B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

Not sure what is in the B-complex vitamins that cause me such trouble, but usually folic acid is in there so maybe its that. Or is it common for people to react badly to certain B vitamins other than B-12? I'm concerned about taking so much b-12 and causing deficiency in the other vitamins though. Any ideas? Should I wait on the other B-12 Dibencozide do you think?

Hi Mishe,

Most people do not react in any way to a b-complex. Generally it does exactly what is expected, nothing noticeable. When cell formation actually starts up it can deplete things, especially potassium and Metafolin but that cam also include any combination of up to 40 or so items,. That is why one needs to take the basics. A 1000mcg mb12 sublingual of one of the 5 star brands can put 150-250mcg into blood serum. While this in not much it is more than is transported in the active transport system and is available to cells throughout the body for healing via diffusion much more quickly so healing starts faster and proceeds faster. There is a clear dose proportionate healing with mb12. If you want to wait on the adb12 a few days go ahead. However that will prolong startup and delay certain kinds of healing and functioning, for instance getting rid of brainfog, return of energy, reducing muscle pain and increase healing.

An intensification of symptoms with mb12 is not a BAD reaction. It is the summation of 600 or so processes starting up. However, folic acid can definitely cause a "bad" reaction. I know of no way at all to start them up without the effects of them starting up. You can either get it over with in a few days to a few months or you can stretch it out for months to years or the rest of your life. I've been through all of this from a terribly degenerated condition near death to good health. The things that react first with the startup are often the quickest things to heal.

Methylb12 with Metafolin starts up methylation almost right away. It also starts up all the other things mb12 does very quickly.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Rockt. I've actually been a little foggy since then, in what feels like a metaly kind of way. I'm wondering if the mb12 upregulated methylation too much and did in fact methylate some mercury.

How do you rebalance an overmethylation situation? Abstain from the methylator obviously, but is there any way to actively shut it down more?

Mr Kite,

Somewhere in this thread is a comparison of so-called "overmethylator" symptoms with so-called "undermethylator" symptoms. Interestingly all the symptoms on both lists are a combination of mb12, adb12 and mfolate deficiency symptoms. I had about equal numbers of symptoms from both lists, and that is typical. Why don't you check your symptoms against the two lists before you make changes. "Overmethylation" is purely theoretical for somebody with methylation not happening. The compilers of those lists even include depression on both lists. I suggest that if you are always chasing this mythical balance based on clearly false assumptions you will likely succeed in making things worse as each change you make is overshoot and never gives the body a chance to achieve a balance. I've been there and done that and it doesn't work. There are a lot of ways for things to go wrong and chasing this with all these tests doesn't work. I'm basing what I am saying on what works over and over again for a lot of people. Everybody has startup responses to mb12 who is deficient. It is really interesting to see all this now that I have identified a lot of the things that go wrong with a start and stop cycle such as happens with intermittant paradoxical folate deficiency. Consider that you have no idea any more what "normal" feels like and what it feels like to get there form where you are. I've been through it and am not working form hypotyhesis. I know what the landmarks look like. If all these tests actually lead to people getting well I wouldn't be saying this. Unfortunately they just prolong the illnesses because the assumptions of interpretation are based on decades of research based on the assumptions that the inactive cobalamins and folates actually performed the full job. They don't even when they work a little, they don't do the whole thing.

If you want to shut down methylation very easily if you react to folic acid with deficiency symptoms, you can turn methylation off in hours just by taking folic acid twice a day without Metafolin. Of course getting methylation going again takes longer and it feels different from being shut down. As far as I can tell it's either on or off. If you turn it on and leave it on things will balance out. You have just gotten used to it being shut down.

So how many hundreds or thousands of mgs per day (x1000 for mcg) of IV mb12 are you taking to cause this hypotheical reaction with Mercury? Just take a 1mg sublingual for a couple of hundred mcgs into serum. That will fill the backlogged need for b12 in your body in several months and give a chance for some healing to actually take place.

The test for how saturated the transport system of bond cobalamin is pretty worthless. It can tell you that you are deficient. It can't tell you that you have enough to heal. Filling that transport system doesn't heal these things and can replenish a depleted body in 20-30 years, if ever. If you want to heal before you die, it won't be done by via stopping mb12 because a few mcgs saturates the transport system.

 

[Freddd]

<3 Fredddddd!!! <3

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this info and so far (less than 2 weeks) am already showing a positive affect on the Jarrow b-12 5000mcg!!!!

I also received the Metafolin and B-right supplements this week. Still need to test the Metafolin before making any conclusions, but definitely seem to have a bad response to the B-right B-complex supplement. Increased fatigue, general body yuckiness, etc...very soon after taking which wasn't too surprising since thats the way I have responded to B-complex supplements for about 10 years. And multi-vitamins. And some other supplements.

Whats so neat to me is finally hearing someone confirm that that supplements like NAC, Undenatured Whey Protein and similar products that raise glutathione levels that are in so many formulas specifically recommended to improve the immune system and help those with ME/CFS are (well at least for some people) harmful! Not neat that it is harmful but just that my instinct was likely correct. Many times over the years I would endure some very miserable periods of time when I would set out to get "nutritional support" I believed that I had need of and also to get past the supposed "herx reaction" I would have taking those supplements and move onto better health. But that never happened. So for the most part I gave up taking supplements except for a few that don't seem to bother me.

Regarding B-12, In the first years I was ill I was near a city and I had more alternatives in health care than I do now in a small isolated town. I remember getting B-12 shots and immediately having beneficial reactions to them. I moved away and continue taking them, but from another pharmacy but for whatever reason they didn't work like they had before. I don't remember what the initial form of B-12 was, but I know the bunk stuff was cyanocobalamin and then hydroxocobalamin. I stopped using them.

Also have known without a doubt for many years that there is something in red meat (which I've assumed is B-12) that has a beneficial affect on me and if I don't regularly consume it my symptoms get worse. So no matter how many health fads or nutritionists or people who believe them say it isn't healthy I just can't agree with them in my case anyway.

Hi Mishe,

I'm glad you are doing well. However, it's not over yet. I stopped being a vegetarian as it almost killed me by leaving me at the mercy of cyanocbl without any real b12 from meat.

For the duration of the B-right my suggestion is to take a table of Metafolin (or a half maybe, the numbers may not be as important as the timing, 30 minutes before the B-right and another similar dose with the b-right. Then take another Metafolin in the evening without a B-right. That would probably make sure that you are likely to be having as beneficial effect from the Metafolin as you can by overriding the folic acid.

Also have known without a doubt for many years that there is something in red meat (which I've assumed is B-12) that has a beneficial affect on me and if I don't regularly consume it my symptoms get worse.

Red meat contains mostly adb12 and a little mb12. It also contains carnitine which works witrh the adb12 for energy in the mitochondria. A single small steak dinner can increase your blood serum level of cobalamin by 400pg/ml (2-4 mcgs). It is this variability with food that is one of the factors of making serum cobalamin, or bound cobalamin (since adb12 eaten and digested becomes bound) for that matter reliable only as an instantaneous snapshot of cobalamin. It can't tell you of sufficiency for the tissues, only deficiency in the serum. Snce you lump b-complex and multivitamins together in the same reaction, and folic acid can shut down the system within a couple of hours that does sound like a possible cause.

Many times over the years I would endure some very miserable periods of time when I would set out to get "nutritional support" I believed that I had need of and also to get past the supposed "herx reaction" I would have taking those supplements and move onto better health. But that never happened.

My experience too. I followed lots of hypothetical treatments by lots of practitioners of various sorts, eager to have their pet theory help me, and I was eager to have it help, only to have it fail ocver and over. Of course I knew what a "herx" reaction was by experience (some atypical antibiotic resistant pneumonia I had) and reading and winced every time I heard it misapplied. A herx reaction lasts as much as several hours and is over. It is rare and only happens when certain kinds of bacteria, often syphilis or other spirochete bacteria (Lyme might also be a possiblity) is killed en masse by antibiotics releasing a whole lot of toxins within the bacteria into serum at once, faster than our body can handle it.

When nobody has a correct theory that works, all sorts of theories that don't work abound reinforced by an occasional person improving by chance after a treatment.

Whats so neat to me is finally hearing someone confirm that that supplements like NAC, Undenatured Whey Protein and similar products that raise glutathione levels that are in so many formulas specifically recommended to improve the immune system and help those with ME/CFS are (well at least for some people) harmful!

Yes. And it isn't rare. It happens to people who have a basis of comparison who take a large enough dose or series of doses. I have no idea how such an obvious reaction could be so misinterpreted for years but it was because of the theories behind taking it. Every theory based on people taking cyancbl, hycbl and folic acid is probably wrong because they include an assumption that these are the effective vitamins and if they don't work it must be something else. It kept my 100 or so docs over time completely blind to b12 and folate deficiencies as possibilities of what was wrong with me because I was taking folic acid and cyanocbl and obviously couldn't be deficient. I spent $200,000 out of pocket ($10,000/year for 20 years) trying to find out what was wrong and correct it. I got called names and kicked out of practices for insisting that there was really something wrong with me that wasn't IAIYH (Its All In Your Head). I learned very directly what is wrong with the way research is done and tests interpreted. And spotting such patterns was what I did in the group health field I worked in for decades designing and writing software and consulting and evaluating and auditing plans.

So no matter how many health fads or nutritionists or people who believe them say it isn't healthy I just can't agree with them in my case anyway.

In the insurance business there was this old saying "First you make them sick, then you make them well". That is all too literal sometimes. What was meant was like the old close known as the "Back the hearse up to the door and let them smell the flowers" close. You make them well by selling them a bundle of life insurance by letting them know just how close and unexpected death can be.

I believe that fads should be left to hula hoops and Hello Kitty. Health is no place for fads. However, without the freedom to experiment I would never have been able to find out by experience what my problems were and I would have died a slow and miserable death by now.

 

[jeffrez]

Mr Kite,

Somewhere in this thread is a comparison of so-called "overmethylator" symptoms with so-called "undermethylator" symptoms. Interestingly all the symptoms on both lists are a combination of mb12, adb12 and mfolate deficiency symptoms. I had about equal numbers of symptoms from both lists, and that is typical. Why don't you check your symptoms against the two lists before you make changes. "Overmethylation" is purely theoretical for somebody with methylation not happening. The compilers of those lists even include depression on both lists. I suggest that if you are always chasing this mythical balance based on clearly false assumptions you will likely succeed in making things worse as each change you make is overshoot and never gives the body a chance to achieve a balance. I've been there and done that and it doesn't work. There are a lot of ways for things to go wrong and chasing this with all these tests doesn't work. I'm basing what I am saying on what works over and over again for a lot of people. Everybody has startup responses to mb12 who is deficient. It is really interesting to see all this now that I have identified a lot of the things that go wrong with a start and stop cycle such as happens with intermittant paradoxical folate deficiency. Consider that you have no idea any more what "normal" feels like and what it feels like to get there form where you are. I've been through it and am not working form hypotyhesis. I know what the landmarks look like. If all these tests actually lead to people getting well I wouldn't be saying this. Unfortunately they just prolong the illnesses because the assumptions of interpretation are based on decades of research based on the assumptions that the inactive cobalamins and folates actually performed the full job. They don't even when they work a little, they don't do the whole thing.

If you want to shut down methylation very easily if you react to folic acid with deficiency symptoms, you can turn methylation off in hours just by taking folic acid twice a day without Metafolin. Of course getting methylation going again takes longer and it feels different from being shut down. As far as I can tell it's either on or off. If you turn it on and leave it on things will balance out. You have just gotten used to it being shut down.

So how many hundreds or thousands of mgs per day (x1000 for mcg) of IV mb12 are you taking to cause this hypotheical reaction with Mercury? Just take a 1mg sublingual for a couple of hundred mcgs into serum. That will fill the backlogged need for b12 in your body in several months and give a chance for some healing to actually take place.

The test for how saturated the transport system of bond cobalamin is pretty worthless. It can tell you that you are deficient. It can't tell you that you have enough to heal. Filling that transport system doesn't heal these things and can replenish a depleted body in 20-30 years, if ever. If you want to heal before you die, it won't be done by via stopping mb12 because a few mcgs saturates the transport system.

The amount of mb12 I had was not hundreds or thousands of milligrams, but as I said was a 5mg IV. Maybe you meant micrograms, in which case 5mgs is the equivalent of 5,000mcgs. There are a lot of factors involved and it might not have been the mb12, but it is one possibility.

Whatever it is, it's definitely not a positive reaction. I've learned to listen to my body over the years and can tell the difference between a positive worsening and just a plain worsening. Two different reactions completely, with subtle differences and signals from the body to the brain as well as different patterns in each case. This was definitely a plain worsening. I might not remember what it feels like to be 'normal, but I definitely remember what it feels like not to be normal, and this reaction clearly is going in the wrong direction.

I'm not really sure what tests you are talking about there, I was only getting an IV. The only test I've had is the recent serum test, which showed a deficiency. I might simply have a different metabolic/blockage profile than you and most of the people who respond to your protocol, as some of the best I ever felt was when taking NAC and from a couple of GSH IVs I've had. I'm just trying to figure out what's what, and the b12 doesn't seem to be doing it so far. I might be someone who responds more to active folates or something else in the process, still trying to figure it out. My intuitive sense is not that I need b12 in high doses - I think the recent deficiency was mainly from the effects of the prilosec. But I'm still trying to work out exactly what might be going on. thanks for your input.

 

[maddietod]

Sorry, but I've got 2 idiot questions. First, what's the difference between reply to thread and reply?
Second, re. the herx reaction. Is that the presumed overloading of the system with released toxins, appearing to be a failure of the treatment but actually not so? If yes, are you saying that this reaction only ever lasts for several hours, AND are you saying that any negative reaction lasting longer than that is in fact a problem with the treatment plan?

 

[richvank]

Hi, madietodd.

There isn't much difference between Reply to Thread and Reply. If you are responding to a post that appears earlier in the thread than the end of it, by clicking on Reply you can keep that message on the screen so that you can refer to it as you are answering it. With Reply to Thread, you will be looking at the last post.

As Freddd said, the Jarisch Herxheimer reaction originally referred to a big die-off of syphilis-causing bacteria due to treatment with an antibiotic. It has come to be used rather loosely to refer to any unpleasant reaction to a treatment. Freddd's view has been that unpleasant reactions to B12-folate treatment are "start-up effects," and more recently he has been attributing them to deficiencies produced by improper treatment, such as with folic acid.

My view has been that the reactions people experience to this type of treatment can be excitotoxicity due either to initial further depletion of glutathione or mobilization of toxins that stimulate the NMDA receptors on the neurons, or they can be other symptoms produced by mobilization of toxins or die-off of pathogens. Since a partial block in the methylation cycle can be expected to cause dysfunction in the sulfur metabolism in general, which supports both the detoxication system and the immune system, it can be expected that toxins and pathogens will accumulate during the illness, and when the methylation cycle block is lifted, these systems will begin working off the backlog of toxins and pathogens, and that is likely to produce symptoms. Many PWCs have reported changes in the appearance or odor of perspiration, urine and/or stools, as well as metallic taste in the mouth. I think these are indicators that toxins are being mobilized and excreted. Many also have data on heavy metals in urine or stools, and these levels rise during the treatment, again supporting the proposition that toxins are being mobilized and excreted.

The unpleasant symptoms can last longer than several hours, and I think they are the inevitable result of having to clear out pathogens and toxins. But most people do experience benefit if they are able to stick with the treatment.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Vegas]

Hi, madietodd.



My view has been that the reactions people experience to this type of treatment can be excitotoxicity due either to initial further depletion of glutathione or mobilization of toxins that stimulate the NMDA receptors on the neurons, or they can be other symptoms produced by mobilization of toxins or die-off of pathogens. Since a partial block in the methylation cycle can be expected to cause dysfunction in the sulfur metabolism in general, which supports both the detoxication system and the immune system, it can be expected that toxins and pathogens will accumulate during the illness, and when the methylation cycle block is lifted, these systems will begin working off the backlog of toxins and pathogens, and that is likely to produce symptoms. Many PWCs have reported changes in the appearance or odor of perspiration, urine and/or stools, as well as metallic taste in the mouth. I think these are indicators that toxins are being mobilized and excreted. Many also have data on heavy metals in urine or stools, and these levels rise during the treatment, again supporting the proposition that toxins are being mobilized and excreted.


Rich

Burning/stinging of the eyes, muscle aches--particularly in the back and shoulders, nausea, some types of headaches, intermitent periods of brain fog, unusual smelling perspiration--I've become inured to this and can't really perceive this anymore but unfortunately others can, increased lymph node pain, rumbling/growling/ intestinal spasms, kidney pain, urethral pain, tender points in various places throughout the body, frequent bowel movements, decreased urination, malodorous urine, sulphur or other malodorous stools, discoloration of urine or stools. These are what I would consider the primary detox symptoms. The frequency and duration varies widely and much depends on factors such as the glutathione status-how much your cells are making and what is available to carry out these detox and immune functions as mediated by viral and free radical load, the presence of intestinal permeability, and the dosage and frequency of administration of methyl donors; particularly methyl folate and cobalamin, among other factors.

 

[maddietod]

Rich and Vegas - Thank you both for this information. I'm on day one of your protocol, Rich, and I wanted to have an idea what to watch out for. So far, so good!

Madeleine

 

[Freddd]

The amount of mb12 I had was not hundreds or thousands of milligrams, but as I said was a 5mg IV. Maybe you meant micrograms, in which case 5mgs is the equivalent of 5,000mcgs. There are a lot of factors involved and it might not have been the mb12, but it is one possibility.

Whatever it is, it's definitely not a positive reaction. I've learned to listen to my body over the years and can tell the difference between a positive worsening and just a plain worsening. Two different reactions completely, with subtle differences and signals from the body to the brain as well as different patterns in each case. This was definitely a plain worsening. I might not remember what it feels like to be 'normal, but I definitely remember what it feels like not to be normal, and this reaction clearly is going in the wrong direction.

I'm not really sure what tests you are talking about there, I was only getting an IV. The only test I've had is the recent serum test, which showed a deficiency. I might simply have a different metabolic/blockage profile than you and most of the people who respond to your protocol, as some of the best I ever felt was when taking NAC and from a couple of GSH IVs I've had. I'm just trying to figure out what's what, and the b12 doesn't seem to be doing it so far. I might be someone who responds more to active folates or something else in the process, still trying to figure it out. My intuitive sense is not that I need b12 in high doses - I think the recent deficiency was mainly from the effects of the prilosec. But I'm still trying to work out exactly what might be going on. thanks for your input.

Hi Mr Kite,

The reports that Rich had posted on possible neurological effects from methylated mercury were from "Large IV doses". 5mg of mb12 doesn't qualify as a large dose. IF 100% of it were to somehow react with mercury making monomethylmercury, it would make about 0.72mg of said monomethylmercury, about 2.5% of the amount needed, according to research to cause the beginning of noticeable neurological symptoms. As the serum halflife of b12 after injection is about 30 minutes after it hits the blood, about 90% is excreted in the urine, unchanged in the next 2 hours. That reduces the possible amount available for reaction to 10% except that the next 90% of that is excreted in the next 2 days leaving 1% available for reaction which would methylate about 0.0072 mg, 7.2 mcg. 7.2mcg is about 1/3 of the amount in a can of light tuna or 1/6 the amount in a can of albacore tuna to put it in perspective. As about 35mg of methylmercury is needed to cause methylmercury toxicity symptoms 7.2mcg or 72mcg or even 720mcg seems a rather long stretch to reach the 35mg. It is highly unlikely to cause any mercury toxicity at 5mg of mb12 IV or any other mode of administration.

5mg of IV mb12 would certainly cause a surge of high mb12 serum level (instantaneously about 500,000pg/ml-1,000,000pg/ml) which has the capability of deeply penetrating via diffusion any tissues of the body including the central nervous system, for a short while. For a person who is quite deficient and hasn't titrated up to about 20-25mg sublingually the effect could be totally overwhelming. The response would affect the nervous system quite strongly in addition to the body being affected in hundreds of ways. Because of the predictable overwhelming response starting with any injection of mb12 is certainly not suggested. There is no need for a hypothetical and extremely unlikely reaction with mercury requiring hundreds of times as much mb12 to even have a chance of methylating a reasonable amount of mercury for a perceivable neurological symptom. I was totally floored by an intial dose of about 200mcg. 25 times the amount would be a real shock to the system even though not a direct linear proportional response. I do understand why that would be interpreted as an unfavorable response. Almost everybody deficient would be likely to experience it that way.

 

[Freddd]

Hi, madietodd.

There isn't much difference between Reply to Thread and Reply. If you are responding to a post that appears earlier in the thread than the end of it, by clicking on Reply you can keep that message on the screen so that you can refer to it as you are answering it. With Reply to Thread, you will be looking at the last post.

As Freddd said, the Jarisch Herxheimer reaction originally referred to a big die-off of syphilis-causing bacteria due to treatment with an antibiotic. It has come to be used rather loosely to refer to any unpleasant reaction to a treatment. Freddd's view has been that unpleasant reactions to B12-folate treatment are "start-up effects," and more recently he has been attributing them to deficiencies produced by improper treatment, such as with folic acid.

My view has been that the reactions people experience to this type of treatment can be excitotoxicity due either to initial further depletion of glutathione or mobilization of toxins that stimulate the NMDA receptors on the neurons, or they can be other symptoms produced by mobilization of toxins or die-off of pathogens. Since a partial block in the methylation cycle can be expected to cause dysfunction in the sulfur metabolism in general, which supports both the detoxication system and the immune system, it can be expected that toxins and pathogens will accumulate during the illness, and when the methylation cycle block is lifted, these systems will begin working off the backlog of toxins and pathogens, and that is likely to produce symptoms. Many PWCs have reported changes in the appearance or odor of perspiration, urine and/or stools, as well as metallic taste in the mouth. I think these are indicators that toxins are being mobilized and excreted. Many also have data on heavy metals in urine or stools, and these levels rise during the treatment, again supporting the proposition that toxins are being mobilized and excreted.

The unpleasant symptoms can last longer than several hours, and I think they are the inevitable result of having to clear out pathogens and toxins. But most people do experience benefit if they are able to stick with the treatment.

Best regards,

Rich

Hi Rich,


Freddd's view has been that unpleasant reactions to B12-folate treatment are "start-up effects," and more recently he has been attributing them to deficiencies produced by improper treatment, such as with folic acid.

Actually I think that there are two rather distinctly different sets of reactions, the "start-up" effects which include ALL of the effects of methylation being restarted and then quite a few others, and in some people a rather different response from the paradoxical folate deficiency.

The startup response can occur starting within 5-10 minutes and causes perceived widespread intensification of symptoms, often a large change in energy and mood, and can happen with mb12 alone. It is most intense while the sublingual is in the mouth and starts subsiding almost as soon as it is swallowed. If no additional mb12 is taken these generally subside within a few days, or months with continued dosing.

On the other hand the paradoxical folate deficiency tends to start slowly and build and has a very limited number of symptoms affected, especially in the first month. Once it gets started it tends to go on and on, often worsening, whether the folic acid is stopped or not. It generally takes a larger than usual dose of Metafolin to reverse it. A person who is deficient in folate to begin with likely won't notice any change from taking folic/folinic acid. It can prevent many of the startup responses from mb12 from occurring and often causes a "no response".

The patterns of these two different things is quite clearly different

As Freddd said, the Jarisch Herxheimer reaction originally referred to a big die-off of syphilis-causing bacteria due to treatment with an antibiotic. It has come to be used rather loosely to refer to any unpleasant reaction to a treatment

The broadening of the meaning is such that when it ceases to have the specific meaning of the toxic reaction to a large bacterial die-off then we need a different word to mean that specific thing. When it broadens to include any "unpleasant" reaction to treatment it becomes not only useless but dangerous. While many people equate "unpleasant" to "bad" they are not equivalent. Calling folate deficiency "detox" confounds the situation making it incurable. Calling hypokalemia "detox" is dangerous and causes a potentially dangerous situation to be ignored and not treated properly.

Getting useful and accurate information from people is difficult at best. When they are unable to agree on a common vocabulary the first order of business is to define terms. Reading the medical records of a lot of people is just plain discouraging. I have observed a variety of medical exams of a number of people, compared the doctor's written report in the records, and of an IME (independent medical examiner) for instance, and testified in court as to the differences. What the doctor records compared to what the person said or how they responded is so different that the meaning was reversed in close to 50% of the cases. One of the thing I was involved with in my consulting was assessment of the accuracy of the records compared to the person and the procedures performed. We got pretty good at picking out records with errors and problems. A lot of them were just plain semantic misunderstandings and people using the same words for different meanings than their doctors.

My b12 and folate deficiencies were totally invisible because despite the multitude of symptoms they couldn't define them as b12 and/or folate deficiencies because that was impossible as I was taking b12 and folate (cyanocbl and folic acid) so therefore I couldn't possible be deficient. They totally lacked the concept that folic acid acted as folate only for some people and that cyanocbl only acted as b12 for some people and some symptoms. They did not carry that conditional definition in their consciousness so anybody using it was by definition "wrong" and had only "all in their head" problems.

 

[jeffrez]

Hi Mr Kite,

The reports that Rich had posted on possible neurological effects from methylated mercury were from "Large IV doses". 5mg of mb12 doesn't qualify as a large dose. IF 100% of it were to somehow react with mercury making monomethylmercury, it would make about 0.72mg of said monomethylmercury, about 2.5% of the amount needed, according to research to cause the beginning of noticeable neurological symptoms. As the serum halflife of b12 after injection is about 30 minutes after it hits the blood, about 90% is excreted in the urine, unchanged in the next 2 hours. That reduces the possible amount available for reaction to 10% except that the next 90% of that is excreted in the next 2 days leaving 1% available for reaction which would methylate about 0.0072 mg, 7.2 mcg. 7.2mcg is about 1/3 of the amount in a can of light tuna or 1/6 the amount in a can of albacore tuna to put it in perspective. As about 35mg of methylmercury is needed to cause methylmercury toxicity symptoms 7.2mcg or 72mcg or even 720mcg seems a rather long stretch to reach the 35mg. It is highly unlikely to cause any mercury toxicity at 5mg of mb12 IV or any other mode of administration.

5mg of IV mb12 would certainly cause a surge of high mb12 serum level (instantaneously about 500,000pg/ml-1,000,000pg/ml) which has the capability of deeply penetrating via diffusion any tissues of the body including the central nervous system, for a short while. For a person who is quite deficient and hasn't titrated up to about 20-25mg sublingually the effect could be totally overwhelming. The response would affect the nervous system quite strongly in addition to the body being affected in hundreds of ways. Because of the predictable overwhelming response starting with any injection of mb12 is certainly not suggested. There is no need for a hypothetical and extremely unlikely reaction with mercury requiring hundreds of times as much mb12 to even have a chance of methylating a reasonable amount of mercury for a perceivable neurological symptom. I was totally floored by an intial dose of about 200mcg. 25 times the amount would be a real shock to the system even though not a direct linear proportional response. I do understand why that would be interpreted as an unfavorable response. Almost everybody deficient would be likely to experience it that way.

Those are very interesting figures, thanks. When it comes to mercury, however, I've come to learn that the numbers mean virtually nothing. One person could be fine with a mouthful of amalgams, while another is extremely ill from just having a single one. So much depends on individual variances in sensitivity, biochemical status, genetic polymorphisms, antioxidant/GSH levels, and so many other factors. You keep saying 'hypothetical', but I just want to point out that the ability of mb12 to methylate mercury is not hypothetical at all, it is a fact. Regardless of what caused the worsening symptoms here, I think that point should not be minimized. Mercury toxicity is a serious issue, especially in the neurology, and can cause some nasty and longstanding problems. That is one possible effect that really shouldn't be taken lightly or casually at all, imho.

About the bad effect, one problem I have with this 'surge' idea is that the downturn didn't really start in full until the next day. It wasn't immediate, and it seemed to really kick off after taking even more jarrow mb12 the next day. I also got no other symptoms from the IV, either of bodily fatigue or energy improvement. I wasn't 'floored' like you describe in the least. Except for the cognitive worsening and slightly increased fatigue just from the 4-hour round trip and everything associated with it (very long day for me), I didn't have any other symptoms from the IV, only the cognitive ones. And those have persisted. B vitamins as a whole I suppose could cause differing cog. symptoms in different people, but again I wouldn't expect such a delayed reaction like that, or for it to continue to linger almost a week later like it's doing, declining only very slowly. All that points to neurological heavy metal toxicity to me.

The IV itself contained only the following:

Vit. C - 10g
B6 - 200mg/mL
mb12 - 5,000mcg.
B-complex - 200mg/mL
calcium gluconate - 200mg/mL
Pantothenic - 250mg/mL 50ml x 1.5
trace mineral mix
freeamine 8.5%

*Possibly* it could be an effect from an amino acid I'm reacting to, or b-6 or one of the b-complex vitamins, but the aminos are such a low amount and also like with the Bs I wouldn't expect the effects to persist like they have, with this very slow almost 'half-life' decay. What else there could really cause something like this? I just don't see it. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to get another IV without any mb12, and see if the same effect occurs or not. If it does, at least that would tell me it's not the b12. If it doesn't happen, then maybe try hydroxy instead. I'm not ready for that now, though, so I can only speculate and try to make an educated guess. Most roads seem to point to an Hg methylating effect of the mb12, it seems to me.

 

[jeffrez]

Or another thought is some excitatory neurotoxicity like rich describes. That might arise either from the mb12 effects, or possibly I suppose from calcium w/out magnesium, which I tend to react to with really severe bodily depression symptoms, like the body feels too depressed even to move. So maybe too much calcium influx led to an excitatory environment causing some damage or excess calcium influx that needs to be moved out of the cell again. I didn't get any 'mental boost' feelings like I would expect from an excitatory situation before it 'crashed and burned,' though. But I suppose it is another possibility.

 

[Freddd]

Those are very interesting figures, thanks. When it comes to mercury, however, I've come to learn that the numbers mean virtually nothing. One person could be fine with a mouthful of amalgams, while another is extremely ill from just having a single one. So much depends on individual variances in sensitivity, biochemical status, genetic polymorphisms, antioxidant/GSH levels, and so many other factors. You keep saying 'hypothetical', but I just want to point out that the ability of mb12 to methylate mercury is not hypothetical at all, it is a fact. Regardless of what caused the worsening symptoms here, I think that point should not be minimized. Mercury toxicity is a serious issue, especially in the neurology, and can cause some nasty and longstanding problems. That is one possible effect that really shouldn't be taken lightly or casually at all, imho.

About the bad effect, one problem I have with this 'surge' idea is that the downturn didn't really start in full until the next day. It wasn't immediate, and it seemed to really kick off after taking even more jarrow mb12 the next day. I also got no other symptoms from the IV, either of bodily fatigue or energy improvement. I wasn't 'floored' like you describe in the least. Except for the cognitive worsening and slightly increased fatigue just from the 4-hour round trip and everything associated with it (very long day for me), I didn't have any other symptoms from the IV, only the cognitive ones. And those have persisted. B vitamins as a whole I suppose could cause differing cog. symptoms in different people, but again I wouldn't expect such a delayed reaction like that, or for it to continue to linger almost a week later like it's doing, declining only very slowly. All that points to neurological heavy metal toxicity to me.

The IV itself contained only the following:

Vit. C - 10g
B6 - 200mg/mL
mb12 - 5,000mcg.
B-complex - 200mg/mL
calcium gluconate - 200mg/mL
Pantothenic - 250mg/mL 50ml x 1.5
trace mineral mix
freeamine 8.5%

*Possibly* it could be an effect from an amino acid I'm reacting to, or b-6 or one of the b-complex vitamins, but the aminos are such a low amount and also like with the Bs I wouldn't expect the effects to persist like they have, with this very slow almost 'half-life' decay. What else there could really cause something like this? I just don't see it. I suppose the only way to know for sure is to get another IV without any mb12, and see if the same effect occurs or not. If it does, at least that would tell me it's not the b12. If it doesn't happen, then maybe try hydroxy instead. I'm not ready for that now, though, so I can only speculate and try to make an educated guess. Most roads seem to point to an Hg methylating effect of the mb12, it seems to me.

Hi Mr Kite,

When it comes to mercury, however, I've come to learn that the numbers mean virtually nothing.

My words almost exactly in regards to all the testing around b12 and folate.

One person could be fine with a mouthful of amalgams, while another is extremely ill from just having a single one. So much depends on individual variances in sensitivity, biochemical status, genetic polymorphisms, antioxidant/GSH levels, and so many other factors. You keep saying 'hypothetical', but I just want to point out that the ability of mb12 to methylate mercury is not hypothetical at all, it is a fact.

If you were to read Dr. Cutler on the hypothetical methylation of mercury he says that it happens very readily in a test-tube full of high purity substances but almost not at all in the body with everything in a very dilute living system. In vivo can be very different from in vitro. He also expresses the idea that if it did methylate the mercury easily it would be to a less toxic form such as in fish and that it would be more easily flushed from the body and would be a good thing, an exactly opposite view of what it does from some other people. Everything I can find research wise in vivo is that there is a slight possibility of methylation. The indirect research, such as the form of the b12 being excreted in the urine being almost totally unchanged and 99% of total dose excreted unchanged in 2 days indicates that there is actually very little interaction. With something like cyanide, or glutathione that reacts almost instantly and strongly with all the mb12 availalble the changed b12 pours from the system very visibly in urine almost immediately. So whatever is going on if it is b12 and mercury is something that happens at the extreme low end of the scale equivalent to a tuna-fish sandwich. Whether it has a perceivable effect or not I can't say. For a reaction such as you had I would suspect that there are higher probability suspects.

So now we look at other possible contributions? In the "b-complex" in the infusion, is there folic acid? An IV infusion of a few hundred mcg of folic acid could have a lot more impact than an oral intake. I experienced enough of a hit with the Country Life Dibencozide with folic acid that I wondered if sublingual absorption could account for that kind of added impact. The methylfolate blocking activity of folic acid, however it comes by it, could cause week long cognitive worsening

About the bad effect, one problem I have with this 'surge' idea is that the downturn didn't really start in full until the next day. It wasn't immediate, and it seemed to really kick off after taking even more jarrow mb12 the next day. I also got no other symptoms from the IV, either of bodily fatigue or energy improvement.

My suspicion, after you have described this more is that the mb12 used for infusion was not an active mb12. Tell me about the IV container with this infusion. Was it opaque? Was it dark amb12 and/or with an opaque cover over it? Were the IV tubes opaque or very dark? How long did the IV take? The exposure to light per unit of surface area is about 10 times higher in a syringe as compared to the vial. Flowing down a clear-colorless IV tube is going to expose it to enough light that you had photolytically deteriorated mb12 which is in the direction of H2Ocbl and OHcbl equilibrium.

If the Jarrow was what kicked it off the next day that only makes sense if the mb12 was not effective as mb12 for either not so active mb12 crystals and/or photolytically broken down. The infusion of 5mg of fully active mb12 would have been perhaps twice the impact of a Jarrow 5mg.

Metafolin can be critical to absorption and usage of mb12. I've had a fair number of people that have said "Metafolin made the mb12 come alive".

but again I wouldn't expect such a delayed reaction like that, or for it to continue to linger almost a week later like it's doing, declining only very slowly.

That isn't characteristic of mb12. Symptoms typically start returning within 3 days of the last dose. But again that delayed result and lingering is characteristic of the paradoxical folate deficiency reaction.

Further, if you had glutathione within a year or maybe more previously I have noted that at least for some people the effect lingers. I need more Metafolin now than I did before the glutathione to have the same effectiveness with mb12.

I think you need to find out what was in the listed "b-complex" in the IV infusion. Also, a description of the bags and tubes or whatever.

 

[jeffrez]

Hi Fred - the IV bag and tubes were all standard clear IV tubes/bag, and the solution was a medium amber color. Now that you raise the issue of the materials, I think another possibility that I hadn't considered is that the reaction might have been to the IV plastics themselves.

I wasn't under the impression that the B-complex contained any folate, but I'm going to call and have that clarified today. The glutathione IVs were 5+ years ago, definitely not a factor here. thanks for the feedback.

edited:
Btw - one other symptom I've had since then that I think I forgot to mention is that ever since the IV my tongue feels kind of weirdly dry and "furry." Seems like some kind of toxic or detox symptom - it's more of an annoyance than anything (except what it might indicate, etc.). Seems to me I've had a similar feeling before, but I can't remember the circumstances. Wanted to mention that in case it rings any bells with anyone about what it might be.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fred - the IV bag and tubes were all standard clear IV tubes/bag, and the solution was a medium amber color. Now that you raise the issue of the materials, I think another possibility that I hadn't considered is that the reaction might have been to the IV plastics themselves.

I wasn't under the impression that the B-complex contained any folate, but I'm going to call and have that clarified today. The glutathione IVs were 5+ years ago, definitely not a factor here. thanks for the feedback.

edited:
Btw - one other symptom I've had since then that I think I forgot to mention is that ever since the IV my tongue feels kind of weirdly dry and "furry." Seems like some kind of toxic or detox symptom - it's more of an annoyance than anything (except what it might indicate, etc.). Seems to me I've had a similar feeling before, but I can't remember the circumstances. Wanted to mention that in case it rings any bells with anyone about what it might be.

Hi Mr Kite,

the IV bag and tubes were all standard clear IV tubes/bag, and the solution was a medium amber color. Now that you raise the issue of the materials, I think another possibility that I hadn't considered is that the reaction might have been to the IV plastics themselves.

Just being clear is problematic with some of the b-vitamin components as well as especially mb12. When I first started injecting mb12 I wondered why each month started out so well and became ineffective or worse over the first 10 days. By the 10th day I could feel the difference of a single 1mg sublingual despite the injection of 5mg/day. What a terrible waste of money and effort that was. I exposed the vial to less than 1 minute of room light per day. Whatever was in your IV you were not getting "good" mb12 coming out of the needle. We can be sure of that. When I get a dose of photolytically broken down mb12 my cell formation goes wrong and I have the rapid formation of acne type lesions in my scalp and face and spreading the longer it goes on, rapid development off skin problems and probably some other things too. It is very similar but not exactly the same as the folate deficiency symptoms.

The dry-furry tongue rings a bell but I can't quite place it.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fred - the IV bag and tubes were all standard clear IV tubes/bag, and the solution was a medium amber color. Now that you raise the issue of the materials, I think another possibility that I hadn't considered is that the reaction might have been to the IV plastics themselves.

I wasn't under the impression that the B-complex contained any folate, but I'm going to call and have that clarified today. The glutathione IVs were 5+ years ago, definitely not a factor here. thanks for the feedback.

edited:
Btw - one other symptom I've had since then that I think I forgot to mention is that ever since the IV my tongue feels kind of weirdly dry and "furry." Seems like some kind of toxic or detox symptom - it's more of an annoyance than anything (except what it might indicate, etc.). Seems to me I've had a similar feeling before, but I can't remember the circumstances. Wanted to mention that in case it rings any bells with anyone about what it might be.

Hi Mr Kite,

As one of those little coincidences, I got in the car to run some errands and on NPR's Fresh Air program was an author interview with the author of PLASTICS - A TOXIC LOVE STORY. The interview included a section on vinyl IV bags and tubes and the chemicals that leach from them into the contents and into people. Like a lot of other things the effects are showing up 20-40 years later. I don't know what it all means or if they could turn a tongue into furries.

 

[Shellbell]

Fred, Rich, Anyone,

What ratio is best for calcium and magnesium. I have read both 2:1 or 1:1. What ratios, dosages are being used for the b12 protocol?

Also type? Mag malate, mag glycinate or can I use both. I have tried mag citrate, but like what I read about the other two and thought about blending both.

I appreciate any info!

Thank you,
Shellbell

 

[oliwood]

Hi!

I have a question after starting part of Freddds protocol.

Since I'm still waiting for my other supplements to be shipped, I started on the first day in the morning with 5mg adb12 (without folic acid from vitabay.net. It seems too costly for shipping to the US, but since I live in Europe it's not a problem for me. Maybe it's the same as the Source Naturals just with another brand, because they distribute Source Natural products but not the adb12 from SN), Potassium (2x99mg); 4000mg Vitamin C, Omega 3 fishoil (750mg 2x), Magnesium (I don't use Zinc at the moment because I get nausea) and Vit E complex and the same on the next three days, except instead of 5mg I tried 10 mg adb12.

On the first day I really felt the energy level rising up. Even my aching muscles got better, which I didn't expect. I had a really good perception of my body (? don't know if you can say it this way in english?). This also was the case on the second day.

But on the third and fourth day symptoms like aching muscles slowly started again and I get noticeably tired in the afternoon. It's not that the tiredness feels bad. I don't know how to describe it properly. It's more like the tiredness every healthy person gets before going to sleep, I guess.
Is this due to lack of the other co-factors? Is it that I got a different sense for tiredness because of that two energized days? Or does this point to a specific deficiency?
Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Oliver

 

[richvank]

Fred, Rich, Anyone,

What ratio is best for calcium and magnesium. I have read both 2:1 or 1:1. What ratios, dosages are being used for the b12 protocol?

Also type? Mag malate, mag glycinate or can I use both. I have tried mag citrate, but like what I read about the other two and thought about blending both.

I appreciate any info!

Thank you,
Shellbell

Hi, Shellbell.

Generally, PWCs are found to be low in intracellular magnesium, so I would tend to go for the higher ratios of magnesium to calcium, like 1:1. For a normal, healthy person, the 2:1 ratio is appropriate, but PWCs need more Mg, in my opinion. Magnesium glycinate is the best absorbed form. Epsom salt baths (magnesium sulfate) are helpful for many, but not tolerated by some, I think because they have sulfate-reducing bacteria in the gut, which convert sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. Magnesium malate has been helpful for many, because it also supplies malate, used in the Krebs cycle. Dr. Cheney for years has used magnesium sulfate combined with taurine as an injection. The taurine counters the pain from the magnesium sulfate, and this gets magnesium into the blood in larger amounts.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Shellbell]

Rich, thank you so much. I just received my order for both the gylcinate and malate. I will try both. I have been taking citrate because it was in my mineral mix in a 2:1 ratio. So I added in the glycinate to boost it to 1:1 because I already had a bottle of it.

I also just read that calcium can stimulate the sympathetic nervous system, which I am trying to avoid. So I will do the 1:1.

How many mgs do you recommend of the cal/mag?

Thank you again,
Shellbell