B2 I love you!

[Asklipia]

Hanna and brenda, thank you for your help. Let's see what happens with 10 mg manganese daily (taken half an hour before meal). I shall report!
I was wondering about the WaterOz manganese. It is supposed to be more absorbable, but is there another reason why it is better? Are there some drawbacks to taking other forms of manganese? I remember vaguely reading that there might be problems with manganese supplementation which are avoided with the Water Oz, and don't remember where I read this, or if it is even true.

 

[brenda]

We are having a rethink about WaterOz due to the plastic bottle, otherwise it is a good way to take it.

 

[dmholmes]

One thing I don't understand is : sometimes I get yellow pee, as though the B2 was not absorbed, and sometimes I do not. I have raised the manganese to 10 mg every day to try to absorb the B2 better. I do not know if this helps as it does not seem to make a difference yet. I seem to recall that Hanna said C. has recommended to keep the pee flowing yellow. Is that true?

I believe the urine color is due to bilirubin levels, which can be affected by a number of things other than riboflavin.

Keep in mind that non-ionic manganese is absorbed in small amounts, 3-5%. If that 10 mg is a chelated form for example, absorption will be in the order of 300-500 mcg.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Asklipia, In the past I have had itching and burning in my armpits and 'legpits'. It is a lymph system symptom and I think it is related to ME/CFS. I don't get it much anymore. The rebounder stimulated movement in the lymph system which reduces or stops the itching and burning.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Oops, I didn't notice there was another page of this yesterday.

C told me that the Water Oz could be taken in tiny amounts - drops every few hours - to keep my structures working but not overtax my transferrin.

She told me to take the manganese glyconate chelate on an empty stomach, at least 2 hours after and 30 minutes before a meal. Since I eat frequently to maintain a steady blood sugar level, this limits the number of doses I can take in a day. Does the Water Oz have to be taken on an empty stomach?

 

[brenda]

No you can take it with meals. I hold it in my mouth for a few minutes though I`m not sure if that helps.

 

[aquariusgirl]

So, I am wondering if this B2 deficiency explains why so many of us cannot tolerate GSH.. Low B2, > Low B3> inability to recycle GSH, so adding more GSH means more oxidative stress?

 

[richvank]

So, I am wondering if this B2 deficiency explains why so many of us cannot tolerate GSH.. Low B2, > Low B3> inability to recycle GSH, so adding more GSH means more oxidative stress?

Hi, AQ.

I've been wondering the same thing.

I've also been wondering if there is a reason why PWMEs might be particularly low in B2 and manganese. As you noted, B2 is especially important for glutathione reductase. It's also true that manganese is necessary for the mitochondrial superoxide dismutase, SOD2. As we know, oxidative stress is an important feature of ME/CFS. Perhaps these particular essential nutrients became exhausted in the effort to control oxidative stress. Just a speculation.

I still can't understand how taking B2 together with other B vitamins would necessarily deplete B2. After all, the B vitamins occur together in foods, and we know that they work together in the energy metabolism. Perhaps the problem has been that the relative amounts of the B vitamins in some B-complex supplements has not been correct, in that perhaps they did not have enough B2 relative to other B vitamins, such as B6.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Hanna]

I don't understand also why taking B2 together with others Bs would deplete B2, but there is a fact that some people here on the "b2 trip" have experienced very strong reactions from B2 alone, and previously they were on different multi B's.
I admit that my latest choice was a very bad one : the B2 intake in the AOR product was so tiny and may have widened the imbalance between B's.
But prior to AOR I had been using Solgar b complex and Freddd's choice (don't recall the name of the product sorry) and was found very deficient in B3 (Acumen Labs). So perhaps, B3 was induced by B2 deficiency, and B2 had'nt been repleted by my different multiB.

 

[brenda]

Christine says that B6 has to be converted to it's 2 usable forms which requres an enzyme that uses up B2. By supplementing manganese and observing the effect it has on the urine, I can see how easily it is repleted by the things I eat. C says that zinc depletes it quickly. Perhaps it is due to oxaditive stress rich. I wish you were still in discussion with her

 

[aquariusgirl]

Rich, picking up from your point ....regardless of how we got here.. IF we are particularly depleted in B2, can you see how you would need to supplement that one in isolation?>

Also, have you noticed from analysing all those cases that many PWCs show a lack of B6, which could be a functional lack of B6? which could point to a lack of B2?
Just wondering if this is a common theme.

It would be nice if lack of B2 and manganese was the root issue with intolerance of GSH.. cos that would be fairly easily fixed you would think.. even tho it might take time.....

 

[richvank]

***Hi, AQ.

Rich, picking up from your point ....regardless of how we got here.. IF we are particularly depleted in B2, can you see how you would need to supplement that one in isolation?>

***Yes, that makes sense.

Also, have you noticed from analysing all those cases that many PWCs show a lack of B6, which could be a functional lack of B6? which could point to a lack of B2?
Just wondering if this is a common theme.

***Yes. Some of the metabolic type tests, including the urine organic acids, have an independent marker for B2 (i.e. glutaric acid), so you can tell if it's low, and it frequently is in the PWMEs whose results I've seen. There are also lots of markers for active B6, and they also frequently indicate that it's low, but as you note, you can't separate B2 and B6 on these markers, so getting an independent look at B6 is not possible with this type of test. Health Diagnostics does direct measurements of B2 and B6, and with their testing you can separate them, but I haven't seen many of these.

It would be nice if lack of B2 and manganese was the root issue with intolerance of GSH.. cos that would be fairly easily fixed you would think.. even tho it might take time.....

***Yes, that would be very nice. Hopefully we will figure this out one of these days!

***Best regards,

***Rich

 

[aquariusgirl]

Thanks. Yes, well perhaps we are getting close to figuring out the chain of some deficiencies...

I can tell you that B2 on its own is very helpful for sleep .. more so than when I took it with other B vits, but by that point I was super low in B2.

If christine's protocol turns out to help with the anemia of chronic disease... it would be huge & so far so good .... I think it's probably one of many things we need to do .....

 

[Asklipia]

7 weeks into B2/Manganese

Now taking 37.5 to 50 mg B2 and 20 mg Manganese chelated every day.
No other supplements except :
- daily: 15 mg Menatetrenone (MK-4) with breakfast; Melatonin 3 mg + Zinc 8.7 mg + Selenium 50 mcg (these last three in the same preparation at night). I know that MK-4 must be depleting B2 but I feel much better taking it. Same goes for the Melatonin pill (because of zinc) but otherwise my eyes don't feel right and my sleep is less relaxed.
- on Sundays : 1 mg mb12 or 3 mg adb12 (supposed to lower B2 but I have some left-overs from trying the methylation protocol and I don't feel any bad effect when taking them. I figure once a week can't be that bad).

What I notice compared to 2 weeks ago when I was 5 weeks into this protocol:

- good energy;
- sleep = more dreams (not very nice ones but not that bad). Waking up a bit earlier than before. Sometimes irrepressible need to sleep after lunch. Feeling a very slight tension in my sleep;
- no bouts of sadness/depression/feeling overwhelmed;
- less affected by other people's depression!!!!!! Much less empathy!!!
- no nausea at all. Vague feeling sometimes in the stomach which I take maybe manganese induced. Nothing either painful or worrying, just a feeling, not getting worse at the moment;
- since the beginning of supplementation, very easy and slippery bowel movements. Transit was never a problem in the last year but now it seems there is a lot of lymph (or something oily) coating the matters. Colour normal, not very dark though;
- pee is back to absolutely normal colour;
- no more stuff coming out of my scalp and ears;
- Lots of new hair growing I think; I see them around the hairline babies 1 cm long; not sure;
- hearing more or less back to normal, with sometimes lower accuracy for a couple of hours;
- tiny improvement in blurry vision (so tiny I am not really sure this will last);
- one shoulder hurting sometimes, much less;
- short term memory loss by bursts, much less;
- irritation of the eyes in the morning on waking up only;
- dry mouth (not too bad) on waking (was worse before - not sure as it comes and goes);
- some mucous since last week coming out of my lungs which I have to spit out from time to time;
- sometimes a slight pain in the throat that does not last (gone next day);
- sometimes a lot of mucous coming out of my sinuses - this stops after a couple of hours;
- strange sharp pains that last only a couple of seconds = in my left ear deep inside, in my head at the back, behind one eye; generally followed by need to spit;
- hair getting greasy after a couple of days;
- even more easily satisfied by what I eat (appetite is still good) > bought myself a new swimming suit as I now feel I can reasonably hope to stay at the same weight long enough to enjoy it!

Today I shall stop all supplements just for one day.

Best wishes and good luck to all.
Asklipia

 

[cureminded]

Source Naturals has a sublingual R5P product on iHerb.

Hi Adreno,

I can't seem to find it. Could you please tell me what the iherb product code is? It's easier to search that way.

Thanks!

 

[adreno]

Hi Adreno,

I can't seem to find it. Could you please tell me what the iherb product code is? It's easier to search that way.

Thanks!

http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Coenzymated-B-2-Sublingual-60-Tablets/1036

 

[SaraM]

I get joint pain with 5-10 mg manganese. Any idea why this is happening? Thanks.

 

[adreno]

I get joint pain with 5-10 mg manganese. Any idea why this is happening? Thanks.

5-10mg manganese is 250-500% of the RDA. It might simply be too much for many people.

I had been taking 5mg for some months, until a blood test showed my hemoglobin to be very low. I was feeling increasingly weak and cold. Since manganese inhibits the absorption of iron, and iron builds hemoglobin, I have stopped the manganese and started supplementing iron. I feel much better now.

 

[cureminded]

5-10mg manganese is 250-500% of the RDA. It might simply be too much for many people.

I had been taking 5mg for some months, until a blood test showed my hemoglobin to be very low. I was feeling increasingly weak and cold. Since manganese inhibits the absorption of iron, and iron builds hemoglobin, I have stopped the manganese and started supplementing iron. I feel much better now.

Hi Adreno,

Has Christine ever tested you and advised you to take the manganese dose that you mentioned? Just curious since I've been considering the hairanalysis myself.

Thanks!

 

[adreno]

Hi Adreno,

Has Christine ever tested you and advised you to take the manganese dose that you mentioned?

No, it's just a fairly regular dose in many available supplements.