Anyone tried ketamine?

RYO

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@Sushi
Did you end up trying Ketamine? I have had 2 physicians recommend that I try ketamine to help chronic neuropathic pain. I found a nearby physician who prescribes low dose ketamine patches. I am a little apprehensive about trying higher dose IV ketamine.
 

Sushi

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Just heard on the news that they gave Ketamine to the Thai boys who were rescued from the cave. They needed to prevent them struggling in fear and knocking off their diving masks--so they knocked them out with Ketamine! Interesting.
 

Sancar

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@Sushi :music: Thank ,you for that information. Interesting how the application was for anxiety basically. Something I deal with for no apparent reason. I attribute my anxiety to my “nerve” issues which go on unresolved.

@RYO ? How are you doing with the Ketamine parches? Are they helping? Any notable difference for you? What is the dose per patch? How long did you wear them? Thanks for sharing your story....
 

RYO

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@Sancar
Sorry but I never moved ahead with trying the Ketamine patches. They would not have been covered by insurance and I was too ill to travel. I am uncertain they would have helped with the chronic pain of small fiber polyneuropathy. I did try ketamine in topical cream from a compound pharmacy. They had no effect. I am not sure if ketamine would have other beneficial effects. I suspect that in post infectious ME/CFS patients, that damage to the autonomic nervous system makes us more susceptible to symptoms such as unexplained tachycardia, medication sensitivity, and alcohol intolerance.
 
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debored13

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I'm curious where you get your transdermal magnesium? Is it more potent than simply supplementing with 400 mg or higher of oral magnesium?

I have yet to find a domestic seller of xenon gas for human use. I found a Chinese one on Ebay but I'm not sure I trust the source. He told me it's human grade. I don't know how to use it. Do I inhale it?

Regarding Ketamine; lots of people talked about the nasal spray version. Where are you people getting it? I know Ketamine is still a scheduled drug yet ketamine infusion clinics are popping up all over the U.S. with a price tag of $500 (insurance don't cover this). I was told that 500 mg is administered if I'm not mistaken. It's cheaper to just find a good ketamine source and administer it my self. I've seen these in vials going for less than $20. I was also told that powder versions for snorting also exists.

I wonder when the Johnson & Johnson company is going to put out their S-ketamine nasal spray? Last I read about it was about 2 years ago. The article mentioned that in 2017 we will see it in the market.
where is your Chinese source of xenon on eBay? I would not trust a source of xenon gas that is very cheap for a small amount. It’s very expensive to extract from the atmosphere and can be had for reasonable prices when buying in bulk, but buying a one-off of xenon for cheap price seems sketchy. However it’s probably possible to figure out of what you have is xenon via some other method, without inhaling it directly. The other thing that would concern me is the seller describing it as “human grade”. That’s not a term I’ve heard used to describe drugs , usually I would hear “medical grade”, “food grade” , but have never heard of “human grade”
 

debored13

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Since this thread has come back to life, I may as well post my updated list of NMDA receptor inhibitors. Inhibiting NMDA receptor activation will reduce anxiety symptoms, and protect against excitotoxicity.


NMDA inhibitors /antagonists

Magnesium — a potent NMDA inhibitor. High dose transdermal application, or injection, required for maximum effect.

Zinc

Progesterone (a hormonal supplement usually sold as a transdermal cream)

Huperzine A (a supplement)

Taurine (taurine also activates GABA receptors)

Amantadine (antiviral drug, also used for Parkinson's and Alzheimer's)

Agmatine (a supplement)

Lithium

Dextromethorphan (DXM) — an over-the-counter cough mixture (cough suppressant)

Dextrorphan (DXO) is an active metabolite of DXM. DXO a psychedelic drug and cough suppressant, is a much more potent NMDA antagonist than DXM. DXM is converted to DXO in the body by cytochrome P450 2D6 isoenzyme (aka: CYP2D6). Thus cytochrome P450 2D6 inhibitors such as imipramine, propranolol, quinine and citalopram may decrease the effect of DXM.

Dantrolene (muscle relaxant)

Orphenadrine (muscle relaxant)

Methadone (opiate)

Dextropropoxyphene (weak opiate)

Ketamine — an anesthetic and recreational drug.

Riluzole (ALS drug)

Memantine (Namenda)

Ibogaine — the hallucinogenic active principal from the root bark of Tabernanthe iboga. Microdoses of around 50 mg daily of Tabernanthe iboga root bark will not produce a hallucinogenic effect, but still have therapeutic effects. Tabernanthe iboga root bark is legal to buy in the UK, but not in the US.

Nitrous oxide (N2O) — an anesthetic gas (often used in dentistry) and and recreational drug. Also know as laughing gas. Depletes vitamin B12.

Guaifenesin (possibly?) — an over-the-counter decongestant. The guaifenesin protocol is a fibromyalgia and ME/CFS treatment.

Xenon gas. An anesthetic gas.

Cat's claw (Uncaria tomentosa) — the rhynchophylline constituent of this herb may inhibit the NMDA receptor.

Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) — a MAO-inhibitor herb. MAO-inhibitors should never be taken with nexavir/kutapressin, which contain tyramine.


Dangerous/Toxic NMDA inhibitors/antagonists:

Lead is a potent inhibitor of the NMDA receptor.

Phencyclidine (PCP, angel dust). Some studies found that, like other NMDA receptor antagonists, phencyclidine can cause a certain kind of brain damage called Olney's lesions in rats.

Kynurenic acid (high levels associated with schizophrenia and pychosis).


NMDA agonists:

Glutamate
Glycine
Ammonia
i would add to the list kratom as it has the same nmda antagonists as cats claw does , but just has additional properties from its unique delta opioid agonists
 

debored13

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A while ago, I had a severe problems with mental tension and anxiety, which I think is caused from NMDA overstimulation. I have compiled a list of safe supplements that reduce the sensitivity of the NMDA receptor. If you take several of these together, they do work. They act as anxiolytics.

Here is the list of NMDA inhibitors:

Transdermal Magnesium - potent
Taurine
Guaifenesin
Cats claw - possibly
L-Huperzine A
Zinc
Progesterone (transdermal)

Ibogaine

Amantadine, Ketamine, Riluzole, Memantine, Dextromethorphan

Nitrous oxide, xenon gas
xenon of course the most promising out of all of the psychoactive nmda antagonists , but prohibitively expensive
 

RYO

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@Sushi :music: Thank ,you for that information. Interesting how the application was for anxiety basically. Something I deal with for no apparent reason. I attribute my anxiety to my “nerve” issues which go on unresolved.

@RYO ? How are you doing with the Ketamine parches? Are they helping? Any notable difference for you? What is the dose per patch? How long did you wear them? Thanks for sharing your story....

I just thought I would provide an update. Due to persistent neuropathic pain, I tried using topical ketamine cream (10%) from a compound pharmacy a second time. Unfortunately, I had difficulty tolerating other treatments such as TCAs, gabapentin, and cymbalta. During my second trial, I applied higher amount/dose. It has helped take the edge off the chronic burning/aching sensation in my lower legs.

I recently read an article about FDA possibly approving intranasal ketamine for severe depression. If cost of esketamine is not prohibitive, I wonder if it might help brain fog and other neuro symptoms.
 

debored13

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I just thought I would provide an update. Due to persistent neuropathic pain, I tried using topical ketamine cream (10%) from a compound pharmacy a second time. Unfortunately, I had difficulty tolerating other treatments such as TCAs, gabapentin, and cymbalta. During my second trial, I applied higher amount/dose. It has helped take the edge off the chronic burning/aching sensation in my lower legs.

I recently read an article about FDA possibly approving intranasal ketamine for severe depression. If cost of esketamine is not prohibitive, I wonder if it might help brain fog and other neuro symptoms.
well I know the cost of ketamine on the black market is usually not particularly high and it’s an old drug so I would think it would be cheap. The infusion centers probably charge so much for the service of administering big doses of it to you and watching your vitals and stuff.
 

debored13

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I think ketamine would probably be helpful for pain starting around 20 mg intranasally. I remember that there are sources of it that were less than 100 $ for a few grams and I was fairly sure of no cuts/high purity. If your insurance covers it it should be available to get pretty cheap although the fee of compounding is also an issue
 

Jackb23

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I’ve done around 26 infusions of ketamine now. I have done a series of 12, series of 8, and a series of 6. All of them were 0.5mg/kg. Had very mixed results. There were some benefits, but it also made my sleep a ton worse. The results were never consistent. One series would wake me up and give me energy, the next would make me more tired. We are all different so I don’t want to discourage anyone. Overall, I would say that it doesn’t hurt to try. If you can’t source it (legally or not), dextromethorphan also works in a similar way. Make sure you aren’t sensitive to serotonin, however. Also, N20, or nitrous oxide is being investigated currently and it appears it works very similar to ketamine as an antidepressant. N2O is also much easier to obtain, but more caution should be taken since it has the potential to be quite toxic. Will give a more thorough response in the next few days as I am a bit burnt out right now.
 

Jackb23

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What I’ll also add is this: The one thing that ketamine did consistently give me every time was an escape from all the morose feelings that have ensued from being a handicapped version of what I was before I grew ill. It allowed me to bypass the galling feeling that I would constantly obsess over which is “when will this be over. When will they find a cure?”. I found myself able to wallow in a very low functioning state without my awareness burning a hole through my mood. I’ll put it this way— It made me content. The pressures that I did have mostly came from the outside pressures of my parents and their expectations for me. In the future, if i wanted to kill long periods of times waiting around (months to years) in the least horrific way possible, ketamine infusions would be my first stop. As far as energy goes, it definitely spiked my glutamate in many areas of my brain. Some of these were good, others bad. I hadn’t previously had any sleep issues and never had to use sleep aids. After ketamine however, falling asleep was a nightmare. Despite a lack of clarity in my thinking, my body refused to go to sleep. I ended up having to try very harsh programs to sleep. At first I supplemented with a few Benadryl (50-100 mgs). After more and more infusions I was eventually up to 12.5 mg ambien, 1.5 grams clonazepam, and around 150-250 mg of Benadryl a night. I would take these medicines around midnight but often times they wouldn’t work and I would be forced to watch the sun come up while suffering numerous anticholinergic delirium symptoms. After this, my dr and I employed a new program which consisted of skipping a few nights of sleep every week. The rational behind this was if I were to skip a night of sleep, the next night I would be extra tired and I would be able to sleep. I would sleep 5/7 nights a week. These were brutal. Often times I still had to take all of my medicines and still wouldn’t fall asleep until 5 am. My whole body would ache, I would start to get delusional, and I was no longer allowed to drive due to fear I would crash. It’s been 5 months since my last infusion and my sleep is getting better slowly but surely. I am now only taking half the medicines, I no longer have to do skip days, and I always fall asleep before the sun comes up.
So in conclusion, if i could see the future and knew that I had a few years to kill— with the goal being to survive and assume as much comfort as possible— ketamine would be the first treatment I would do. This is under the assumption that I didn’t have an occupation or any other responsibilities as the sleep issues would make that impossible.

I say try it though. It doesn’t hurt. Also, it took about 12 infusions for my sleep to get bad. I noticed way before this point, but never knew it would portend to what came next.
 

debored13

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NMDA receptor blocking can be achieved with high dose transdermal magnesium, and/or the drug memantine. Other NMDA antagonists are given here.
what do you think of the possibility of nmda antagonism by adamantane itself (eg not adamantane derivatives like memantine bromantane etc). Can’t find literature on this
In studies, 50 mg of ketamine is the typically dose taken intranasally for depression
i was just prescribed ketamine for “sleep and pain”. Wondering about toxicity. I have very slightly elevated bp (sometimes normal but sometimes pre hypertension) and I know it’s sympathomimetic , but can’t find good sources on how much it increases bp and how this varies w dose. It seems fairly safe tho despite that and I know they use it a ton high doses in hospital even in ppl w hypertension I think??
Also what’s the deal w how it May have excitotoxic effects. I know olneys lesions are only in rats, but still confused how an nmda antagonist could cause excitotoxiciry. Is this a rebound effect, as w gabaergics? I do think my doctor probably wouldn’t prescribe it if it was too dangerous and I need pain relief so I’m tempted to try it.
 

Hip

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what do you think of the possibility of nmda antagonism by adamantane itself (eg not adamantane derivatives like memantine bromantane etc). Can’t find literature on this
I don't know, but Wikipedia says "all medical applications known so far involve not pure adamantane, but its derivatives."



Also what’s the deal w how it May have excitotoxic effects. I know olneys lesions are only in rats, but still confused how an nmda antagonist could cause excitotoxiciry.
Yeah, I am not sure how Olney's lesions arise, but I think it's only a potential issue at high levels of long-term dosing.

For depression, new research shows it may be the HNK metabolite of ketamine which has the antidepressant effect.



Have you seen this new study on metformin for fibromyalgia pain? I wonder if metformin might also work for pain in a subset of ME/CFS patients. Though it seems you need to have some pre-diabetes state in order for it to work.
 

debored13

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As far as energy goes, it definitely spiked my glutamate in many areas of my brain. Some of these were good, others bad. I hadn’t previously had any sleep issues and never had to use sleep aids. After ketamine however, falling asleep was a nightmare. D
Very weird, my doctor Jen prescribing it for “pain and sleep” and I thought nmda antagonists decrease glutamate
 

debored13

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@Hip done some digging on sympathomimetic. Effects of k.
From this paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29525051/) , it seems like average spike in bp was small and well tolerated w sub anesthetic doses , no adverse effects even among patients w essential hypertension. Seems like this was a small dose tho (.5 mg/kg). Wondering how the effects change at larger doses and how much larger the bp spike w patients w/ essential hypertension was.

The second paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170283/) shows larger bp spike, even while premeditated w Valium , during anesthetic doses, and mentions that this effect could be dangerous in patients w cardiovascular disease. However, I’m not sure if these risks are overemphasized. Can’t find many case reports of ketamine induced MI or stroke in the literature and it seems like ketamine is neuroprotective after ischemic injury. It also says ketamine is contraindicated in patients with increased intracranial pressure , which I may have mild episodes of due to a structural abnormality.
 

Jackb23

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Hey,

So for the Adamantine, I have no idea if it would work. They have tried Nitrous Oxide for depression and have found that it is helpful so that seems to support the notion that blocking nmda is useful. However, they still think that some of the main antidepressant effects are coming from elsewhere at different sites.

As for the blood pressure, I don’t know if you are able to monitor it for the first time, but that’s maybe what id do. I don’t know if having a rescue medicine would be safe or wise, but I don’t think a benzodiazepine would put your health in jeopardy or mess with the effects of ketamine. I personally, never had super high blood pressure except for when I decided to drink a bunch the night before.

How much did your doctor prescribe you and is it by mouth, infusion, etc.? It is good for sleep and you’ll probably feel groggy.