B-12 - The Hidden Story

[DrD]

Hi Fredd, this is Lena again trying to figure out how I can do the B12 protocol. I have been off all Bs for 10 days and I am horrible. I need to take xananx every 2 hours for the shaking legs and severe anxiety. The severe fatigue has come back a few days ago. This morning in desperation I took a B-right and by afternoon I had a little nausea. I am trying to figure this out because when I started the protocol the first of September I had no symptoms of nausea for 6 weeks only until I was on three adb12 did I start to detox and the nausea started and only stopped when I quit all Bs. I am so sure that my problem is a B12 deficiency but the nausea is severe. Does any one have any ideas for me I can't live like this. Dr. started me on Zoloft due to depression, did not have any depression while on B12. Dr. started me on sleeping pills, was starting to sleep 5 hours at a time when on B12. What am I going to do? HELP HELP.

Lena

hi Lena/winston,

I know that you directed your question to Freddd, but I just wanted to give you some encouragement. I don't know about what kind of detox you are going through, but I can only say that the first 6-8 weeks of startup for me were terrible as well. Sometimes you just have to plough through with the hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel. My startup symptoms were severe anxiety, night sweets that were unbelievable, night terrors, feeling intermittently off balance/off center, a horrible sense of complete detachment, and of course periodic nausea. I had to work throughout the ordeal as well. I did have to go home one time due to the severe nausea. Most, if not all of these startup symptoms are gone (knock on wood), and I have reached an equilibrium. What Freddd and Kevin states are true. Our bodies are so tremendously out of whack, and when we supplement the delta is very very disturbing to our senses and the way we feel. Could you let me know how long you stuck with the program and how much mb12 and adb12 you got up to prior to quiting the program? It took me months to acclimate.....

I don't know much about adrenal dysfunction, and if you do have adrenal issues, please take what I am saying in the proper context.


best wishes.

 

[winston]

B12 - Dr D

Dr D thank you for your encouragement. I started the B12 protocol first of Sept. and started with B-right and after 4 four days upped it to two B-right. No problems. Started the adb12 with no problems. Next week started 1/4 of 5 mg mb12 with some depression and anxiety but not severe. I upped the mb12 gradually in a month up to 3 mb12 then on a Tuesday upped the adb12 to 2 pills and on Wednesday upped the adb12 to 3 pills. I was improving so much some say a honeymoon start. Then that Thursday I felt really sick and by Friday felt like severe detox. After several day the nausea was so bad I quit all Bs. Three days later I am feeling like withdrawal so bad, shaking legs and panic, I put a mb12 under my lip and within one hour it subsided and I went back on the B's but this time with severe nausea and three hours after taking the mb12 my legs would shake uncontrollably. Stopped a week later same thing happens, withdrawal and I start again with severe nausea and shaking legs. It has been 11 days since being off the Bs and my body is out of control with shaking and anxiety and severe depression. Right now I am really scared and not wanting to live. I had very little depression on the B's in fact I was so happy. What Should I do? Never start again. Someone please help me. I was put on Zoloft and I eat xanax all day long and am sure will be addicted othewise I might not make it at all. Does it sound like I need B12 or it is too much for me. Very confused. Please help me.

Lena

 

[DrD]

Dr D thank you for your encouragement. I started the B12 protocol first of Sept. and started with B-right and after 4 four days upped it to two B-right. No problems. Started the adb12 with no problems. Next week started 1/4 of 5 mg mb12 with some depression and anxiety but not severe. I upped the mb12 gradually in a month up to 3 mb12 then on a Tuesday upped the adb12 to 2 pills and on Wednesday upped the adb12 to 3 pills. I was improving so much some say a honeymoon start. Then that Thursday I felt really sick and by Friday felt like severe detox. After several day the nausea was so bad I quit all Bs. Three days later I am feeling like withdrawal so bad, shaking legs and panic, I put a mb12 under my lip and within one hour it subsided and I went back on the B's but this time with severe nausea and three hours after taking the mb12 my legs would shake uncontrollably. Stopped a week later same thing happens, withdrawal and I start again with severe nausea and shaking legs. It has been 11 days since being off the Bs and my body is out of control with shaking and anxiety and severe depression. Right now I am really scared and not wanting to live. I had very little depression on the B's in fact I was so happy. What Should I do? Never start again. Someone please help me. I was put on Zoloft and I eat xanax all day long and am sure will be addicted othewise I might not make it at all. Does it sound like I need B12 or it is too much for me. Very confused. Please help me.

Lena

hi Lena, Your depression is severe. Can you possibly go see a Doctor today to address that issue. I am not a Medical Doctor and it looks like the Zoloft and xanax is adding a secondary factor to the situation, for which I know nothing about. I had leg tremors during my deficiency, but that aspect of my neuro actually improved during startup period of my treatment protocol.

I cannot stress how important it is for you to see a medical professional at this point given the severe anxiety and depression. Please do so immediately. Once that is under control we can address the b12 treatment protocol. Is there a family member that you can contact to help you out with this as soon as possible.?

 

[jenbooks]

Lena maybe you have heavy metal toxicity like Dreambirdie did. Also maybe you need very tiny amounts as some people take only 1/256th of a pill to start. Did you get blood levels of all electrolytes checked? Don't worry about Xanax addiction, you can taper off later.

 

[winston]

B12 DrD

DrD, I am OK. I had gone to the Dr. on Wednesday and he gave me a new prescription for Oxazepam for sleep. Took it only one night, Thursday. Checked the side effects and there it was mental/mood changes. Today I am better.

Lena

 

[dmholmes]

Lena, it sounds like you just went too far too fast. I would take it much more gradual and not go so high on the dosage until you feel that you need it. You may only need 2 mb12, 1 adb12, and 1 B-Right for example.

To all, I went up to 1600mcg of methylfolate about a week ago and it made a huge difference for me. I've had more energy, able to exercise longer, and required less sleep since then despite having folate levels in range on my methylation pathways panel. I take 1 in morning and 1 in the afternoon, right before my mb12 (2 also). Still on 1/2 B-Right.

 

[Sunday]

Lena, I agree with others that you may have just pushed yourself too fast on this protocol. I know what that's like, because I tried not to, but when I started getting hints of getting better with the B vitamins I think that made me push it a little. This illness is really teaching me patience; a little progress rather than striving for big sudden gains. I think the adrenal support advice is also good, and maybe you could find ways to address the anxiety that don't involve drugs. (There are so many ways to do this I'm not even going to start a list - but PM me if you're interested in suggestions. I think the thing is to work out the stuff you find easiest and most enjoyable.) I'm not saying to get off the drugs, just to learn alternate routes to relaxing, so you have more of a sense of being able to navigate your life. Then later when you're ready to get off the drugs, you'd have good coping strategies already in place.

DrD, thanks for the report on your symptoms, that gives me hope. I'm about 6 weeks into this and coming out (I hope) of a huge crash that's been going on for almost 2 weeks. It'd be nice to think this might lighten up, although I won't know until I up my mb12 dosage again. I think for the holidays I'm just going to start the l-carnitine fumarate and leave the b12 stable until the travel and bustle are all over.

David, congrats on your success with methylfolate, and thanks for reporting it. It gives me ideas of things to fiddle with, when I start fine-tuning this. I hadn't thought of increasing methyfolate again, but it might be worth a try later on.

 

[Freddd]

Lena, it sounds like you just went too far too fast. I would take it much more gradual and not go so high on the dosage until you feel that you need it. You may only need 2 mb12, 1 adb12, and 1 B-Right for example.

To all, I went up to 1600mcg of methylfolate about a week ago and it made a huge difference for me. I've had more energy, able to exercise longer, and required less sleep since then despite having folate levels in range on my methylation pathways panel. I take 1 in morning and 1 in the afternoon, right before my mb12 (2 also). Still on 1/2 B-Right.

Hi David,

I just want to mention that others have made similar remarks about methylfolate, that results on tests putting them in the "normal" range is not predictive of results or lack there of.

Keep in mind that all these "normal" results are based on inactive b12s and inactive folate; that is to say cyanob12 or hydroxyb12 and folic acid. Nobody has any iodea what "normal levels" are for folks on active b12 and active folate.

 

[Suzy]

Freddd

Hi Freddd,

I'm just starting supplementation using rich's protocal but incorporating some of your ideas, like the supporting nutrients (b complex, a,c, etc.)

One issue I have is SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth).

I know folate deficiency can result in decreased enzyme activity in the gut.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6794338

And I do have markers of reduced active folate:

FIGLU 22 (normal <= 9)
sarcosine 7 (normal <=5)
Low WBC count
Low RBC count


Have you seen anyone with IBS, or other gut problems clear up when active B12/folate deficiencies were addressed ?

This isn't my worst symptom, but it's kind of hard when you're digesting/absorbing properly.

 

[dmholmes]

Hi David,

I just want to mention that others have made similar remarks about methylfolate, that results on tests putting them in the "normal" range is not predictive of results or lack there of.

Keep in mind that all these "normal" results are based on inactive b12s and inactive folate; that is to say cyanob12 or hydroxyb12 and folic acid. Nobody has any iodea what "normal levels" are for folks on active b12 and active folate.

Yep, I'm onboard with that. And also the methylation panel was run before I started supplementing, so my folate needs may have increased as my B12 intake increased.

Do you think it would be beneficial to try more than 1600mcg methylfolate?

 

[dmholmes]

Fred, what do you think of this B complex that I mentioned on WD? It has methylfolate instead of folic acid.

 

[Freddd]

Fred, what do you think of this B complex that I mentioned on WD? It has methylfolate instead of folic acid.

Hi David,

I find it puzzling that they list "folic acid" as methylfolate, so which is it? And the choline is not microencapsulated which may lead to stomach upset and b-burps. The dosages of the various items is very different possibly leading to different results so keep track of changes you notice. It does lack p-5-p which might make a diffrerence for you, or might not. It's good to see the methylfolate if that is really what is there. The label is quite unclear and contradictory.

 

[Freddd]

Yep, I'm onboard with that. And also the methylation panel was run before I started supplementing, so my folate needs may have increased as my B12 intake increased.

Do you think it would be beneficial to try more than 1600mcg methylfolate?

Hi David,

The only way you will know if it makes a difference is to do severel alternating trials each way and see if there is a difference. The effects of more folate are quite clear within a few days if it is doing anything noticable.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,

I'm just starting supplementation using rich's protocal but incorporating some of your ideas, like the supporting nutrients (b complex, a,c, etc.)

One issue I have is SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth).

I know folate deficiency can result in decreased enzyme activity in the gut.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6794338

And I do have markers of reduced active folate:

FIGLU 22 (normal <= 9)
sarcosine 7 (normal <=5)
Low WBC count
Low RBC count


Have you seen anyone with IBS, or other gut problems clear up when active B12/folate deficiencies were addressed ?

This isn't my worst symptom, but it's kind of hard when you're digesting/absorbing properly.

Hi Suzy,

I used to have IBS, for decades. It's gone now. I used to have all kinds of food sensitivities and now only dairy remains. Eliminating dairy and taking mb12 allowed the IBS to heal fully. It just totally isn't a problem any more for me. It cleared up at a pace with the rest of my epithelial problems; skin, mucous membranes, stomach, continuous nausea etc.

 

[_Kim_]

Day 9 of active B12s

Hey B12 gang. I've developed a localized sensitivity to the B12s. It makes my gums hurt. This feels like neuropathic pain and is most acute when the B12s are in my mouth. There are some places between my cheek and gums where I can no longer place the pills there for more than a few seconds. I have alternated locations and currently can only use the lower back area to hold the pills. The sensitivity is there even when I don't have the pills in my mouth. Chewing crunchy things is when I notice it most.

I am up to 12mg adB12 and 15mg mB12 - and other than the mouth issue, I still have not had any startup symptoms, nor have I noticed improvement in any of my CFS symptoms.

This is not a symptom I've ever experienced and have no dental issues with my teeth/gums. Has anyone else run into this problem?

 

[Freddd]

Hey B12 gang. I've developed a localized sensitivity to the B12s. It makes my gums hurt. This feels like neuropathic pain and is most acute when the B12s are in my mouth. There are some places between my cheek and gums where I can no longer place the pills there for more than a few seconds. I have alternated locations and currently can only use the lower back area to hold the pills. The sensitivity is there even when I don't have the pills in my mouth. Chewing crunchy things is when I notice it most.

I am up to 12mg adB12 and 15mg mB12 - and other than the mouth issue, I still have not had any startup symptoms, nor have I noticed improvement in any of my CFS symptoms.

This is not a symptom I've ever experienced and have no dental issues with my teeth/gums. Has anyone else run into this problem?

Hi Kim,

Some people do develope sensitivity to the mb12, probably because of the acid content. My suggestion at this point is to cut back to 1 of each kind and start up the cofactors. For instance one of the critical cofactors, or maybe a combo of 5 of them, could be missing and causing ineffectialness. Methylfolate is number one on the list, followed by l-carnitine fumarate and SAM-e. And very fundamentally, magnesium/calcium or zinc or vitamin D3. Also, a b-complex is vitally important, preferably one with conenzyme versions of the vitamins in multiple cases.

Any of the missing cofactors or combinations of missing cofactors could be preventing activity.

 

[Chris]

that AOR stuff that dmholmes cited--Advanced B Complex

Hi David,

I find it puzzling that they list "folic acid" as methylfolate, so which is it? And the choline is not microencapsulated which may lead to stomach upset and b-burps. The dosages of the various items is very different possibly leading to different results so keep track of changes you notice. It does lack p-5-p which might make a diffrerence for you, or might not. It's good to see the methylfolate if that is really what is there. The label is quite unclear and contradictory.

Freddd, I have a bottle of the stuff in front of me, and the label does say "Folic Acid (5 -Methyltetrahydrofolate)" 1,000 mcg. per 3 capsules
It also says "B6 (Pyridoxal-5-phosphate" 100 mg per 3 capsules.

I use quite a few AOR products, and tend to believe they tell truth--so am going to continue to think that they are using "folic acid" as a generic term, and that the capsules actually contain 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate, particularly since they also make a separate capsule they call BioFolate, but identify again as 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate.

The same is true of the P-5-P--they make a separate capsule called just that, and specified as "Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate". I think they are really OK, even if Canadian! And no burps or upset noted yet.

Best to all, Chris.

 

[dmholmes]

Freddd, I have a bottle of the stuff in front of me, and the label does say "Folic Acid (5 -Methyltetrahydrofolate)" 1,000 mcg. per 3 capsules
It also says "B6 (Pyridoxal-5-phosphate" 100 mg per 3 capsules.

Yep, it was pretty obvious looking at the older version of the product on their USA site, which didn't use methylfolate.

 

[Freddd]

Yep, it was pretty obvious looking at the older version of the product on their USA site, which didn't use methylfolate.

Good to here that is clarified. I am interested in hearing about differences in response with this b-complex with the very different proportions and inclusionm of items. It's always good to have more choices of effective items in a category, especially if an alternating trial is done that makes the differences stand out.

 

[dmholmes]

Hey B12 gang. I've developed a localized sensitivity to the B12s. It makes my gums hurt. This feels like neuropathic pain and is most acute when the B12s are in my mouth. There are some places between my cheek and gums where I can no longer place the pills there for more than a few seconds. I have alternated locations and currently can only use the lower back area to hold the pills. The sensitivity is there even when I don't have the pills in my mouth. Chewing crunchy things is when I notice it most.
...

This is not a symptom I've ever experienced and have no dental issues with my teeth/gums. Has anyone else run into this problem?

Since starting supplements I've had occasional tooth/gum pain when brushing, but it moves around to different area each time I brush. Hasn't happened lately, but quite a bit last month.