Any benefit from Nitrous Oxide?

[Swim15]

I badly want to try replicating the study in which a person was breathing 50% laughing gas, 50% oxygen for 1h. Did you, OP, try only what I understood others call as whipping or what was your method?

Ive used whippets but they’re really inefficient. I moved on almost immediately and got a 10lb nitrous tank. You can do what that study does pretty easily, Ive got a nitrous tank and an oxygen tank at home. You could get a months worth of every other day therapy for $200

 

[Hip]

I wonder whether dissolving nitrous oxide into water — just by placing a nitrous oxide cartridge (rather than a CO2 cartridge) into a soda syphon filled with water — could be an alternative mode of administration of N2O?

So instead of inhaling, you would just consume a small amount of water with N2O dissolved in it from the soda syphon. This N20 in this water should then enter your bloodstream via the stomach.


Only a very, very tiny amount of N2O actually it metabolized when you inhale N2O into your lungs, using the usual balloon method: just 0.004% according to this source.

Thus to get the same dose from nitrous oxide water, I believe you would only need to swallow a very tiny amount of this water: by my calculation (shown below), just 1 drop of the nitrous oxide water from the soda syphon would contain the same dose that you get when you inhale N2O. So a soda syphon containing 1 liter of nitrous oxide water would contain tens of thousands of doses. That would be extremely economical.

This is my calculation:

A standard size whipped cream charger cartridge contains 7.4 grams of nitrous oxide. Ref: here.

Now 0.004% of 7.4 grams is 0.3 mg. So the dose absorbed when you breathe N2O into your lungs is just 0.3 mg of N2O.

Let's see how much nitrous oxide water from the soda syphon we would need to get the same 0.3 mg dose:

N20 is pretty soluble in water. At normal atmospheric pressure and temperature, 1.5 grams of N2O will dissolve into 1 liter of water. Ref: here. At the 10 atmosphere pressure inside a soda syphon, much more will dissolve.

So if we assume that most of the 7.4 grams of nitrous oxide will dissolve into the 1 liter of water in a soda syphon, then we are going to get about 7.4 mg of N2O in each 1 ml of water in the soda syphon. That corresponds to about 0.4 ml of N2O per drop of water from the soda syphon (there are 20 drops per ml).

Since we established that the dose of N2O absorbed in the lungs is 0.3 mg, we will therefore get roughly the same dose from 1 drop of nitrous oxide water, from a soda syphon which was charged with an N2O cartridge.

In practice, the nitrous oxide in the water may not pass efficiently from the stomach to the bloodstream, so it may be that you need to swallow more than 1 drop of this water to get your N2O dose.

Alternatively, you could place the drop of nitrous oxide water under your tongue, where the N2O may be absorbed.

 

[Swim15]

I think metabolized and absorbed are two very different things in this context but not an expert on it. Would be easy to try if NO2 dissolves in water

 

[Hip]

I think metabolized and absorbed are two very different things in this context but not an expert on it. Would be easy to try if NO2 dissolves in water

Yes, I am a bit confused by that.

Perhaps the nitrous oxide inhaled into the lungs from a balloon is amply absorbed into the bloodstream, but only a very tiny amount (0.004%) is actually metabolized by the body. Which means that nearly all the N2O you inhale will eventually be exhaled, including the N2O which initially dissolved in your blood.

But I guess you would require sufficiently high blood levels of N2O to experience the psychoactive effects.

So that would make my above analysis wrong. Maybe you will not be able to get sufficiently high blood levels of N2O by drinking nitrous oxide water made in a soda syphon, unless you drank a lot of it.

It still might be worth experimenting with charging a soda syphon full of plain water with a nitrous oxide cartridge, and drinking some of that water to see if you get a psychoactive effect.

But I think my above analysis is wrong, and you may need to drink a lot more than just one drop of water to get sufficient level of N2O in the bloodstream — maybe a glassful of the nitrous oxide water.

 

[frozenborderline]

I wonder whether dissolving nitrous oxide into water — just by placing a nitrous oxide cartridge (rather than a CO2 cartridge) into a soda syphon filled with water — could be an alternative mode of administration of N2O?

So instead of inhaling, you would just consume a small amount of water with N2O dissolved in it from the soda syphon. This N20 in this water should then enter your bloodstream via the stomach.


Only a very, very tiny amount of N2O actually it metabolized when you inhale N2O into your lungs, using the usual balloon method: just 0.004% according to this source.

Thus to get the same dose from nitrous oxide water, I believe you would only need to swallow a very tiny amount of this water: by my calculation (shown below), just 1 drop of the nitrous oxide water from the soda syphon would contain the same dose that you get when you inhale N2O. So a soda syphon containing 1 liter of nitrous oxide water would contain tens of thousands of doses. That would be extremely economical.

Confused why they would use it as an administered gas instead of iv or oral for anesthesia then

 

[frozenborderline]

I just bought a cheap brand of nitrous oxide cartridges from the UK eBay, it was made in Hungary, brand name Liss.

Then you need what's called a cracker to open the cartridge, and fill a balloon.

Here's. a question for you, hip, but also others doing this.

What's your level of concern for the substantially anecdotally documented presence of contaminants in food grade nitrous oxide ? (By the way I did a couple hits and it definitely helps with pain although it is nowhere near as long lasting or effective or healing as xenon).

There is documentation onnerowid about this problem. https://erowid.org/chemicals/nitrous/nitrous_info5.shtml
https://erowid.org/chemicals/nitrous/nitrous_article2.shtml

I
And also here: https://erowid.org/chemicals/nitrous/nitrous_article2.shtml

Its unfortunate if truly a problem bc nitrous oxide is so cheap and easy to administer compared to, say xenon. And I've had some bladder issues from ketamine. It seems some users on a blue light thread found ways of filtering the nasty stuff but I'm not totally convinced it would be easy enough for someone with brain fog to do. Plus with people who are sensitive to nanoparticles and vocs ...

 

[Hip]

Confused why they would use it as an administered gas instead of iv or oral for anesthesia then

Yeah, it's quite possible that you will not get sufficient N2O in your blood from drinking N2O water; it's just an idea I had which I thought might work. Since I do not appear to experience any psychoactive effects from N2O gas, I would not be able to test this idea. Plus I don't have a soda syphon.

What's your level of concern for the substantially anecdotally documented presence of contaminants in food grade nitrous oxide ? (By the way I did a couple hits and it definitely helps with pain although it is nowhere near as long lasting or effective or healing as xenon).

For some short term testing of N2O, I would not be concerned (but I don't have MCAS or chemical sensitivity).

For longer term use, then I would probably do some research and find the cleanest brand of N2O cartridges.

I wonder if the same contamination problem exists in CO2 cartridges which are used to make fizzy drinks in a soda syphon.

 

[frozenborderline]

I wonder if the same contamination problem exists in CO2 cartridges which are used to make fizzy drinks in a soda syphon.

lol this would be pretty damn concerning as ive been using sodastream machines to make my own carbogen to breathe

 

[frozenborderline]

After trying nitrous oxide a couple times I can attest that it's not nearly as helpful for pain or me/cfs symptoms in general as xenon. It's too bad it's so much cheaper than xenon. Xenon is so much better

 

[frozenborderline]

@Hip any detrimental effects to nitrous beyond b12 or folate depletion, and what tests are most useful for detecting those two issues ? I have high b12 , but wondering if there are indirect measurements that are more accurate

 

[frozenborderline]

Same Same goes for folate. Nitrous oxide nowhere near as helpful for pain as xenon, but its something, and if I can use it without damaging nerves, or depleting b12, that would be great

 

[Learner1]

@Hip any detrimental effects to nitrous beyond b12 or folate depletion, and what tests are most useful for detecting those two issues ? I have high b12 , but wondering if there are indirect measurements that are more accurate

Methylmalonic acid is the best test for B12 deficiency. If it's high, you're deficient. Serum B12 is a useless test. It can be high even if one is extremely deficient.

 

[Hip]

@Hip any detrimental effects to nitrous beyond b12 or folate depletion, and what tests are most useful for detecting those two issues ?

I am only aware of the B12 depletion issue.

If you want to prevent B12 depletion, you might look into Dr Greg Russell-Jones's B12 transdermal oils, which provide a systemic dose of B12 equivalent to (if not higher than) B12 injections, but are much easier to administer (you just rub the oil on the skin), and also actually cheaper than injections.

I apply the B12 methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin oil to my skin once a week, and it does hep reduce brain fog. Each bottle contains 60 doses, so one bottle will last over a year if you are applying it once weekly.

 

[frozenborderline]

Since nitrous oxide is similar to ketamine I wonder if there are clinics that use it to treat chronic pain or depression. It would be good to use it in a clinical setting bc they might monitor stuff like b12 and folate deficiency more thoroughly

 

[frozenborderline]

I would recommend anyone on this thread take a look at this bluelight thread and have caution about b12 depletion. https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...should-you-worry-about-b12-deficiency.828311/
I've noticed tingling fingers and stuff mildly but have had that without nitrous and I doubt I've done any permanent damage. But it does seem like the damage from nitrous use is very much not limited to recreational users abusing huge amounts , in fact it seems like nitrous might be more likely to cause problems with daily small amounts than occasional binges

 

[frozenborderline]

The problem is that the amount that causes neuro degeneration varies wildly person to person it seems , like there are occasional cases of people getting b12 deficiency and spinal damage after a single anesthesia dose, then there are ppl who do a bunch of charges daily and are totally fine. If you has medical guidance it could be. a good treatment , but as far as I can tell nitrous isnt used by almost any clinics the way ketamine is

There is a single clinic I found that does regular nitrous oxide treatments, but its in a city I cant go to, houston. Heres the website. https://www.lonestarinfusion.com/blog/nitrous-oxide-for-depression

 

[frozenborderline]

The problem is that the amount that causes neuro degeneration varies wildly person to person it seems , like there are occasional cases of people getting b12 deficiency and spinal damage after a single anesthesia dose, then there are ppl who do a bunch of charges daily and are totally fine. If you has medical guidance it could be. a good treatment , but as far as I can tell nitrous isnt used by almost any clinics the way ketamine is

There is a single clinic I found that does regular nitrous oxide treatments, but its in a city I cant go to, houston. Heres the website. https://www.lonestarinfusion.com/blog/nitrous-oxide-for-depression

Does anyone have ideas or input on how to find a clinic or doctor that would try this ? Is this a total anomaly ?

 

[frozenborderline]

Methylmalonic acid is the best test for B12 deficiency. If it's high, you're deficient. Serum B12 is a useless test. It can be high even if one is extremely deficient.

My doctor won't do regular methylmalonic acid tests

 

[frozenborderline]

The main problem with therapeutic nitrous oxide use outside single use for anesthesia , is that the amount that causes neuro degeneration varies wildly person to person it seems , like there are occasional cases of people getting b12 deficiency and spinal damage after a single anesthesia dose, then there are ppl who do a bunch of charges daily and are totally fine. If you have medical guidance it could be. a good treatment , but as far as I can tell nitrous isnt used by almost any clinics the way ketamine is

There is a single clinic I found that does regular nitrous oxide treatments, but its in a city I cant go to, houston. Heres the website. https://www.lonestarinfusion.com/blog/nitrous-oxide-for-depression

It seems like it would be so hard to safely self medicate with nitrous oxide even if you supplement with b12 as nobody seems to have worked out what the safe dose is, and without telling your doctor you are doing it , how can you get tested regularly for b12, folic acid, cbcs and neurological exams to make sure you aren't damaging yourself ?

So are there more clinics than this one I found that do this? Is this something I could bring up to a pain doctor?

I am prescribed ketamine, but it is causing bladder issues. I love xenon, but it is expensive. Hence why I am looking at nitrous as a possible mood enhancer and drug for pain. And even though I say I want to use it for chronic pain, I dont mean taking it daily. I mean using it infrequently to supplement regular opioids medication and NSAIDs and tylenol...

What are the safe doses of nitrous oxide? What are the contraindications? Is it used clinically besides anesthesia, for chronic pain or depression, outside of this single clinic ? Is b12 supplementation itself protective against harm, or is there a problem absorbing the b12 when you are taking nitrous???

 

[Learner1]

My doctor won't do regular methylmalonic acid tests

Maybe you should find a different doctor. MMA is far superior to serum B12, which misses many B12 deficiencies.

In the meantime, on a CBC, if MCV is over 94 or so, you might suspect B12 deficiency, although it could also be folate or B6.