B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

http://www.healthyawareness.com/articles/about-vitamins-minerals/about-vitamin-b12.aspx

"Hydroxocobalamin is easily converted to active but short-lived methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin as needed in the body. Hydroxocobalamin, the parent to other B-12 forms, provides better, long-lived B-12 action in the body."

Understanding this is as good for one as the ability to create MB12 and AB12 from the HB12.

You need to remember that for 1/3 of people taking hycbl it has no effect at all as shown in every research study. For all the rest it has very limited effect compared to use of the actual active forms. This is one of those statements that is based on 50 years of research on inactive cobalamins as vitamins but never actually comparing effectiveness side by side with the bugs worked out that make mb12 ineffective frequently. Not all mb12s are created equal, not even for injection, major differences by brand of sublinguals. So mb12 has it's own set of problems to be worked through but it is potentially 100x or more more effective than hycbl. It works faster on more symtpoms for more people. That is why it has such heavy duty startup symptoms for many people, all sorts of things starting to happen at once.

 

[Freddd]

That's just misleading (hopefully not intentionally). As I've told you plenty of times, I had hydroxy injections which cleared up my main symptoms of burning ankles and tingling in the limbs. Taking methyl after that didn't make any noticeable difference to anything that could be described as a neuropathy.

Mind you, I might turn out to have hyperparathyroidism and the resulting high calcium blood levels can cause nerve/muscle problems. In fact, I read that B6 can increase magnesium retention, resulting in a high magnesium / low calcium ratio leading to severe calcium deficiency, with symptoms such as insomnia, heart palpitations, chest pains, anxieties, depression, mood swings and joint / muscle pains, so it might be a good idea for anyone taking B6 long term to get their magnesium, calcium and parathyroid hormone levels checked.

Hi Doveman,

For almost everybody, and in research that has looked at that, mb12 has faster and more widespread effects on neuropathies including those diagnosed as idiopathic neuropathies, in more people. Of course you can always find a rare exception. You can also find people who use either a variety of mb12 that isn't effective for them or is deteriorated or whatever. I have found injectable mb12 from pharmacies, even always the same pharmacy, to be highly variable, depending upon light expsoure, something about the original batch of crystal and who knows what else. Lots of people who have been doing cycbl and hycbl for years remain unhealed and while they made some early progress neurologically , it tops out. To break through that topped out level of healing they often find that the two active b12s plus cofactors, espcially Metafolin, can work wonders comparatively.

In your particular situation there is no way of knowing why things worked or not the way they did. You don't appear inclined to perform a series of specific trials that might allow it to be "debugged" as it were to see exactly what variables make the difference and why things occurred as they did for you. You don't behave as if you actually want to pin it down and learn to maximize healing effect for yourself. While working through it step by step works for many people it doesn't work for everybody so some people remain an enigma.

You also appear to eagerly assume many things I say are a diversion or a mislead or something when you don't "get" what I am saying. Speaking to this subject I attempt to make each thing relevant. No mislead is intended in what I said here, no "red herring" elsewhere. I say somthing to illustrate "channel capacity" and you don't get that and consider it a red herring. Broaden your scope. Maybe I don't write as clearly as I might and that is my problem. But you appear to put a weird twist to things jumping to what to me seem pretty strange conclusions if I don't explicitly define everything from the start in each post. It's like you have no retention from post to post and don't remember any of the things I have posted addressed to you on many occasions. As brainfog is a frequent problem here maybe that is a demonstration of it. If it is, how can I help make explanations that stick from post to post so that everything doesn't have to include basic definition from the beginning? Or do I just take too manuy shortcuts? Do I need to be even longer winded, starting each post with Lombardy's "Gentlemen, this is a football" routine? The problem is that an entire 15k post could be taken up with basic definitional things. The "b12 deficiency" definition I am working on will span several 15k posts. Will that and 4 or 5 others like it need to be repeated with every post in order to be clear? Instead of projecting "misleading" or "red herring" intentions upon me you could say "What you meant isn't clear, can you explain it differently, or deeper, or something". Instead you project motives upon me that are not mine though they may be yours. It's this apparant characteristic of yours that caused me to question you previously as to whether you are engaging in a genuine dialog or playing intellectual games to score points of some kind.

I take this health business quite seriously. We are playing a real life game of "you bet your life". There are millions of people quite ill, lives destroyed and some dying because of semantic confusion about "b12 deficiency" thereby depriving them of the treatments that would work. Instead they are not even told that generally more effective therapies exist when the one they are trying doesn't work or doesn't work adequately. There are millions sick with mystery diseases that have no cure because the cause is caught up in semantic confusion around definitions. Within this context I do not use red herrings and misleads. I am trying to solve a genuine life and health threatenting problem so that millions may receive effective treatment, not play intellectual games scoring points in the air by trapping somebody in a mislead or distraction. So if you are not following something and I need to clarify or repeat something previously said, let me know. However, I'm not playing the type of game you appear to be looking for.

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, Im going back through this thread trying to catch up.

Could the stocking glove (or whatever its called) feeling be the same as the creepy like feeling I feel that can be around my ankles (and feet can feel like they are very wrong on the ottom.. like they cant feel teh ground right though no sensation in them like creeipes). The same as the creepy like feeling that is in my arms and can be all in my upper back? Sometimes it feels very deep in the muscles and other times it is like a gloving feeling I guess.. so difficult to define these symptoms.

The glut issue... the glut combines with the Mb12 and converts in backward to the gluta... >> form that hydroxy becomes when it combines with glut as it is supposed to?

I cannot ignore how the myers took all this away and then it came back. Including the puppet feeling as well as gait issues. I think myers has 5 mg Mb12. This was only once a month but I felt like I needed more.

Hi Soulfeast,

Could the stocking glove (or whatever its called) feeling be the same as the creepy like feeling I feel that can be around my ankles (and feet can feel like they are very wrong on the ottom.. like they cant feel teh ground right though no sensation in them like creeipes). The same as the creepy like feeling that is in my arms and can be all in my upper back? Sometimes it feels very deep in the muscles and other times it is like a gloving feeling I guess.. so difficult to define these symptoms.

Stocking-glove neuropathies are described as such because they may start at a specific place on the arm or leg and go outwards from there, covering an area covered by a glove or a stocking in roughly that configuation. At the end of the 19th century Freud and some of his early contemporaries decided that these stocking-glove neuropathies such as "glove anesthesia" as one form was called were evidence of "conversion disorder" and hence is the origin of much of the "It's All In Your Head" diagnosis so many of us have had. In actuallity, 60 years after that theory was advance vitamin b12 was discovered and 20 or 30 years after that peripheral neuropathies were found to be caused by b12 deficiency with that "stocking-glove" characteristic.

The many sensations involved with these neuropathies might range from the feel of spider webs or threads brushing along the feet, or tinglings or zaps or pains or numbness or hypersensitivity or changed feelings all come under the heading of "paresthesias". Sensory neuropathies can cause paresthesias all over the body. When it happens purely in the brain they may manifest as hallucinations of smells and tastes, sensations of many kinds, visual hallucinations, auditory hallucinations. These are all "noise" in the sense that they don't represent real signals but signals caused by damage and malfunction, like static on the phone line or echos or whatever artifacts of the phone service now exists.

These may originate in the peripheral nerves and/or may originate in the spinal nerves or brain. Small doses of b12 may heal the things happening in the peripheral nerves but larger doses are generally needed to heal the spinal or brain based problems (subacute combined degeneration).

My feet for instance had skin sensory problems that largely healed with small doses near the beginning of treatment. The numbness of the muscles continued to get worse unabated for years until I got up to a large enough mb12 injection level to reverse them.


The glut issue... the glut combines with the Mb12 and converts in backward to the gluta... >> form that hydroxy becomes when it combines with glut as it is supposed to?

Glutasthione combines with any of the cobalamins into glutathionylcobalamin. If a person is unable to convert gkutathionylcobalaqmin back to the active forms becasue they lack the enzyme then it suceeds in inactivating 100% of the cobalamin so exposed. If a person has normal amounts of the enzymes they may have 5 mg of mb12 in circulation converted to glutathionylcoblamain and thereby inactivated and have 10 mcg converted back into mb12 thereby reducing the active b12 in their system 99.8%. This then disables all healing caused by having the unbound active b12 available for use wherever needed. Since the damahge in my spinal nerves doesn't heal or improve in any waty without large quantities of free mb12, a reduction of 100% or a reduxction of 99.8% amounts to the same thing as all I need to stop healing is a reduction of 10%. Hycbl also can be converted to glutathionylcobalamin but there it is just one inactive version instead of another and doesn't make any real difference.

For me an even faster and more severe effect was inducing instant hard methylfolate deficiency, the worst folate deficiency I had ever had, and starting in a couple of hours. Gltathione appears to be a potent methylfolate antagonist.

 

[soulfeast]

The difference is, if hycbl diffuses into cells in excess of the amount of enzymes needed to convert it to one of the two active forms at best it doesn't do anything as it is inactive in and of itself. At worst it hinders the diffusion of the active b12s into the cell by reducing the gradiant. On the other hand if adb12 or mb12 diffuses into cells it can be used immediately unchanged if there is any need for it. Many people have noticed the differerences in startup/onset effects between hycbl and mb12/adb12

Freddd, is this the same for folic acid in the PGA form (folic acid supplement)? The cells take in any B12 or any FA but once any is in, the level allowed to come into the cells is then lowered.. thus more inactive forms can block more active forms? Sorry to sound dense.

Your explanantion of how the body works with us with B12 for as long as we are (kind of blunt to say) evolutionary relevant makes sense. I crashed after bearing two children in my mid to late thirties. All started around age 43 with vague but troublesome symptoms.

I have felt better on the MB12,but I say that with caution because Ive said this before with other therapies. I have had jumps in BP and pulse, which are not uncommon for me. I am taking 3-4mg methyl a day with 4.3 adenyl.

Also some swishy head moments that remind me of the symptoms I had after my last glut then myers respectively. Each on left me very loose in the head.. must have been a detox reaction.

 

[soulfeast]

Thank you, Freddd, for all the information. I appreciate all that you are sharing here. You certainly do not have to!!

I have not had a framework of language or preception other than "the creepies" to put these starnge symptoms in. Maybe it is the stocking-glove. The symptoms can change from one sensation to another, but they are always creepy feeling, in patches that may well expand. I dont think of them other than driving me insane.

You are right.. first dose did help and subsequent dosing seems to help. If MB12 is going to be the cure here, then it looks like it means I need to find my dose and keep it several times a day and then look to see if I need deeper level healing, which I probably do, with more intense dosing if I can tolerate it.

I read you had BP issues when you first started. Did you find pulse issues as well and autonomic nervouse system issues (pulse and BP unstable, up then down)?

 

[soulfeast]

http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...yl-B12-Methylation-Protocol&p=76013#post76013

Thread I started linked above for specific responses to this info.

http://www.hbot4u.com/autismdoc2.pdf

Methyl-B12: Doing It Right! Methylcobalamin Update, James A. Neubrander

Freddd, I think you posted this link. It is very interesting. Neubrander has a diff take on methylation than Yasko. He also warns against using TMG which I think you use in your protocol? Not sure. he talks about MB12 dependency.. as if one needs it like a drug not as if one is deficient and will make that deficiency up over time, though he does say that some autistic children can either come off or down on dosing after 4 years. Realizing this is specifice to autistic children, but so has been yaskos protocol for the most part.


http://www.hbot4u.com/autismdoc2.pdf


Because the brain is only one part of the
total body, it is important to understand that when the body as a whole perceives
the need to create more methionine by adding a methyl group to homocysteine, it
can do so by accepting a methyl group from methyl-B12 or by accepting one of the
methyl groups from trimethylglycine (TMG). [Homocysteine + one methyl group
(either from methyl-B12 or TMG)  methionine  SAM  homocysteine 
repeat the cycle] Remember, it is the body’s purpose is to always create
equilibrium. Therefore, when BHMT enzyme activity is upregulated by TMG
stimulation to produce more methionine, the counterbalancing effect to
maintain equilibrium by not overproducing too much methionine is for
methionine synthase enzyme activity to be downregulated. Because the cortex
of the brain, at least for children on the autistic spectrum, needs large amounts
of methionine synthase enzyme activity to produce cognition, language,
socialization, etc., anything that decreases its activity in the body also decreases
its activity in the brain. Our clinic has repeatedly documented (with rare
exception) that the use of TMG blocks the desired effects of methyl-B12:

 

[doveman]

Hi Freddd

There is some suggestion it can bind with unbound cobalamins in the blood but I am not sure that is substantiated.

we have 10-30mcg of stripped cobalamin being converted via enzymes (of limited supply) to the two active cobalamins as needed, adb12 or mb12.

My, you do like to waffle don't you. Out of the 6 paragraphs you wrote in response to my simple point, only the parts I've quoted above are relevant to the discussion of how much of a hydroxy injection converts to mb12/adb12.

As you don't think that TC can bind with cobalamins in the blood and that injected or sublingual B12 only enters the cells via diffusion, the capacity of TC2 is irrelevant. The only question is how much of the hydroxy converts to the active co-enzymes in the cell. You say 10-30mcg. Do you have a source for this?

The difference is, if hycbl diffuses into cells in excess of the amount of enzymes needed to convert it to one of the two active forms at best it doesn't do anything as it is inactive in and of itself. At worst it hinders the diffusion of the active b12s into the cell by reducing the gradiant. On the other hand if adb12 or mb12 diffuses into cells it can be used immediately unchanged if there is any need for it. Many people have noticed the differerences in startup/onset effects between hycbl and mb12/adb12

So the answer to my question "Do you have some reason to think that methyl has some additional way of getting into cells other than via TC, that doesn't apply to hydroxy?" is "No, but once in the cells hydroxy has to be converted whereas mb12/adb12 can be used as is".

Could you explain what these enzymes needed to convert hydroxy are and where we get them from?

 

[doveman]

Hi soulfeast

Because the brain is only one part of the
total body, it is important to understand that when the body as a whole perceives
the need to create more methionine by adding a methyl group to homocysteine, it
can do so by accepting a methyl group from methyl-B12 or by accepting one of the
methyl groups from trimethylglycine (TMG). [Homocysteine + one methyl group
(either from methyl-B12 or TMG)  methionine  SAM  homocysteine 
repeat the cycle] Remember, it is the bodys purpose is to always create
equilibrium. Therefore, when BHMT enzyme activity is upregulated by TMG
stimulation to produce more methionine, the counterbalancing effect to
maintain equilibrium by not overproducing too much methionine is for
methionine synthase enzyme activity to be downregulated. Because the cortex
of the brain, at least for children on the autistic spectrum, needs large amounts
of methionine synthase enzyme activity to produce cognition, language,
socialization, etc., anything that decreases its activity in the body also decreases
its activity in the brain. Our clinic has repeatedly documented (with rare
exception) that the use of TMG blocks the desired effects of methyl-B12:

This just confuses me. If the body needs methyl from either methylB12 or TMG to convert homocysteine to methionine, why should taking TMG be any different to taking methylB12?

Or to put it another way, if methyl-B12's only function is to give provide methyl to convert homocysteine, and TMG is providing that methyl instead, what function of methylB12 could be being blocked?

This part is particularly confusing "Therefore, when BHMT enzyme activity is upregulated by TMG
stimulation to produce more methionine, the counterbalancing effect to maintain equilibrium by not overproducing too much methionine is for methionine synthase enzyme activity to be downregulated.", because it seems to be arguing that TMG is bad because it leads to the production of more methionine, but that's exactly what methylB12 does.

I'm sure there's a good reason, but if methylB12's only function is to provide methyl, why can't we just get that from methylfolate?

 

[doveman]

You can also find people who use either a variety of mb12 that isn't effective for them or is deteriorated or whatever.

I'm using the 5-star brands you recommend.

You don't appear inclined to perform a series of specific trials that might allow it to be "debugged" as it were to see exactly what variables make the difference and why things occurred as they did for you. You don't behave as if you actually want to pin it down and learn to maximize healing effect for yourself.

I feel I've trialed enough to establish that hydroxy on it's own has beneficial effects for me that the combination of Jarrow MB12, Adb12, methylfolate and B-Right doesn't.

You also appear to eagerly assume many things I say are a diversion or a mislead or something when you don't "get" what I am saying. Speaking to this subject I attempt to make each thing relevant. No mislead is intended in what I said here, no "red herring" elsewhere. I say somthing to illustrate "channel capacity" and you don't get that and consider it a red herring. Broaden your scope. Maybe I don't write as clearly as I might and that is my problem. But you appear to put a weird twist to things jumping to what to me seem pretty strange conclusions if I don't explicitly define everything from the start in each post. It's like you have no retention from post to post and don't remember any of the things I have posted addressed to you on many occasions. As brainfog is a frequent problem here maybe that is a demonstration of it. If it is, how can I help make explanations that stick from post to post so that everything doesn't have to include basic definition from the beginning? Or do I just take too manuy shortcuts? Do I need to be even longer winded, starting each post with Lombardy's "Gentlemen, this is a football" routine? The problem is that an entire 15k post could be taken up with basic definitional things. The "b12 deficiency" definition I am working on will span several 15k posts. Will that and 4 or 5 others like it need to be repeated with every post in order to be clear? Instead of projecting "misleading" or "red herring" intentions upon me you could say "What you meant isn't clear, can you explain it differently, or deeper, or something". Instead you project motives upon me that are not mine though they may be yours. It's this apparant characteristic of yours that caused me to question you previously as to whether you are engaging in a genuine dialog or playing intellectual games to score points of some kind.

I just call 'em as I see 'em, and if it appears to me that something you've posted is misleading, irrelevant or incorrect I'll say so. I don't think it's a case of me not "getting" what you're saying or it not being clear. If you've written something you didn't mean to, that's hardly my fault and I can't be expected to ask you every time you post if you meant what you said.

I probably do have trouble remembering previous posts, but it's laughable that you should ask whether you need to be more verbose when I feel the problem is you already write too long-winded replies, of which only a small part actually addresses the question or point at hand and the rest is unsolicited repetition of already established theories or irrelevant details.

 

[soulfeast]

Hi soulfeast



This just confuses me. If the body needs methyl from either methylB12 or TMG to convert homocysteine to methionine, why should taking TMG be any different to taking methylB12?

Or to put it another way, if methyl-B12's only function is to give provide methyl to convert homocysteine, and TMG is providing that methyl instead, what function of methylB12 could be being blocked?

This part is particularly confusing "Therefore, when BHMT enzyme activity is upregulated by TMG
stimulation to produce more methionine, the counterbalancing effect to maintain equilibrium by not overproducing too much methionine is for methionine synthase enzyme activity to be downregulated.", because it seems to be arguing that TMG is bad because it leads to the production of more methionine, but that's exactly what methylB12 does.

I'm sure there's a good reason, but if methylB12's only function is to provide methyl, why can't we just get that from methylfolate?

Neubrander is talking about a MB12 dependency where the cells in the brain (autistic children) need a continual supply of B12. He is saying that when you upregulate the BHMT pathway, you possibly downregulated the methionine synthase pathway. TMG supplies the BHMT pathway. Yasko does not prefer the BHMT pathway, but she does supplement it with low doses of TMG and phos serine.

I am wondering about the methionine production because I am low in both methionine and homocysteine, which Neubrander seems to indicate is common with autistic children. Looks like he prefers not to use TMG because it might downregulate methionine synthase.. when MB12 can do the same thing as the TMG in regard to methlating homocysteine into methionine. He also does support nutrional support of methionine but seems wary of going too far with it. He prefers to "blow" on the cycle with MB12 and get the wheels turning and doing their proper thing.

It seems that inactive forms of B12 get their methyl group from methyl folate. So you can depending on how well your body does and your need for instance and or continual B12?

Is MB12s only function to give a methyl group to homocysteine? Is it only particpating in the methylation cycle.. is this how it performs all the functions it performs via its role in methylation? Nerve damage from lack of sufficient B12 is a result of a messed up methylation cycle?

MB12 is the most direct route and he doesnt seem to keen on hydroxy just because one is an overmethylator. I am not sure if that is COMT++ or COMT-- but her was referrring to folks who have been told per genetic tests they cannot tolerate MB12 well and need HB12 instead. Since methyl folate is needed to make MB12 (if he is correct) then makes me wonder for folks using hydroxy when one knows when one has enough methyl folate intake.

 

[soulfeast]

This is another good article to delve into. More info on TMG as per Neubrander:

http://www.drneubrander.com/Files/Methyl-B12; Myth, Masterpiece, or Miracle.pdf

Another time to add TMG after the maximum saturation state of the methyl-B12 system has been achieved and clinical benefits are not being realized or are being realized at a very mild level is when the question of adequate enzyme activity arises. Because the methionine synthase and betaine homocysteine methyltransferase enzyme systems are also limiting factors to the homocysteine reaction, should methionine synthase be inadequate or “damaged”, the addition of TMG may be able to add additional methyl groups to the methyl pool homocysteine still requires. However, the clinical challenge is to first systematically saturate the methyl-B12 system without causing significantly increased side effects and while objectively noting that increased clinical benefits are no longer forthcoming. Only after that set of clinical trials has been satisfactorily answered is it advised to try a 5-week TMG clinical trial. As with methyl-B12, the TMG clinical trial should allow no other concurrent changes to be made and the improvements or side effects should be evaluated by using the Parent Designed Report Form in the same manner it was used for methyl-B12.

 

[winston]

Hi Freddd, yesterday I started the L Carnintine Fumurate by Jarrow, I took it 30 minutes before breakfast. No difference in how I felt. Today took it the same way and today more tired than usual. Could this be start-up, and if so how long can this last? I have reached a plateau with the B12 protocol but still tire easily or sometimes just tired. Not the lay you flat fatigue but just tired. The dose I am on currently is:

all basic supplements
2 B-Right
1 adb12
3 mb12 (5 mg)
1 Metafolin

Thanks for all your help.

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd, yesterday I started the L Carnintine Fumurate by Jarrow, I took it 30 minutes before breakfast. No difference in how I felt. Today took it the same way and today more tired than usual. Could this be start-up, and if so how long can this last? I have reached a plateau with the B12 protocol but still tire easily or sometimes just tired. Not the lay you flat fatigue but just tired. The dose I am on currently is:

all basic supplements
2 B-Right
1 adb12
3 mb12 (5 mg)
1 Metafolin

Thanks for all your help.

Lena

Hi Lena,

You may need some of the basics such as magnesium and calcium or A & D. It might pay to order 3 or 4 different brands and varieties of l-carnitine to see if one works noticably better than another. Remember, I was a vegetarian and hence not getting the carnitine in my food when I started it. It doesn't make the same magnitude of difference now that I eat meat again but it does make a noticable diference.

Alpha Lipoic acid assists the carnitine and might make a difference. SAM-e might make the difference that switches things on. TMG might make a difference. Remember, it is COMBINATIONS of these critical cofactors that are important and might start things working for any specific person as each person may have their own set of peculiarities. It might take ALL of them. And there is always the possiblity that you need it an hour before breakfast because of your own specific stomach situation. Some amount of experimentation here might help. This can get complicated but sticking with a simplified program won't get at things.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Everybody,

I just want to say that some basic testing and screening can be extremely valuable. I had a colonoscopy a couple of weeks ago. A small polyp was found and removed, one of the kind that can become cancerous over the years. My biological mother had colon cancer and her father had b12 deficiencies and MS. Just because we find a repairable cause for some of our problems does not mean we can't have other things going on. While this may or may not have grown or become cancerous in the future, it can't become cancerous now and may have ended up saving my life and a lot of unpleasantness prior to death to have this proceure, which is no big deal. Massive laxitives for 16 hours is more unpleasant than the procedure itself. It is my first and only experience in a lifetime with laxitives and now in case I am ever curious I know what 14 doses of Miralax in Gatoraide in 12 hours does. It's going to take me a few years before I can contemplate such a Gatoraide cocktail again.

 

[soulfeast]

Help Freddd! I have been taking all cofactors and supports except ALA. Small doses of TMG in my yasko multi. When I took the first 1 mg jarrow M12 my creepies when away. Then as well with subsequent dosing at 4 a day. I am also taking 1/4 a Source Naturals adenyl B12 which is close to 3 mg. I am seeing what might be a trend. By early evening, my head is swimming, brainfog (which I usually do not have consistantly) speech can be a little off, creepies are back though not as intense and I have some gait and balance issues. Zippy zappy feelings. Some tremors.

I am wondering if this a detox reaction or a sharp fall off in MB12 levels? Hopefully not a methymercury issue. Last night it cleared so thinking not the latter. I just took another 1 mg. My last dose was 4 hours ago and wondering if I need more or need to dose every three hours?

This is really something to see these neuro symptoms come and go like this. Its like a light switch turning on and off. I started having more energy when I added in 500mg methionine while still on BH12. I think I have even more on the 4mg MB12 and 3mg AB12. I feel pretty good! Until the drop, detox or whatever this is.

My head feels a bit scary. Its like my brain is going to switch off.. unstable. This did happen last night and went away eventually.

Thanks so much.

 

[soulfeast]

Do we use more B12 while awake and active than while sleeping?

Good for you Freddd... glad all went well.

 

[winston]

Hi Freddd, The l-carnitine fumurate I tried on Sunday and Monday I believe the symptoms I was having were start-up. I could tell when I stopped them after two days it was the same as getting off the methly12 but not quite the intensity. The shaky leg came back slightly and so did the tremors, aches and even brainfog and a little nausea. The same old routine of start-up. My body again is telling me this is what you need! I don't have time to post more I am on my way, a 5 1/2 drive to San Diego, I am at 70% well and decided I want 90% so when convenient to be unwell I will start the critical cofactors. By the way 5 months ago I could not drive to the grocery store so I have made much progress. Thanks again.

Lena

 

[Freddd]

Do we use more B12 while awake and active than while sleeping?

Good for you Freddd... glad all went well.

Hi Soulfeast,

Good question. I don't know. Let's consider the factors, adb12 is not "used up" in the mitochondria. It acts like a catalyst and sits there indefinitely so evercise doesn't use it up as such. On the other hand methylb12 is made inactive by donating the methyl group for DNA replication and other uses. Some of it is recycled into active mb12 again. Some is cleared to the liver via HTC3 and some is excreted by the kidneys. So if cell reproduction happens more at night then perhaps more b12 is used at night. However, as there are lots of other uses, I just can't give you a clear answer. In any case the amount depleted daily is in the few mcg range and is inconsequential compared to even a very modest vitamin input. It appears to be deficiency damage that requires larger amounts to maintained for healing or functionality. Preventing deficiency in the first place probably requires far far less b12 than repairing damage after the fact.

 

[Freddd]

I am now more than a year post glutathione trial. Despite increased doses of potassium, mb12 and Metafolin, my MCV has gone up from 96 to 100.2 and my MCH has gone up correspondingly and MPV has gone down and my potassium is the lowest it has ever been. Does anybody have any ideas? ALl this in the past year. My doc is puzzled.

 

[Sunday]

Lena, it's so great to hear about your progress, you have definitely pulled ahead at 70% and are inspiring me to keep on fiddling.

I originally arrived here to report that I tried the Enzymatic Therapy mb12 this morning (I'd only been taking the Jarrow) and noticed a distinct difference. Smoother, more refined, and one 5mg dose (since I have to stuff five in my mouth for that, I thought I'd start that way, with the other 10mg by Jarrow taken later. I'm wondering now if I use the Enzymatic Therapy brand, if I can reduce my dosage because at least on this one trial, it feels more effective to me. "I feel just like a person," I found myself saying, after only 5mg of the ET mb12. A weak person, but I'll settle for person. And even my weakness seems better.

Of course I can't ignore other variables, such as the fact that I just re-upped my methylfolate dosage for a total of 3200 mg/day, and I got my usual 10-day startup ordeal, although I will say the quality of my startup has improved, much less full whiteout and the nausea was mostly just in the form of lack of appetite. Something else I am tinkering with is taking more mb12 in the afternoon, after my morning dose wears off. This plays a little hob with getting to sleep, but since my sleep is something that has improved a lot with the b12s, acupuncture, improved sleep routines, and better sleeping conditions, I figure I can use some of the same tactics to work my way back to earlier and longer sleep while taking the afternoon mb12s. We'll see.

Adding ubiquinone to my morning and evening doses seems to be making a serious difference. I'm trying doses like 100 and 200 mg a pop. My heart doesn't go so crazy and it seems to me my energy level goes up and my brain fog down. I recently ran out and was kind of experimenting to see how much difference I'd notice. It may be obscured by all the other variables (new mb12, upping the methylfolate, spring tides, whatever), but yeah. There's a big difference for me adding that.

On the other hand I have noticed no difference between l-carnitine-fumurate and acetyl-l-carnitine, so I'm thinking I might settle for the cheaper acetyl-l-carnitine. On the third hand, reading your advice to Lena, Freddd, I'm thinking maybe this is an area I could fine-tune also, experimenting with brands as well as types. Another project for another day.

I have reached my 6-month assessment point on this protocol, and while I am nowhere near 70% - nearer to 40 or 50 - I intend to continue with it.I appreciate others' straight reports of what goes on for them, because now my brainfog is lessening (thanks to the b12s and acupuncture and also it seems to me ubiquinone), I'm more able to tinker with this protocol. I still have bad OI. I still have bad PEM. I still have brainfog: not as much, but it's still hard for me to do analytical/intellectual stuff without feeling as if I'm bleeding out the ears (borrowed expression from Koan, very apt). My neuropathies have definitely improved and keep improving, as does the brainfog. Encouraged by all of you, I'm just going to keep upping my dosage and tinkering with this protocol and see where I can get. (I'm combining it with Chinese herbs and acupuncture these days). Thanks to Freddd and all of you who are contributing useful information in this big unwieldy experiment we are all working on.

And Lena, I'm tickled that you are now driving yourself to the grocery store! Remember when it was an ordeal just for your husband to take you to dinner?