B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Sunday]

Argh sorry that was Kim's question about what range we're titrating up to I was curious about, though I'm also very interested in Nicola's adventures.

Can you say brain fog? I knew you could.

 

[imgeha]

methylfolate / B12

Hi Freddd

I have a question about the doses of methylfolate and mB12. I understand that you need to take both, and the efficacy of B12 depends on an adequate dose of methylfolate. Is the 1 tab/ day of Metafolin enough to ensure that methylation is taking place, assuming there is enough B12 in the system? If you take more methylfolate does this make methylation happen faster or more intensely? Am I right in thinking you take 2 tabs Metafolin / day? Is this because you take a lot of B12? Do you have to take large doses of both to ensure that each gets used properly?

Assuming that the one tab of Metafolin / day is enough for methylation, what dose of B12 should we be shooting for? I am currently on 5mg / day, and have had pronounced detox with every 1mg increase from 2mg. Do I keep titrating the dose until I feel better and there is no more detox? Will taking more speed up healing? How do we know what dose is good / enough for us, or is it a question of individual experimentation? (I suspect the latter..)

anyway, thanks for your views, as always.

Nicola

 

[imgeha]

For Sunday

It's so interesting to see how this parses out for all of us, I learn a lot here. I'd be interested in the answer to Nicola's question, too.

I will say that assuming your reaction to upped dosage will only be a day or two can be dangerous. I say that because I just assumed it and really bit the dust. The first time I got on mb12 I was in bed for a week with the full panoply of symptoms; when I upped dosage the first time, the effects were much less severe than starting, and lasted only a few days.

Then I added methylfolate to the mix. That was a rough ride but about ten days later I felt I was stabilizing a bit so upped my mb12 dosage again. Well, that was on Tuesday and while Tuesday morning I had great unprecedented amounts of energy (haven't sprinted across a street between cars for quite a while), I rapidly crashed that afternoon and have remained crashy since. Pretty badly crashy, though I've been able to stand up and do a few things around the house in between bedrest.

This last crash has been disheartening, and I don't know if it's just the course of the disease, the mb12, or adding the methylfolate and then taking mb12. I just missed a good friend's 60th birthday bash last night because I wasn't standing or computing well; I'd calculated that I'd be over the worst of my dosage-upping crash by then. I was wrong. This illness is wacky, and so it makes a weird sense that reversing it to any extent might get wacky, too. I find it tough to count on any pattern even in myself, much less that my pattern will match someone else's.

Hi Sunday

sorry to hear you keep crashing. I have to say that I stopped crashing frequently after I got started on adrenal support, and I believe that this is why I can do most normal daily life things, like go shopping, run around after the kids and go for the occasional walk. Detoxing will undoubtedly stress the adrenals, and if they are already weak, then it will cause problems. Supporting my adrenals has enabled me to tolerate amalgam removal, chelation, and now, getting methylation going and hopefully healing from decades of B12 deficiency. I had no choice about going on adrenal support - I had ceased to function and was in a very bad way 3 1/2 years ago.

I'm very happy to chat offlist, if you want to email me and share beyond what's relevant on this forum. It's always nice to have someone who's going through the same thing!

take care

Nicola

 

[markmc20001]

adrenal support

Hi Sunday

sorry to hear you keep crashing. I have to say that I stopped crashing frequently after I got started on adrenal support, and I believe that this is why I can do most normal daily life things, like go shopping, run around after the kids and go for the occasional walk. Detoxing will undoubtedly stress the adrenals, and if they are already weak, then it will cause problems. Supporting my adrenals has enabled me to tolerate amalgam removal, chelation, and now, getting methylation going and hopefully healing from decades of B12 deficiency. I had no choice about going on adrenal support - I had ceased to function and was in a very bad way 3 1/2 years ago.

I'm very happy to chat offlist, if you want to email me and share beyond what's relevant on this forum. It's always nice to have someone who's going through the same thing!

take care

Nicola

Hi Nicola,

You if I ask what you are doing for adrenal support?I think I have adrenal fatigue because of what I read on it one time, but haven't totally adressed it yet. I have been taking paba, and pantethene which is supposed to help. I heard Cordyceps should help. Any other suggestions what one may try for adrenal fatigue?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[Sunday]

Nicola (and Mark),

Thought-provoking suggestions!

When this first started I thought it was adrenal fatigue and supplemented with the Standard Process supplements - material from endocrine glands of organically raised cows, minus the hormones, meant to support but not replace the action.

I used the one for adrenals (Drenamin) as well as the one for thyroid and pituitary, because apparently if the adrenals are really exhausted the thyroid and pituitary get drawn on to supply the deficit.

At the time it helped some but (of course) didn't really get me well so I eventually went off them. Now your post is making me think it might be a good time to try them again; if it could make a difference in this B12 process that would sure be welcome. (I hope that last sentence means I'm not entirely highjacking this thread.)

I was certainly impressed at the Standard Process quality, and I'd recommend them to you Mark as a good starting point rather than going for the hormones right away. In some cases the pharmaceutical meds with hormones really are what's required, but I think it's a good idea to start with the stuff that's least invasive first; the trouble with taking hormones is that your body can get signals to stop making them itself.

 

[Freddd]

I have a question for Fredd or any other B12 authority... and I apologise sincerely if I am being repetitive or irrelevant to the thread.

I have just had my first hydroxycobalamin injection (5mg) and my heart is thumping. It's not tachycardia, it is just pounding really hard. Could this be connected, or just coincidence?

Also, I have used sublingual methyl B12 tablets in the past that gave me quite a buzz/ energy high but I am not getting that at all from the injection. Could that mean it isn't working for me?

One other possibly relevant bit of info - I read in Fredd's initial message that you need Vitamin D (among other things) alongside B12 supplementation. I have high serum Vitamin D and have been banned from sunlight because of this.

I am sure this has been explained in the thread already but I need it simplified down to a level that Homer Simpson would understand, if possible. Sincere thanks to anyone who can help.
Athene

Hi Athene,

I have just had my first hydroxycobalamin injection (5mg)
Also, I have used sublingual methyl B12 tablets in the past that gave me quite a buzz/ energy high but I am not getting that at all from the injection. Could that mean it isn't working for me?

Hydroxyb12 is NOT methylb12 and does not have the same effect. The effects of hydroxyb12 are limited to the small amount in mcgs that can actually be converted to adb12 and/or mb12 before it is excreted. For about 1/3 of folks hydroxyb12 does not work and for the other two thirds it has minimal effectiveness on 1/3 of the symptoms. One of the 5 star sublingual brands of mb12 can be 100 times+ more effective than hydroxyb12 injections of any size.

Could that mean it isn't working for me?

It doesn't work for 1/3 and works relatively poorly for the rest. There is no expectation at all that it would do what methylb12 does. So compared to b12 in a direct comparison it is not going to do the same thing.


If you are too high on vitamin D and have been advised to actually stay out of the sun for that, which is the first time I have ever heard that, I would follow my docs advice, at least until I had researched it thoroughly and found out what is going on and if that is a good idea.

I have just had my first hydroxycobalamin injection (5mg) and my heart is thumping. It's not tachycardia, it is just pounding really hard. Could this be connected, or just coincidence?

Tachycardia is a b12 deficiency symptom. However, it is also caused by many different things and is non specific. It's hard to say whether it is connected. A pounding heart I have no idea about. If it happens repeatably each time you have a hydroxyb12 injection then there probably is a connection of some kind.

Methylb12 needs to be taken with the basic nutritional items as well as some cxritical cofactors for full effectiveness. If mb12 gives you a bit of a buzz, adb12, the other form of human usable b12 would likely help you considerably. Read the basics at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd

I have a question about the doses of methylfolate and mB12. I understand that you need to take both, and the efficacy of B12 depends on an adequate dose of methylfolate. Is the 1 tab/ day of Metafolin enough to ensure that methylation is taking place, assuming there is enough B12 in the system? If you take more methylfolate does this make methylation happen faster or more intensely? Am I right in thinking you take 2 tabs Metafolin / day? Is this because you take a lot of B12? Do you have to take large doses of both to ensure that each gets used properly?

Assuming that the one tab of Metafolin / day is enough for methylation, what dose of B12 should we be shooting for? I am currently on 5mg / day, and have had pronounced detox with every 1mg increase from 2mg. Do I keep titrating the dose until I feel better and there is no more detox? Will taking more speed up healing? How do we know what dose is good / enough for us, or is it a question of individual experimentation? (I suspect the latter..)

anyway, thanks for your views, as always.

Nicola

Hi Nicola,


Is the 1 tab/ day of Metafolin enough to ensure that methylation is taking place, assuming there is enough B12 in the system? If you take more methylfolate does this make methylation happen faster or more intensely?

I'm going to tell you my experience. For 2 years 1 tablet of 800mcg of methylfolate was completely adequate and more made no difference at all. I was also taking SAM-e, 200mg/day and mb12, varying amounts.

Then I tried the glutathione precursors and went into a hard folate deficiency state within hours. Six months after stopping the 6 week trial I was still in a hard folate deficiency despite 800mcg/day of methylfolate and recognized it with the help of somebody on a forum. I upped the methylfolate to 4800mcg a day and that started reversing the folate deficiency immediately. Two months ago I tried to reduce to 3200mcg and went back into deficiency symptoms within a couple of days and increased back to 4800mcg. A couple of weeks ago I decreased to 4000mcg and this week to 3200mcg and so far so good. I have no reason to think that I won't be able to reduce to 800mcg as I recover from the glut.

Again, right after the glut I upped my SAM-e to 400mg and that helped some but I was still having problems not corrected until 4800mcg of methylfolate.

SAM-e is a major methylator 200mg or 400mg makes a lot more difference in total methylation capacity than 0.8mg or 4.8mg of methylfolate. If I were not taking the SAM-e then there would be a lot more pressure on the methylfolate as a source of methyl groups. Taking the SAM-e leaves methylfolate to do just the things that only methylfolate can do instead of providing methyl groups to run the whole show. That might be another reason that methylfolate made such a small specific difference for me.

In regards to the methylb12 then, the same idea might apply with the SAM-e. Also in that way methylfolate will take some of the methyl donor pressure off the methylb12.

A 5mg Jarrow methylb12 held for 45 minutes puts about 750mcg of mb12 into the blood, held for 2 hours, about 1250mcg. So let's call that 1mg injection equivalent on the average.

Research has shown that the healing response to mb12 has a dose proportionality to it, though not linear. There is a balance to all these things. If SAM-e is taken, it reduces a need for methylfolate and mb12 taken purely as methyl donor sources. To some extent the body can find alternate biochemical pathways.

Assuming that the one tab of Metafolin / day is enough for methylation, what dose of B12 should we be shooting for? I am currently on 5mg / day, and have had pronounced detox with every 1mg increase from 2mg. Do I keep titrating the dose until I feel better and there is no more detox? Will taking more speed up healing? How do we know what dose is good / enough for us, or is it a question of individual experimentation.

One tablet of Metafolin may be plenty or not. That might depend upon presence of SAM-e for instance. My suggestion would be to reach an equilibrium with 5 or 10mg of Jarrow mb12, 3mg daily of adb12 and 800mcg of Metafolin, then add in SAM-e, titrating that, and l-carnitine fumarate, titrating that. Also the alpha lipoic acid shouldn't be forgotten. This is on an assumed base of B-right twice a day, a,d,e,c,zinc, magnesium, calcium, omega3 oils etc. Then after all these other things are in, then trying an increase of mb12 and see if that makes any additional difference. If it does, keep titrating until it makes no more difference. If it was making a difference ONLY because of increased methylation capacity, SAM-e will take care of that. Same with methylfolate. After equilibrium has been reached on these things and an increase of another 5mg of mb12 makes no difference, and all the critical cofactors are on board, then its time to try the 50mg dose of mb12 and adb12 to test for CNS/CSF penetration and see if that makes a difference.

Increasing one single item to very high levels without the critical cofactors whose absence might be preventing the functionality of the mb12 or adb12 doesn’t make sense to me. One of the “fine tuning” things is to determine the balance of all these things that works best. This has sort of been niggling at the back of my consciousness for some while now while I keep saying “balance”. Balance is very important. Without l-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid, the adb12 might not work at all despite 21mg/day where as 3mg works perfectly with 500mg of carnitine and 1 tablet of Alpha Lipoic Sustain. On the other hand you might find that before the carnitine nothing more than 3mg does anything but after the carnitine 9mg banishes the brainfog. The whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. More isn’t always better. MORE UTILIZABLE is getting closer. Balance helps attain better utilization. More of one thing doesn’t replace a lack of something else. Good luck.

 

[Sunday]

thanks and questions for Freddd

Thanks Freddd for this detailed useful information, especially handy as I'm about to make a new vitamin order.

I had been planning to add l-carnitine fumarate to what I'm taking - so far the base vitamins and minerals (including B-right), plus 3 1mg mb12 a day, 2 3mg adb12 a day, alpha lipoic acid 100mg, methylfolate 800mg. Now I've read the above post, I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense to also order some SAM-e. Is there any particular reason to choose adding l-carnitine fumarate before SAM-e, or to do it the other way around?

I'm also taking Nicola's suggestion and shopping for some adrenal support to see if I can even up the roller coaster ride the mb12 is giving me. While shopping at Standard Process, I found a product called neurotrophin, which purports to support brain function at a cellular level. Since I've been impressed at the quality of SP products, I was considering taking this as well. Would there be anything in this that would mess up the B12 protocol?

 

[imgeha]

Hi Nicola,

You if I ask what you are doing for adrenal support?I think I have adrenal fatigue because of what I read on it one time, but haven't totally adressed it yet. I have been taking paba, and pantethene which is supposed to help. I heard Cordyceps should help. Any other suggestions what one may try for adrenal fatigue?

Thanks,
Mark

Hi Mark

I would second what Sunday says. Start off with adrenal cortex extract (ACE) / glandulars. These got me out of bed before I could get proper treatment from a knowledgeable doctor. There are many other things you can do to help struggling adrenals - avoid caffeine and sugar - these cause fluctuations in blood sugar and stress the adrenals further. Lots of Vitamin C, try some sea salt in water, keep going with the B vits. Try to get regular hours of sleep. Try licorice as well.

Most importantly, reduce stress - stress that you are conscious of and physiological stress, ie body stress from toxins. My adrenals are shot from 30 years of amalgam fillings and hypothyroidism - this was physiological stress that I wasn't aware of before it was all too late...

If none of this is cutting it, you probably need to do a 24hour saliva cortisol test, which will show what your cortisol levels are and what stage of adrenal fatigue you are at. Depending on the results of this, you may need hydrocortisone. But this is the last resort. If you look after and baby your adrenals, you may be able to restore their function.

lots on google and yahoo forums about adrenals...

Best

Nicola

 

[imgeha]

[One tablet of Metafolin may be plenty or not. That might depend upon presence of SAM-e for instance. My suggestion would be to reach an equilibrium with 5 or 10mg of Jarrow mb12, 3mg daily of adb12 and 800mcg of Metafolin, then add in SAM-e, titrating that, and l-carnitine fumarate, titrating that. Also the alpha lipoic acid shouldn't be forgotten. This is on an assumed base of B-right twice a day, a,d,e,c,zinc, magnesium, calcium, omega3 oils etc. Then after all these other things are in, then trying an increase of mb12 and see if that makes any additional difference. If it does, keep titrating until it makes no more difference. If it was making a difference ONLY because of increased methylation capacity, SAM-e will take care of that. Same with methylfolate. After equilibrium has been reached on these things and an increase of another 5mg of mb12 makes no difference, and all the critical cofactors are on board, then its time to try the 50mg dose of mb12 and adb12 to test for CNS/CSF penetration and see if that makes a difference.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Increasing one single item to very high levels without the critical cofactors whose absence might be preventing the functionality of the mb12 or adb12 doesn’t make sense to me. One of the “fine tuning” things is to determine the balance of all these things that works best. This has sort of been niggling at the back of my consciousness for some while now while I keep saying “balance”. Balance is very important. Without l-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid, the adb12 might not work at all despite 21mg/day where as 3mg works perfectly with 500mg of carnitine and 1 tablet of Alpha Lipoic Sustain. On the other hand you might find that before the carnitine nothing more than 3mg does anything but after the carnitine 9mg banishes the brainfog. The whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. More isn’t always better. MORE UTILIZABLE is getting closer. Balance helps attain better utilization. More of one thing doesn’t replace a lack of something else. Good luck


Hi Freddd

Ok - your advice makes sense to me. And there I was, feeling pleased with myself that I had worked up to one tab / day of Metafolin Onwards....

thanks

Nicola

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Freddd for this detailed useful information, especially handy as I'm about to make a new vitamin order.

I had been planning to add l-carnitine fumarate to what I'm taking - so far the base vitamins and minerals (including B-right), plus 3 1mg mb12 a day, 2 3mg adb12 a day, alpha lipoic acid 100mg, methylfolate 800mg. Now I've read the above post, I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense to also order some SAM-e. Is there any particular reason to choose adding l-carnitine fumarate before SAM-e, or to do it the other way around?

I'm also taking Nicola's suggestion and shopping for some adrenal support to see if I can even up the roller coaster ride the mb12 is giving me. While shopping at Standard Process, I found a product called neurotrophin, which purports to support brain function at a cellular level. Since I've been impressed at the quality of SP products, I was considering taking this as well. Would there be anything in this that would mess up the B12 protocol?

Hi Sunday,


Is there any particular reason to choose adding l-carnitine fumarate before SAM-e, or to do it the other way around?


There is nothing I can really point to. In the end a lot of people need both and some need neither. In the end you may not be able to tell the difference between them in their actions. They both can increase energy, improve mood, improve tissue healing, improve neurological functioning but for entirely different reasons through different functioning. They both help active b12s to function better.

 

[Freddd]

[One tablet of Metafolin may be plenty or not. That might depend upon presence of SAM-e for instance. My suggestion would be to reach an equilibrium with 5 or 10mg of Jarrow mb12, 3mg daily of adb12 and 800mcg of Metafolin, then add in SAM-e, titrating that, and l-carnitine fumarate, titrating that. Also the alpha lipoic acid shouldn't be forgotten. This is on an assumed base of B-right twice a day, a,d,e,c,zinc, magnesium, calcium, omega3 oils etc. Then after all these other things are in, then trying an increase of mb12 and see if that makes any additional difference. If it does, keep titrating until it makes no more difference. If it was making a difference ONLY because of increased methylation capacity, SAM-e will take care of that. Same with methylfolate. After equilibrium has been reached on these things and an increase of another 5mg of mb12 makes no difference, and all the critical cofactors are on board, then its time to try the 50mg dose of mb12 and adb12 to test for CNS/CSF penetration and see if that makes a difference.[/size][/font]

Increasing one single item to very high levels without the critical cofactors whose absence might be preventing the functionality of the mb12 or adb12 doesn’t make sense to me. One of the “fine tuning” things is to determine the balance of all these things that works best. This has sort of been niggling at the back of my consciousness for some while now while I keep saying “balance”. Balance is very important. Without l-carnitine and alpha lipoic acid, the adb12 might not work at all despite 21mg/day where as 3mg works perfectly with 500mg of carnitine and 1 tablet of Alpha Lipoic Sustain. On the other hand you might find that before the carnitine nothing more than 3mg does anything but after the carnitine 9mg banishes the brainfog. The whole is much greater than the sum of the parts. More isn’t always better. MORE UTILIZABLE is getting closer. Balance helps attain better utilization. More of one thing doesn’t replace a lack of something else. Good luck


Hi Freddd

Ok - your advice makes sense to me. And there I was, feeling pleased with myself that I had worked up to one tab / day of Metafolin Onwards....

thanks

Nicola

Hi Nicola,

And there I was, feeling pleased with myself that I had worked up to one tab / day of Metafolin

By all means be pleased by that. And keep going and become even more pleased.

 

[_Kim_]

Freddd,

I've read the first few pages of this thread several times, but still am unsure of how much each of adB12 and mB12 I am aiming to take each day. When should I add in SAMe or d-ribose? And what brand/dosage of SAMe do you recommend (Costco has several)?

Here's what I'm up to:
9mg adB12
15mg mB12
1 B-Right (2X day)
800 mcg Metafolin

10,000/400 IU A&D
2000 mg Vit. C
2,000 IU Vit. D3
800 IU Gamma E
4 Fish Oil Caps (~1400 mg Omega-3)
~800-1000 mg Magnesium
30mg zinc citrate
99mg potassium citrate
200 mcg chromium picolinate

300 mg ALA
330 mg Levocarnitine (Rx)
1000 mg TMG

 

[Freddd]

Freddd,

I've read the first few pages of this thread several times, but still am unsure of how much each of adB12 and mB12 I am aiming to take each day. When should I add in SAMe or d-ribose? And what brand/dosage of SAMe do you recommend (Costco has several)?

Here's what I'm up to:
9mg adB12
15mg mB12
1 B-Right (2X day)
800 mcg Metafolin

10,000/400 IU A&D
2000 mg Vit. C
2,000 IU Vit. D3
800 IU Gamma E
4 Fish Oil Caps (~1400 mg Omega-3)
~800-1000 mg Magnesium
30mg zinc citrate
99mg potassium citrate
200 mcg chromium picolinate

300 mg ALA
330 mg Levocarnitine (Rx)
1000 mg TMG

Hi Kim,

I buy the Nature Made at Costco, one box at a time until it's on sale once or twice a year at $5-8 off and then buy a lot. I find 1 tablet a day works great and that two doesn't do anything more. If I were doing comparative testing, I would use that as my standard of comparison as that is realiably active in my entire test panel. If I go off it for a week, I can feel it starting up within 1 hour after taking on an empty stomach.

You might want to try the l-carnitine fumarate as that is what is most active with the mitochondria. I didn't find any other form that had any discernable activity. In fact when I took a combination the l-carnitine fumarate appeared to be inactivated.

I suggest that a person try several brands and forms of these things to find the form that makes a difference. I have to be off carnitine of SAM-e about a week before I notice onset effects. Ineffective brands have no onset effects even when others do. Stopping something rarely makes a noticable difference bcasue it happens so slowly. Then when one goes back on the difference is felt, if it is an effective brand. To decide that something is ineffective in a certain group of items I try at least 3 or 4 stop and start cycles. Things like Ginko or grape extract or whatever make no noticable difference so some things have to be taken based on long term research etc. Things affecting active b12s methylation and ATP generation and such are noticable quickly, good or bad. So far, everything with a noticable effect has been good with a few exceptions where it reduces or blocks the active b12s and folate, such as glutathione (precursors) and arginine.

You might also try starting the l-carnitine fumarate without the TMG and then add that later and notice the differences. It takes only about 3 or 4 days to notice the TMG differences coming and going.

The D-ribose is the very last thing or so I would add in as it needs the base to built first. You can't tell if it is recycling the ATP if you are not generating it well. And if it is being generated well in the first place it may not make any difference except when only a little is being generated.

unsure of how much each of adB12 and mB12 I am aiming to take each day.

After the SAM-e and l-carnitine fumarate are in place, you could try the 50mg challange doses, but let's discuss that first. After that you could adjust the adb12 dosage and find out how much you actually need and how often. Some people need 9mg/day and others don't. Only your own experiments will tell you. After the other factors are in place, then you can see if 5mg more mb12 makles a difference. If it doesn't then time to try the 50mg. If it does, you need to find the level that makes no difference. You might also see if you can tell the difference as 3x5mg doses versus 1x15mg dose.

 

[Freddd]

The underlying assumptions a person has very much influences how they think about something. When it is totally unacceptable to treat pain with opioids, different theories come out. I had great benefit from some of the theories. Dilantin was quite effective a relieving certain neurological pain that opioids were not so good at treating. However, with adequate methylb12 that pain for which Dilantin was effective just went away. I didn't need a multitude of drugs to treat this multitude of symptoms. I just needed the right vitamins. Based on the theory that vitamins don't do anything noticable or profound, I needed lots of expensive drugs. However, as a multitude of symptoms went away with the vitamins, they no longer needed treatment.

It may be that certain types of chronic pain only occur in the absence of sufficient mb12, adb12 and methylfolate becasue of the resulting neurological malfunction. The whole theory of a "methylation block" wouldn't have occurred if everybody were taking mb12 and methylfolate. I came up with the same idea in a slightly different form 6 years ago for what happened in people taking cyanob12 and folic acid and called it "depleted methylators". I was a good example of such a depleted methylator. I had a huge response to mb12 and SAM-e. As methylfolate came along after I had already re-established a functional methylation system, it's only effect was those things specifically folate.

I think that is is pretty clear now that "depleted methylators" or "methylation block" is an artifact of taking the inactive vitamins instead of the active vitamins or nothing at all. In other words, "methylation block" symptoms are a subset of methylb12 and/or methylfolate deficiency symtoms and part of a much larger constellation of symptoms rather than some isolated thing unto itself. The intensity of the lack of methylation symptoms is such that it overshadows many of the rest.

If the startup is too intense then titrate. It is more effective to get 10mcg of methylb12 than 1000mcg of hydroxyb12.

The way to titrate with 1000mcg Jarrow methylb12 sublingual is this. The values are approximate as to actual amounts absporbed but there wil be a graduated proportinality. It is an alternative to crumbs. It will work similarly with adb12 or the 5mg tablet.

1. 10 mcg, chew and swallow immediately
2. 20mcg, hold for 3 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
3. 30mcg, hold for 6 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
4. 40mcg, hold for 9 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
5. 50mcg, hold for 12 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
6. 60mcg, hold for 15 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
7. 70mcg, hold for 18 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
8. 80mcg, hold for 21 minutes under tongue, chew and swallow
9. 90mcg, hold for 24 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
10. 100mcg, hold for 27 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
11. 110mcg, hold for 30 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
12. 120mcg, hold for 33 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
13. 130mcg, hold for 36 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
14. 140mcg, hold for 39 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
15. 150mcg, hold for 42 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
16. 160mcg, hold for 45 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
17. 170mcg, hold for 50 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
18. 180mcg, hold for 55 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
19. 190mcg, hold for 60 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
20. 200mcg, hold for 70 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
21. 210mcg, hold for 80 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
22. 220mcg, hold for 90 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
23. 230mcg, hold for 100 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
24. 240mcg, hold for 110 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
25. 250mcg, hold for 120 minutes under upper lip chew and swallow
26. 260mcg, hold under upper lip until gone

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, this is Lena again trying to figure out how I can do the B12 protocol. I have been off all Bs for 10 days and I am horrible. I need to take xananx every 2 hours for the shaking legs and severe anxiety. The severe fatigue has come back a few days ago. This morning in desperation I took a B-right and by afternoon I had a little nausea. I am trying to figure this out because when I started the protocol the first of September I had no symptoms of nausea for 6 weeks only until I was on three adb12 did I start to detox and the nausea started and only stopped when I quit all Bs. I am so sure that my problem is a B12 deficiency but the nausea is severe. Does any one have any ideas for me I can't live like this. Dr. started me on Zoloft due to depression, did not have any depression while on B12. Dr. started me on sleeping pills, was starting to sleep 5 hours at a time when on B12. What am I going to do? HELP HELP.

Lena

 

[aquariusgirl]

Lena

Hi LEna
I'm not Fred and not a doctor, but I wonder if a binder of some sort (activated charcoal...or some such) would alleviate the nausea.. this is based on the assumption that you are mobilising a lot of toxins.

Have you tried GABA for the anxiety? Sorry I have not been following this thread very closely.

One more thing...to throw out for your consideration. Some of the CFS folks who started the simplified protocol back a while found they had a honeymoon period where they felt better then the detox kicked in and they felt worse and better in phases.

The usual advice is to cut back, or pace yourself.

Good luck. Hope you feel better.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I was one of the folks who had a FIERCE DETOX--from the adB12 and B Right. I did a fecal metals test which proved it. Many metals showed up in a lower range and thallium showed up in a fairly high range. The B12 had acted as a mobilizer for these toxic metals, and I felt like HELL when they began to recirculate.

I know Sushi had strong detox reactions from Rich's simplified protocol and had to resort to taking just little smidges of each of the folates and the hydroxy B12, until she clearly enough toxins that she could begin taking the recommended doses.

My advice is TRUST YOUR BODY. If you are stressing the hell out of it by trying to push a protocol, this does not produce "healing." It's best to back off and start with teeny tiny doses that you don't have strong reactions to.

Just my two cents.

 

[imgeha]

Lena - B12 / adrenals

Hi Fredd, this is Lena again trying to figure out how I can do the B12 protocol. I have been off all Bs for 10 days and I am horrible. I need to take xananx every 2 hours for the shaking legs and severe anxiety. The severe fatigue has come back a few days ago. This morning in desperation I took a B-right and by afternoon I had a little nausea. I am trying to figure this out because when I started the protocol the first of September I had no symptoms of nausea for 6 weeks only until I was on three adb12 did I start to detox and the nausea started and only stopped when I quit all Bs. I am so sure that my problem is a B12 deficiency but the nausea is severe. Does any one have any ideas for me I can't live like this. Dr. started me on Zoloft due to depression, did not have any depression while on B12. Dr. started me on sleeping pills, was starting to sleep 5 hours at a time when on B12. What am I going to do? HELP HELP.


Hi Lena

Not Freddd, but here's my take for what it's worth. Nausea, shakey legs, anxiety and depression sound like severely fatigued adrenals to me - I've been there. Detox will stress the adrenals, and it will be unsustainable if you have severe adrenal fatigue. I was an adrenal wreck before I had my amalgams out, and would not have been able to tolerate amalgam removal, chelation and now getting methylation going and the detox involved without adrenal support. Over on the chelation forums you are advised to check your adrenals / thyroid function before embarking on amalgam removal / chelation / detox - it is often the missing piece of the jigsaw for many people. Even if the adrenals are OK before embarking on detox, the process of detox often worsens them. Mobilising and detoxing poisonous metals through the body is extreme physiological stress.

I would stop the B12 treatment, and try some adrenal glandular treatment, to see if you get any improvement. Diet modifications are important - no sugar or caffeine, as these stress the adrenals, lots of regular sleep - see my earlier post. If that isn't cutting it, do a 24 hour saliva cortisol test to see what stage adrenal fatigue you are at. Take it from there.

You wouldn't be having such a severe reaction to the B12s if everything else was OK. My two cents....

Nicola

 

[susan]

Lena adrenals

Lena,
I agree with Nicole, I get like you....weak shaky little sleep total wreck......a typical CFS adrenal problem. I take Isocort adrenal glandular or you might be lucky to get a Doctor to give you a script for Hydrocortisone.....that can be difficult but it gets you up and a going and rests the adrenals so they can regenerate. One componding pharmacist told me 1% hydrocortisone cream rubbed inside the inner top arm can boost levels by 10% I have to take lots of the glandular...cant take hydrocortisone, Saliva test is great idea.