B-12 - The Hidden Story

[hixxy]

I asked about folinic acid and the MTHFR A1298C mutation at post 2535 of this thread. I know folinic acid is not recommended for the C677T mutation, but not sure about the A1298C mutation. Hixxy, do you know?

As with you, I only know for sure that C677T is a definite 5MTHF requirement. I think supporting A1298C is more about supporting BH4 levels, and all information I've found re supporting BH4 levels points to methylfolate as well. As far as I know A1298C doesn't impair 5MTHF synthesis though?

Does A1298C even impair glutathione synthesis??? I think these are questions for Rich! It's hard to find a definitive picture of what the consequences of A1298C are on the methylation cycle other then BH4 depletion.

 

[Lynn_M]

How does one get Rich to answer questions posted here?

 

[maddietod]

How does one get Rich to answer questions posted here?

He generously posts as much as he has time for, and like all of us he can't notice or respond to everything on all these threads.

If you have an urgent question, you could start a thread to get noticed faster.

 

[Marlène]

Is intense chest pain related to a lack of vit B12 or a consequence of hydroxyB12 injections?
I've been to all kind of specialists and despite a high cholesterol, some artherosclerosis, a low and irregular heartbeat, doctors could not give me a reason for the pain I've had since 2007.

It started before I got the injections but got worse after the injections. I stopped with hydroxyB12 in december 2011 and the pain is slowly fading away. At the same time a chiropracter did manipulate my neck for wiplash as well.

It remains a mystery if the injections worsened the chest pain. Does anyone have a clue?

 

[Lynn_M]

Marlene,

Is your chest pain in your rib area? If so, it could be costochondritis, which is an inflammation of the junctions where the upper ribs join with the cartilage that holds them to the breastbone, or sternum. The condition causes localized chest pain that sometimes can be reproduced by pushing on the cartilage in the front of your ribcage. It can cause intense chest pain. Low thyroid, low adrenals, or a virus are some of the causes. See http://www.cfids-cab.org/cfs-inform/Ic/costomm.htm.

 

[Freddd]

Is intense chest pain related to a lack of vit B12 or a consequence of hydroxyB12 injections?
I've been to all kind of specialists and despite a high cholesterol, some artherosclerosis, a low and irregular heartbeat, doctors could not give me a reason for the pain I've had since 2007.

It started before I got the injections but got worse after the injections. I stopped with hydroxyB12 in december 2011 and the pain is slowly fading away. At the same time a chiropracter did manipulate my neck for wiplash as well.

It remains a mystery if the injections worsened the chest pain. Does anyone have a clue?

Hi Marlene,

I've heard it suggested that adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate could help but I don't know that. I do know that irregularities in heartbeat can be connected to the various deficiencies. It is one of those thongs that may disappear for one reason or another. For me it was changing once a day b-complex to twice a day after mb12 and adb12. I don't know what the injections might have done if anything at all. Of course they can cause acne and other eptithelial lesions, I don't know abour endothelial lesions for instance.

 

[Marlène]

Of course they can cause acne and other eptithelial lesions

The injections gave me a lot of acne indeed the first months but then became less. After a year an injection gave me a little pimple but that's it. In the beginning a lot of low backpain as well.

 

[Marlène]

it could be costochondritis

That's an option I've been considering as well. Thank you for mentioning it!

 

[paul80]

Hi all, i've had m.e about 16 years and i started the methylation treatment yesterday. i was awake nearly the whole night with an active brain, felt quite anxious and strange. Is this normal at the start?

On a positive note i feel less fatigued today.

edit: forgot to mention last night and today i have also had a kind of ache in my legs like they are restless. Is that normal too and how long will it last?

Thanks

 

[Freddd]

Hi all, i've had m.e about 16 years and i started the methylation treatment yesterday. i was awake nearly the whole night with an active brain, felt quite anxious and strange. Is this normal at the start?

On a positive note i feel less fatigued today.

edit: forgot to mention last night and today i have also had a kind of ache in my legs like they are restless. Is that normal too and how long will it last?

Thanks

HI Paul,

The time of day you take mb12 can matter. It also causes generation of melatonin with some offset, often 12 hours. But some peop[le fall asleep 2 hours after mb12. So it is a matter of finding out your own timing. It is stimulating because it wakes up the nervous system, gives partial startup of ATP production in the mitochondria and can start methylation

 

[paul80]

Thanks Fred

I'll state my experience so far in case any one is interested.

This is my fourth day on the methylation protocol. The first day i took:
1 5mg jarrow mb12
1 jarrow b complex
1 solgar methylfolate
1 1mg mb12 (can't remember the brand it was the other one fred recommended)
1 10mg adenb12 (again the brand recommended)

That day i had very good energy (relatively) but i got no sleep at all that night. So i decided to cut down and build up slower. and since then i have just been taking the first 3 supplements i mentioned. Actually some other things i was already taking as well: omega 3 pills, vit c, magnesium.

By taking less and only in the morning, my sleep is a bit better but still disturbed. Also, since the second day i've been very tired and had mild flu like symptoms, a lot of aches in legs, lower back and head. After reading through this thread i think my symptoms seem quite normal so i'm going to stick with it and put up with the symptoms.

Other things i've noticed is the tirdness is mostly by about 5-6 oclock and later, and it just hits me like a brick. I guess this could be my body normalizing and i much prefer it to waking up in the morning with crushing fatigue and depression.

Also my mood and emotions are way better than before and this started on the first day of treatment.

I noticed reading this thread people found the adenb12 had less startup effects and they took that first so i guess i'm doing it backwards. I think i'll start up the adenb12 tomorrow and see what happens.

 

[place]

Paul,
for the first three weeks I was on the sofa as much as my life would allow! Try the potassium, lots of it. I did not get to try potassium on my first three weeks so I'm not sure how effective it is on those symptoms but it has helped me a great deal.

 

[paul80]

Hi Place, thanks for the reply. I have been taking a little pottasium, about 200mg a day. How much do you take and what symptoms did it help with?

 

[Freddd]

Hi Paul,

Which b12 a person has the largest effect is tri-modal. Those that have anxiety and some associated factors seem to be hypersensitive to adb12 and/or l-carnitine fumarate. They are close partners, like mb12 and methylfolate which is the other probable hypersensitive pair and some have extreme hypersensitivity to both.

 

[paul80]

HI Fred,
The biggest effect I noticed from the first day of this treatment was the complete reversal from anxiety and hopelessness to complete calmness and optimism. Really is amazing the dramatic effect it had on my mood, I'm quite sure it is the mb12 that has caused this. I'm baffled that it can cause anxiety in others, i would love to know how that works.

The difference in adding the adb12 is that I have increased energy, but it caused me to get no sleep both days i took it. I'm betting the sleep will settle down after a few nights as any big changes to my body I have made (such as diet) has effected my sleep but then resolved itself.

So both the b12's seem to be helping me in different ways. At the moment i feel good but I have this terrible fear sometimes that it is all going to go away.

I've decided i'm not going to mess around with doses or any of the co-factors while things are improving. I'm just going to keep the exact same supplements and see how far it can take me.

 

[Freddd]

HI Fred,
The biggest effect I noticed from the first day of this treatment was the complete reversal from anxiety and hopelessness to complete calmness and optimism. Really is amazing the dramatic effect it had on my mood, I'm quite sure it is the mb12 that has caused this. I'm baffled that it can cause anxiety in others, i would love to know how that works.

The difference in adding the adb12 is that I have increased energy, but it caused me to get no sleep both days i took it. I'm betting the sleep will settle down after a few nights as any big changes to my body I have made (such as diet) has effected my sleep but then resolved itself.

So both the b12's seem to be helping me in different ways. At the moment i feel good but I have this terrible fear sometimes that it is all going to go away.

I've decided i'm not going to mess around with doses or any of the co-factors while things are improving. I'm just going to keep the exact same supplements and see how far it can take me.

Hi Paul,

I will address that "anxiety" issue but I would like to ask a few questions. Help me out with what you are taking currently and how much. Does the anxiety expand to panic, what about rage, volitile emotions, how you feel about thrill enetrtainments and risk sports. Wwat about depression without depressive thinking or severe depression with depressive thinking?, boredom? being able to "get things done"?

I'm betting the sleep will calm down soon but it would be good to know what you are taking.

 

[place]

Paul-
Only 200! I take 3000. I think we should be getting 4800 through diet but not sure on the number. I thought going over 1000 was a bit much because of the number of pills it takes to get to 1000. It seemed excessive. I could not believe the things that would go away with potassium. See my post on my process going through the protocol:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylation-protocols-and-gains.16106/


Also, Potassium has a 24 hour effect and an immediate effect (at least for me). So my friend, bump it up and take it through out the day. I take it 500 every 3-4 hours.

Best of luck, Place

 

[Freddd]

Hi Place,

I teach metaphysics. I find for that, and this vitamin business, that a variant on the quote you use is most helpful, "When walking through hell, keep walking". And then the old Sufi saying "Even hell can be comfortable through skillful means". A lot of people want to stop right when they are at the worst spot and set up housekeeping there.

As regards potassium, I have only recently discovered that my improvment comes in 2 steps, first is staying out of spasm and second feeling better and more energetic and less muscle pain, at maybe 500mg higher per day.

 

[Megaera]

Hi Paul,

I will address that "anxiety" issue but I would like to ask a few questions. Help me out with what you are taking currently and how much. Does the anxiety expand to panic, what about rage, volitile emotions, how you feel about thrill enetrtainments and risk sports. Wwat about depression without depressive thinking or severe depression with depressive thinking?, boredom? being able to "get things done"?

I'm betting the sleep will calm down soon but it would be good to know what you are taking.

Freddd: I'm considering, in desperation, a B12 protocol for my 90 yo mother, who has multiple symptoms on your list, including burning mouth, aural hallucinations, peripheral neuropathies and a developing myriad of psych symptoms that aren't just "old-age-crabby" -- she's deeply depressed and at the same time filled with rage and anxiety ... I read your long post on Parkinsons which mentioned benzos, and that didn't sound very encouraging, as she's been taking Temazepam for insomnia for years. No telling what's going on there. She, clearly, isn't into thrill entertainments and risk sports -- she increasingly has trouble getting anything done. She isn't the person she was, and I'd like to take a shot at getting the other Her back, but I'm unsure how to proceed without actually putting her at risk. Any suggestions?

 

[paul80]

Help me out with what you are taking currently and how much

Fred, i'm taking:
2 grams per day(supposed to take 5, will build up to it) of dr myhills mineral powder which contains (per gram):

• Calcium (as calcium chloride) — 60 mgs
• Magnesium (as magnesium chloride) — 70 mgs
• Potassium (as potassium chloride) — 40 mgs
• Zinc (as zinc chloride) — 6 mgs
• Iron (as ferric ammonium chloride) — 3 mgs
• Boron (as sodium borate) — 2 mgs
• Iodine (as potassium iodate) — 0.3 mg
• Copper (as copper sulphate) — 0.2 mg
• Manganese (as manganese chloride) — 0.2 mgs
• Molybdenum (as sodium molybdate) — 40 mcg
• Selenium (as sodium selenate) — 40 mcg
• Chromium (as chromium chloride) 40 mcg
• Vitamin B12 — 1,000 mcg
• Vitamin D (as cholecalciferol) — 1,000iu

2000mg of vitamin c 3 times daily (6000mg total)
Vegepa (omega 3 and 6 balance) 1 twice a day
acytal l-carninite 1g per day

All the above i was taking for dr myhills treatment plan and have continued even though i didn't notice any improvement on them. i was taking other things that i have stopped such as gluathione, vitamin b3 and a multivitamin. I stopped the multivitamin and b3 because the b-right has b vitamins so i wasn't sure if i should take both. although the multivitamin had other vitamins i might be missing now.

1 5mg jarrow mb12
1 jarrow b complex
1 solgar methylfolate
1 source naturals 10mg(or 8.6mg? it says both on the bottle) adenb12
200mg potassium
200mg magnesium

-----------

About the anxiety. When i think about it the anxiety was a relatively new problem. I felt my illness was getting worse and i was worried i would end up in a wheelchair. I think this was the cause of the anxiety. But the illness was definitely effecting my mood badly in general.

Does the anxiety expand to panic, what about rage, volitile emotions

Yes, i was panicking a bit at the thought of being bedbound. I would say i was sometimes grumpy or angry due to feeling ill yes, but no extreme rage.

how you feel about thrill enetrtainments and risk sports

I'm not interested in those things.

What about depression without depressive thinking or severe depression with depressive thinking?, boredom? being able to "get things done"?

Yes i had problems with all those feelings, i guess they are normal due to being too ill to be able to the things you want to do. But i do feel that something was playing havoc with my emotions and increased as my illness got worse.

I'm betting the sleep will calm down soon but it would be good to know what you are taking.

I feel very good today, i got a much better sleep last night although i woke up twice i got straight back to sleep. I have almost no "start-up symptoms" this morning, nothing important anyway. My muscles are still very weak, i still don't hardly leave the house (housework and other things inside were too much) .

I would like to know the theory behind the methylation treatment how it will allow me to build back up my muscles. Is it something like: more glutathione = more ATP = mucles use atp to build up?