter half-life.

So far this has worked well for me. At least I haven't broken anything, and it's been positive for both mood and energy, at least going by anecdotal notes re same in my intake journal .....

I only took 50mcg of K2 on the day I took the vitamin D. I should have been taking a higher dose, _and_ should have it taken every day.

Absolutely yes on taking a higher dose, and also on taking it, even on the days when you dont take Vit D, see above re half lives, etc ....

MK7 and MK4 corral all the calcium that Vit D releases into your system, and ushers it politely and firmly into where it should go, like bones and teeth, and keeping it out of where it shouldn't be, like bony areas of the ears and blood vessels and aortas. It's essential. Otherwise it's like letting toddlers loose at a carnival, where everything looks equally fun, and they're all over the place ...

The Vit K is ABSOLUTELY essential whe supplementing with Vit D. There are many and varied opinions of how much per, say, every 1000 iu of Vit D. Generally a good rule of thumb is 50 to 100 mcg/ 1000 iu Vit D, my intake has been governed as much by availability and cost as anything else. Some days I take more MK7 (which has a much greater range of research and enormous fandom) or more MK4, without any logical explanation to it .... usually its more MK4 due to its shorter half-life.

If I supplement with calcium carbonate my balance gets worse, I get fatigue, my heart beats more strongly, and it might be causing anxiety

Is this a sign that I need more magnesium?

It very well could be. As you know I'm a big booster of magnesium for an enormously wide range of issues, and its one of the primary minerals that almost all of us are probably deficient in, given it's extraordinary range of critical actions in the human body.

Calcium and magnesium tend to compete for absorption, so even when I'm doing the small doses every 60 to 90 or 120 min's thing, I try to keep them in separate corners, as it were.

I use mag glycinate with excellent effect, tho you may find that another form of magnesium is friendlier to your needs and system. Just avoid mag citrate and mag oxide due to their wrenching bowel effects, which is great if you're battling constipation, not any kind fun at all otherwise. I use 3/8th's of a teaspoon of Bulk Supplement's mag oxide powder when that's a problem for me, and it works like a charm: no side effects, no unpleasantness, just reliable, overnight action...

I'm experimenting with the dose.

That's pretty much the only way to find what works best for you ... what others do can be helpful as a sort of guideline, but not necessarily directly translatable specifically to you or your system's and needs....

Could the K2 be causing problems?

I dont think so. I think the low dose you're taking is more likely to be a problem when dosing larger amounts of Vit D ....

K2 should not have much effect on ME. Famous last words of course.

I don't think this is totally a direct ME issue, @Alvin2 , but rather a Vit D/MK7, MK4/Calcium/Magnesium issue. Of course, anything that helps in one area of health might tip the balance positively in other areas, but there's no knowing without trialing and experimenting.

That said if the K2 is not affecting your ME its great to take because its good for health but if it is interfering with your ME skip it.

I can't see how MK2, 4, or 7 could negatively affect ME, but we all know what a twisty little weasel this illness is, so there's no saying.

But it's absolutely certain that IF you're going to supplement with Vit D, you really need to balance that with the polite calcium usher, Vit K, in the MK7 and/or MK4 forms ....

By-the-bye, Vit K-2, the kind that comes from leafy greens and whose primary function is blood clotting, is of less value in regards to avoiding painful and smetimes deadly calcium deposits in the wrong places ....

I'm really sorry that I'm not firing on all cylinders today, @PatJ .... please, please hit me back if you have more questions or input or thoughts on this, and hopefully I'll have better focus and command of the experiential knowledge that I've painfully accumulated on this ....

I'm going to come back later or maybe early tomorrow AM and reread your post, I have the feeling I might have missed something, or forgotten something or overlooked something. And that's my OCD-ity ..... ....

EDIT .... I tried, with my usual slapdashery, to clean up the typos, but they're evasive little bustards and I know I missed some. Quite a few. Probably a LOT ....

 

[pamojja]

Questions
* Does it look like my reasoning above might be correct? High D lead to low calcium and my ongoing symptoms?

You only took 1.200 IU/day the last 10 days. That little very unlikely leads to high D3 in serum. In my case had below serum normal calcium levels for 2 years, before vitamin D3 supplementation (7,000 IU/d) increased serum calcium to normal. What is your serum calcium history?

Sufficient vitamin D does the opposite, it increases absorbtion of calcium, as in my years long experience with really high dose D3.

* If I supplement with calcium carbonate my balance gets worse, I get fatigue, my heart beats more strongly, and it might be causing anxiety. Is this a sign that I need more magnesium?

This also suggests you rather suffer too much calcium, for which of course enough vitamin K2 every day, along with avoiding calcium, is the right countermeassure to take.

In my case sufficient vitamin 25(OH)D3 levels (~about 70 ng/ml average the last 12 years from in total 7,700 IU daily) caused a severe Mg-deficiency. Which oral doses of up to 2.4 g/d of oral elemental Magnesium couldn't reverse, only elaviated very painfull musclecramps somewhat. Additional Mg-sulfate IVs finally did it.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Hiya @PatJ , and Im back ..... usual afterthoughts ....

Does it look like my reasoning above might be correct? High D lead to low calcium and my ongoing symptoms?

Vit D releases calcium into your system, but doesnlt regulate where it goes or what it does. It's like opening a floodgate without supplying any irrigation ditches. It'll go all over the place, but probably not on your peach trees .....

What does calcium have to do with blood sugar control?

Studies have demonstrated an increased risk for diabetes in patients who had the highest levels of SERUM calcium, ie, calcium that was just floating about aimlessly. Vit K is the answer for this problem.

There doesnlt seem to be any correlation between serum calcium concentration and your glucose and insulin secretion or sensitivity.

I think I've broken my three functioning brain cells ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

You only took 1.200 IU/day the last 10 days.

I read @PatJ 's post differently, as 8 to 12,000 IU Vit D every few days ... not 1.200 IU a day ....

Where did I go wrong .....

I was taking high dose vitamin D more often starting around mid-October. Around 8-12,000 IU every few days.
* Last dose - The last dose of 12,000 IU was on November 8.

Sufficient vitamin D does the opposite, it increases absorbtion of calcium,

Not entirely. It will increase the amount of calcium that the gut's capable of absorbing, but it does nothing about where that calcium goes after it enters the bloodstream, which is where the damage from hi-dose D can occur as it settles in veins, vessels, heart, soft tissues, etc as opposed to bones and teeth et al .....

 

[pamojja]

... not 1.200 IU a day ....

Where did I go wrong .....

The last dose of 12,000 IU was on November 8.

Today is the 18th. So 1.200 IU/d the last 10 days.

It will increase the amount of calcium that the gut's capable of absorbing, but it does nothing about where that calcium goes after it enters the bloodstream,

For exactly that I did mention only vitamin K2 taken every day would be the countermeassure, along with reduced calcium-intake.

 

[wigglethemouse]

@PatJ Have a read of this thread
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/extreme-sensitivity-to-vitamin-d-need-help.80730/

I cannot tolerate sunlight (MCAS) or Vitamin D. Vit D at 5000UI gave me vertigo for 5 days. I also cannot tolerate Magnesium, Potassium, and most likely calcium supplementation either. Many of us have electrolyte balance issues so it's best for me not to mess around if not needed by strong medical evidence.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Today is the 18th. So 1.200 IU/d the last 10 days.

No, that's ONE dose of 12,000 IU on the 8th ..... Vit D doesn't spread itself evenly over a period of days. We call it a vitamin, but it's actually a hormone, or more accurately a steroid, and the body uptakes and utilizes it fairly close to the point of ingestion.

The new medical fad of 50,000 IU's at a time has been proven much less effective than a lower daily dose, for exactly that reason, except in extreme emergencies ....

For exactly that I did mention only vitamin K2 taken every day would be the countermeassure.

Which is also exactly what I said in my post, just above yours. So we;re singing from the same hymnal, yes?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@PatJ ...
And yet another afterthought, but one I think you're already really familiar with, I remember your mentioning this in another thread where magnesium was under discussion: proper absorption of Vit D sucks up magnesium like crazy, so if you're already operating on less than optimal reserves of magnesium, taking additional Vit D will tip you over almost immediately into every form of hypomagnesemia and all it's evil little friends ....

I seem to recall something about potassium as well, but apparently, those brain cells are down for the count .... I'll be back when I can remember that info .....

 

[Judee]

Oddly enough, it could also be the brand of vitamin D you're taking. I bought one kind on ebay and it made me feel sick but when I buy the same dose on Prohealth (their brand), I do fine. I also tend to do fine on the ones made with fish oil.

I have to take it with K2 otherwise I get leg cramps.

Your calcium could have gone low. Perhaps try to eat it always with a high calcium food rather than supplementation. My mom and I avoid calcium supplementation because most of the time it makes us feel sick even when it's in something like cereal or almond milk.

All that being said, maybe you would do better trying to get your vitamin D from foods instead. I find when I cannot tolerate a supplement, I do okay with the same thing in a food. Here is a website that lists foods high in vitamin D.

Hope you get some answers. It's so discouraging to have this disease get worse.

 

[Sushi]

* Vitamin D - I was taking high dose vitamin D more often starting around mid-October. Around 8-12,000 IU every few days.
* Last dose - The last dose of 12,000 IU was on November 8.
* K2 - I was taking it with 50mcg of K2 but only on the day I took the D (brainfog thinking).
* Magnesium - I was taking it with at least 400mg per day of magnesium in small doses throughout the day.
* I was also supplementing potassium. Roughly 700mg per day.

Hi Pat, this is the kind of situation that drives us all nuts, no matter what our personal version of it is!

Great points from the earlier response. Then there is the question of your Vit D receptors. At one point I had mine tested and it is possible that wacky receptors could affect your tolerance of D3 by affecting the amount that you actually metabolize--so smaller daily dose could give a different effect.

I assume your potassium was in supplemental form rather than food? This is a pretty high dose for non-food potassium but the most common problem with supplemental potassium is with kidney function, though potassium has widely ranging metabolic effects. It is safer to increase your potassium with food (V8 juice is a good source). No idea though how supplemental potassium would play into your complex scenario though except that it has it "finger" in most every metabolic pot and from my reading having a high normal potassium value helps many metabolic processes.

 

[PatJ]

I assume your potassium was in supplemental form rather than food?

It was supplemental. I'm not sure how I decided I needed that much. I'm not taking any supplemental at the moment. I do drink a cup of vegetable juice every day as well.

Thank you all for the extensive feedback. I'm trying to integrate what I've read.

BTW I'm vegetarian so any K2 in my diet would have to come from conversion from K1, which apparently has mixed effectiveness by individual.

It looks like I probably figured it backwards, thinking I had low calcium when it's probably high (acting like Yippee's toddlers at a carnival) due to vitamin D still floating around in my body. Someone in another thread said that vitamin D has a half-life of 16 days, and this page says half life varies quite a bit, so it could take quite awhile to leave my body and for me to stabilize.

Either I respond strangely to calcium carbonate, or my calcium is too high, or something else?. I don't get the same weird response from calcium in food though, say some Swiss cheese.

Here's what happened yesterday with 300mg of calcium carbonate:
* Slightly stronger heartbeat (I've gotten this with every dose)
* Increased dizzyness
* Ear pressure/fullness
* Warm face, then warm eyes
* Nasal congestion with warmth
* The above three felt like a head cold
* Fatigue (I've gotten this with every dose)
* Worse thinking quality (thinking quality has been all over the place lately)
* Yawning (I rarely yawn so this is weird)
* High BP - this one surprised me. 1.5 hours after taking the calcium my BP was 113/70; It's usually 90/70. (Both while wearing mild compression socks). 10 minutes later it was 103/74. It was then that the head cold feeling was finally fading.

I had taken magnesium a few times during the day before taking the calcium, small doses of 50-80mg each time.

Then I had a night with some leg and arm muscle tightness, a few small leg tremors, and extra tinnitus. Later I was able to get to sleep and felt extremely relaxed after waking.

Also, the day before yesterday I had leg spasms (and other symptoms listed above) after taking calcium.

Calcium is one of those things where the high and low symptoms are similar. Based on the leg spasms, heart intensity increase, dizziness and other symptoms that occur so soon after taking calcium carbonate it looks like an overdose. Or maybe I just can't absorb so much at once since it doesn't happen with food?

Another BTW: Vitamin D increases insulin sensitivity so maybe that's why my blood sugar is dropping faster.

 

[pamojja]

BTW I'm vegetarian so any K2 in my diet would have to come from conversion from K1, which apparently has mixed effectiveness by individual.

K2-mk4 usually comes from animals. K2-mk7 from fermented Natto beans. Therefore try to get K2-mk7, you might really need it.

Also in my case my only ubiome microbiome test showed almost none of the vitamin K1 to vitamin K2 converting gut bacteria. I took in total 15 mg/d of K2s due to artheriosclerosis the last 12 years.

 

[uglevod]

That's all so complex. Vit D as a vitamin is a direct antibacterial/antiviral. As a hormone it is additionally an inducer of antiviral/antibacterial peptides(given the fact that its effect is not already blocked by pathogens).

I'd keep a close eye on the calcium levels in blood, since it could additionally induce their raise as well as accelerates bone loss.

 

[Alvin2]

The Vit K is ABSOLUTELY essential whe supplementing with Vit D.

I would not go this far.
In fact most doctors have never heard of K2, its not used in any official capacity, even osteoporosis doctors rarely have heard of it and don't prescribe it since its not standard medical procedure.
AFAIK its not even taught in medical school yet.
Standard treatment for osteoporosis is Vitamin D, calcium and bisphosphonates (and a few "next generation" not very good bone building drugs).

I can't see how MK2, 4, or 7 could negatively affect ME, but we all know what a twisty little weasel this illness is, so there's no saying.

I agree, it should not affect he ME but if it is my point was that it can be skipped.

But it's absolutely certain that IF you're going to supplement with Vit D, you really need to balance that with the polite calcium usher, Vit K, in the MK7 and/or MK4 forms ....

Its not that simple.
What K2 does is under investigation and research and there is a fair amount of research that shows that it prevents arterial plaque and improves bone density (though the mechanism is unwieldy and somewhat contradictory).
Virtually the entire human race is deficient in K2, except for those who have learned about it online.

By-the-bye, Vit K-2, the kind that comes from leafy greens and whose primary function is blood clotting, is of less value in regards to avoiding painful and smetimes deadly calcium deposits in the wrong places ....

Conversion from K1 to K2 is unproven in humans and may not occur at all.
Frankly i think everyone should be taking K2, but besides a few online sources most of the medical profession does not even acknowledge its existence, never mind using it.
So if PatJ cannot tolerate it then by not taking it they would be exactly where virtually the entire rest of our species is in K2 status.
In Japan they have done some trials for osteoporosis (the dosage being crazy), i think there has been some European trials and other small scale stuff like that.

Then there is the question of your Vit D receptors. At one point I had mine tested and it is possible that wacky receptors could affect your tolerance of D3 by affecting the amount that you actually metabolize--so smaller daily dose could give a different effect.

I have never heard of this test, do you remember what its called by any chance?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

In fact most doctors have never heard of K2,

They also have never heard of ME, and refuse to believe in its existence .... so there's that .... ....

AFAIK its not even taught in medical school yet.

Nothing nutritional, or at least incredibly littl, beyond folic acid (not the more natural form, folate) during pregnancy, and Vit C for scurvy, is taught in medical school, at least here in the US. They spend more time on billing procedures and appt scheduling than they do on nutrition. It might be different in Europe, and is probably definitely different in Germany ...

Standard treatment for osteoporosis is Vitamin D, calcium and bisphosphonates

Bisphosphonates have been proven to be worse for bone density than taking nothing at all. While Bisphosphonates do increase the amount of bone formation, it's of poor quality, creating extremely porous, fragile bone, which breaks easily, and worse, shatters easily .... Vit D is a small step in the right direction, but without balancing it with Vit K, it has limited benefit, and that's offset by the damage free calcium can do to arteries, vessels, brain, etc ....

Virtually the entire human race is deficient in K2, except for those who have learned about it online.

I learned about it reading research papers. Tho granted, that was online.

Frankly i think everyone should be taking K2, but besides a few online sources most of the medical profession does not even acknowledge its existence, never mind using it.

And again, most of the medical community doesnt acknowledge the existence of ME, virtually never recommends ANY vitamin or mineral, beyond the most basic and well-known (Vit C, Vit E, Vit D, Folic Acid), and generally believes that anything they cant write a prescription for is total hokum ....

So if PatJ cannot tolerate it then by not taking it they would be exactly where virtually the entire rest of our species is in K2 status.

I dont think it's an issue of Vit K intolerance, as much as a function of his being a vegetarian. But as @pamojja correctly observed, MK-7 IS vegetarian and should do the trick for @PatJ .... I only add in MK-4 out of an excess of caution, because of the Japanese multi-year study that showed it to be extremely effective for bone density ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

That's all so complex. Vit D as a vitamin is a direct antibacterial/antiviral.

I believe that it's action is more indirect, since it induces the expression of proteins that are antibacterial, and also creates a supportive environment for them, which appears to support increased bacterial mortality in several different cells types, but not all.

Adding to the uncertainty is that these Gram-positive and Gram-negative antibacterial effects existed in in vitro studies, but in vivo studies produced conflicting results.

So, the jury's still out on Vit D as a reliable anti-bacterial ....

 

[pamojja]

because of the Japanese multi-year study that showed it to be extremely effective for bone density ....

A whole long page of accumulated research on bone health and vitamin K starting in the seventies: https://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=Bone

 

[Alvin2]

They also have never heard of ME, and refuse to believe in its existence .... so there's that .... ....

Yes, but my point is that its not the end of the world if PatJ cannot tolerate K2.
They will end up at the same level as virtually all of the rest of humanity in that regard.

Nothing nutritional, or at least incredibly littl, beyond folic acid (not the more natural form, folate) during pregnancy, and Vit C for scurvy, is taught in medical school, at least here in the US. They spend more time on billing procedures and appt scheduling than they do on nutrition. It might be different in Europe, and is probably definitely different in Germany ...

Here in Canada they know their vitamins but doctors think of supplementing vitamins as alternative medicine. If you get to a dietician they know the nutrients.

Bisphosphonates have been proven to be worse for bone density than taking nothing at all. While Bisphosphonates do increase the amount of bone formation, it's of poor quality, creating extremely porous, fragile bone, which breaks easily, and worse, shatters easily

I'm no fan of them either, the risk of the jaw cracking is something like 1 in 20 iirc.

Vit D is a small step in the right direction, but without balancing it with Vit K, it has limited benefit, and that's offset by the damage free calcium can do to arteries, vessels, brain, etc ....

It has benefit in what vitamin D does, it affects the immune system, its does its part in bone formation, it helps the body absorb calcium form food and so forth.

I learned about it reading research papers. Tho granted, that was online.

I found out about it in doing dental research.
On an unrelated note i came across this article recently, though the author should know about K2 yet seems to not be talking about it at all.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jul/04/does-the-key-to-anti-ageing-lie-in-our-bones

And again, most of the medical community doesnt acknowledge the existence of ME, virtually never recommends ANY vitamin or mineral, beyond the most basic and well-known (Vit C, Vit E, Vit D, Folic Acid), and generally believes that anything they cant write a prescription for is total hokum ....

My thoughts on this would fill a novel.
If i ever get some cognitive functioning i'll write it

I dont think it's an issue of Vit K intolerance, as much as a function of his being a vegetarian. But as @pamojja correctly observed, MK-7 IS vegetarian and should do the trick for @PatJ .... I only add in MK-4 out of an excess of caution, because of the Japanese multi-year study that showed it to be extremely effective for bone density ....

I don't think tolerance to K2 has anything to do with vegetarianism.
I take MK4 by Thorne which is not animal source, its synthetic but molecularly identical iirc.