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Any benefit from Nitrous Oxide?

Swim15

Senior Member
Messages
369
This was a possible coincidence I stumbled on but I’ve been at a few parties in the last few months where I took some nitrous hits.

Didn’t really put it together but I noticed some significant remission that seemed to be dose dependent to an extent.

Gonna play with it some more to see but has anyone else ever happened to notice this?
 

WantedAlive

Senior Member
Messages
158
That's interesting! N2O is an NMDA receptor antagonist. Maybe it could be decreasing NMDA induced calcium influx involved with neuronal excitotoxicity? I haven't had laughing gas since I was a teenager going to the dentist 40 years ago, dentists here don't use it anymore.
 

Swim15

Senior Member
Messages
369
That's interesting! N2O is an NMDA receptor antagonist. Maybe it could be decreasing NMDA induced calcium influx involved with neuronal excitotoxicity? I haven't had laughing gas since I was a teenager going to the dentist 40 years ago, dentists here don't use it anymore.

Yeah I was curious about this too but I haven’t noticed the same effects from memantine or ketamine so I was gonna try and figure out if it was triggering a change in metabolic cascades or something else
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,995
Didn’t really put it together but I noticed some significant remission that seemed to be dose dependent to an extent.

Gonna play with it some more to see but has anyone else ever happened to notice this?

Have not tried N2O myself, but some years ago I read the following comment, which I thought was interesting:

I am a dentist and my wife has Behcet's disease. It is an autoimmune disease that affects mainly capillaries in multiple parts of the body. Because of my awareness and study of the disease I have had referrals from patients with autoimmune diseases that end up affecting the gums and teeth.

In treating them, they have a large amount of pain in many places and their teeth and gums are more sensitive than the average person, so I quite often use nitrous oxide while treating them. Many say that the nitrous oxide gives them more relief of pain than almost anything else. It has (only temporarily) improved eyesight, hearing, relieved pain of headaches, joint pain, carpal tunnel pain, other pinched nerve pain, peripheral neuropathy in feet and hands, and the list goes on in these patients.
Source: here.

It's interesting that N2O is also being trialed for its rapid acting antidepressant effects in treatment-resistant depression.

Nitrous oxide frequent usage leads to vitamin B12 deficiency, so it would be an idea to take some B12 if using N2O a lot.
 

WantedAlive

Senior Member
Messages
158
@Swim15 N2O appears to have a cerebral vasodilatory effect, an excellent article using N2O in vasoconstrictive syndromes ref: here

Of direct relevance is the extract below from the article, where nimodipine is often prescribed for vasospasm, the same drug has benefited some PWME. N2O may be far superior for the ME/CFS cerebral vasoconstriction and hypocapnia that has been described in research.

Cerebral vasospasm is common in patients with subarachnoid hemorrhage, and accounts for delayed ischemic neurological deficits. Other causes of clinically relevant vasoconstriction include traumatic brain injury, migraine, catheter manipulation, drug-induced and idiopathic. The treatment of cerebral vasospasm remains challenging, and clinical efficacy has been proven only with nimodipine, a calcium channel blocker.

However, nimodipine can cause hypotension, and this can reduce CBF and brain tissue oxygenation. Emerging endovascular approaches with balloon angioplasty, topical papaverine, nicardipine or verapamil remain experimental without proven efficacy. Moreover a recent review of nonaneurysmal cerebral vasoconstrictive syndrome found no beneficial effect of calcium channel blockers on the clinical outcome.

Thus, there is a clear need for improved therapies for cerebral vasoconstrictive syndromes. The ideal cerebral vasodilator would be minimally invasive, easy to deliver, quick to act, and would increase cerebral blood flow without systemic hypotension or other side-effects. Nitrous oxide would meet many of these criteria, and in fact, at 50% concentration, it was reported to increase CBF even during hypocapnia, a surrogate vasoconstrictive state.

In contrast to the known detrimental effects of the hypocapnia state, we could demonstrate that low-dose nitrous oxide has an opposite beneficial effect with increase in CBF and decrease in OEF fractions indexing an improved oxygen extraction capacity.

This is a highly significant discovery if you get 10 days 'significant remission'. You really should bump this thread to watching researchers if you repeatedly experience improvements (the study link was only one dose to healthy volunteers). Keep us posted! Damn it, I live in NZ, and N2O is prescription only, if its even available.
 

kangaSue

Senior Member
Messages
1,874
Location
Brisbane, Australia

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,995
N2O appears to have a cerebral vasodilatory effect, an excellent article using N2O in vasoconstrictive syndromes ref: here

One of the most potent cerebral vasodilators is carbon dioxide (a gas easy to make at home), and I've tried breathing pure CO2 on many occasions to check if it might improve my ME/CFS (see this post), but did not notice much, apart from perhaps a mild reduction in brain fog lasting several hours.
 

Swim15

Senior Member
Messages
369
Well guys on the update - I grabbed a can of whipped cream yesterday which is enough to get one large hit out of. It took about 6 hours for the effects to kick in (same as last time) and wow...definitely noticed it starting last night and felt like I actually wanted to be alive today when I woke up.

Head feels good/positive, sex drive is back, erection quality is 100x better - whole change in mental outlook compared to my normal struggle through the “I’m never goin to be normal again” thoughts that are with me every day.

I’m pulling on some plugs to get a full 10lb tank which would last months if not a couple years
 

Swim15

Senior Member
Messages
369
Really interesting info @WantedAlive! Thanks for that.

A lot of that sounds like it could fit for me as the mental/neurological symptoms of CFS have been the worst by far and I do experience migraines.

If this continued to work for the cognitive effects this would probably save my life quite literally
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,995
Head feels good/positive, sex drive is back, erection quality is 100x better - whole change in mental outlook compared to my normal struggle through the “I’m never goin to be normal again” thoughts that are with me every day.

Would you say nitrous oxide is working more as a mood booster, rather than addressing ME/CFS symptoms? Or does it also work for ME/CFS symptoms, like brain fog, fatigue, sound sensitivity, etc?



I’m pulling on some plugs to get a full 10lb tank which would last months if not a couple years

I read here that:
Theoretically, if you're using a balloon and you blow the nitrous back into it you can reuse the same charger for quite a few hits, since your body only metabolizes .004% of the N2O.

I imagine N2O would slowly diffuse out of a balloon if left for several days; but if you placed the N2O-inflated balloon inside a sealed glass jar, that should prevent diffusion.

A single whipped cream charger cylinder is usually used for one "hit" of nitrous oxide. So if you blow back the N2O into the balloon, you could probably use the same gas many times. In the UK, N2O charger cylinders are not restricted, and can be bought online for less than £1 each.
 

Cipher

Administrator
Messages
1,032
Toxicity and harm potential

Nitrous oxide has been safely used as a mild anesthetic for over 150 years. The exact toxic dosage is unknown. Problems with its use come primarily from carelessness. Potential problems include:

  • Brain injury and suffocation can result from lack of oxygen. When used as an anesthetic, nitrous is always administered in combination with oxygen. Never use nitrous in any manner that does not provide for adequate oxygen intake.
  • Very cold temperatures of the gas can freeze the lips and throat if taken directly from a tank or whippet. Releasing the gas into a balloon first allows the gas to warm before being administered.
  • Heavy and frequent long-term nitrous use can deplete vitamin B12 in the body and lead to serious and unpleasant neurological problems. Users may experience numbness and tingle in the fingers, toes, lips, et al. In more severe cases, there will be numbness of all extremities. Taking B12 supplements, especially in combination with a multivitamin and complete amino acid supplements, may help alleviate this problem. If one experiences these symptoms, nitrous use should be ceased immediately, and if the symptoms persist, medical attention should be sought after.
  • Nitric oxide, a toxic industrial gas, is occasionally mistaken for nitrous oxide. Users should be careful they know what they are inhaling. Inhaling Nitric Oxide can permanently damage the lungs or kill.
Source
 

Cipher

Administrator
Messages
1,032
Pharmacology

Although N2O affects quite a few receptors, its anesthetic, hallucinogenic, and euphoriant effects are likely caused predominantly or fully via its effects as an NMDA receptor antagonist.[19][20] NMDA receptors allow for electrical signals to pass between neurons in the brain and spinal column; for the signals to pass, the receptor must be open. Dissociatives close the NMDA receptors by blocking them. This disconnection of neurons leads to loss of feeling, difficulty moving, and eventually the famous “hole”.

The pharmacological mechanism of action behind N2O in medicine is not entirely known. However, it has been shown to directly modulate a broad range of receptors and this likely plays a significant role in many of its effects. It moderately blocks β2-subunit-containing nACh channels, weakly inhibits AMPA, kainate, GABAC, and 5-HT3 receptors and slightly potentiates GABAA and glycine receptors.[21][22] It has also been shown to activate two-pore-domain K+ channels.[23]
Source
 

Swim15

Senior Member
Messages
369
Would you say nitrous oxide is working more as a mood booster, rather than addressing ME/CFS symptoms? Or does it also work for ME/CFS symptoms, like brain fog, fatigue, sound sensitivity, etc?





I read here that:


I imagine N2O would slowly diffuse out of a balloon if left for several days; but if you placed the N2O-inflated balloon inside a sealed glass jar, that should prevent diffusion.

A single whipped cream charger cylinder is usually used for one "hit" of nitrous oxide. So if you blow back the N2O into the balloon, you could probably use the same gas many times. In the UK, N2O charger cylinders are not restricted, and can be bought online for less than £1 each.

@Hip its worked for me for what I’d call ME/CFS symptoms.

The worst part for me has been severe brain fog in tandem with a horrible, horrible depressive/hopeless and very variable head space that changes by the hour all day long. If I didn’t have a host of other CFS symptoms then I’d say I have some sort of severe bipolar depression or something.

That’s what it’s cleared up for me.

I can’t even tell anymore how much physical fatigue I have because when the dark headspace goes away I don’t feel “fatigued” anymore but I’m also severely limiting myself now and sleeping 10-12 hours a day.

Really good info on those chargers! That’s a game changer potentially
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,995
Really good info on those chargers! That’s a game changer potentially

Apparently for recreation drug use, people buy a box of N2O whipped cream charger cylinders, and then they transfer the N2O gas to a balloon using a cheap device called a "cracker". Lots of websites sell these crackers for around $10. Perhaps you already know about crackers, but I'd not heard about them before.

The cracker pierces the seal on the cylinder, and lets the gas escape into the balloon. You cannot breathe in the N2O gas from the cylinder directly, as it is released at high a pressure, and also the gas comes out very cold, which can burn the throat. So that's why you first transfer to a balloon.



The worst part for me has been severe brain fog in tandem with a horrible, horrible depressive/hopeless and very variable head space that changes by the hour all day long. If I didn’t have a host of other CFS symptoms then I’d say I have some sort of severe bipolar depression or something.

The virus I caught (coxsackievirus B4) triggered a ton of mental health symptoms in me, even before I developed ME/CFS from it: depression, anhedonia, blunted emotions (blunted affect), generalized anxiety disorder, some mild psychosis-type symptoms. These were actually worse than my ME/CFS symptoms.

If you have pure ME/CFS without any mental health comorbidities, then provided you don't have the terrible muscle pains of ME/CFS, there's no direct immediate suffering involved in ME/CFS. On days when my mental health symptoms are not too bad, then I don't find any direct suffering from ME/CFS (I am lucky not to have any pain). Sure, if you think about the limitations it creates in life, then you might get annoyed or despondent. But no direct suffering.

But it's very common to have depression, anxiety, and other mental heath symptoms appearing alongside ME/CFS. Not surprising really, if we assume ME/CFS is due to a virus in the brain.

So if you are experiencing depression and hopelessness, that can be considered separate to ME/CFS, and might be treatable with antidepressants. Myself, I take the MAOI antidepressant moclobemide daily (this has one of the lowest incidences of sexual dysfunction, which is a very common side effect of SSRI and even TCA antidepressants).

I will also add amitriptyline and saffron to this on days when my depression gets worse. Saffron has been shown in numerous studies to be as effective as standard antidepressant drugs.

When you first get ME/CFS, it's very hard to understand where one symptom ends and the next begins, because there are so many different symptoms. And this is made even more difficult if you have mental health comorbidities. But after some time, you get a better handle on the individual symptoms.
 

Swim15

Senior Member
Messages
369
@Hip Definitely sounds about right. I can handle physical fatigue but the mental instability and feeling like I’m in a cage in my own mind with my family constantly reminding me of erratic behavior that I try my best to keep under control....definitely the worst part.

Took another small hit earlier this afternoon and felt the effects a little quicker...definitely a game changer. Went from wanting to be dead every day a few days ago to feeling fairly decent and more like my normal self.

Gonna keep experimenting with periodic dosing and see how long I can make things last and how much is needed
 

WantedAlive

Senior Member
Messages
158
One of the most potent cerebral vasodilators is carbon dioxide (a gas easy to make at home), and I've tried breathing pure CO2 on many occasions to check if it might improve my ME/CFS (see this post), but did not notice much, apart from perhaps a mild reduction in brain fog lasting several hours.

What about carbonated water? I always feel a slight lift of symptoms with carbonated water which also lasts a few hours. I have read on this site before somewhere I'm not alone in this experience. Similar to how you describe (but maybe more significant), clearer thinking, less brain fog, more able to engage in conversation. I have always wondered why. My initial thinking is it may help with urea cycle, and reduce hyper-ammonia, but it really is a mystery.

The perplexing thing about CO2 and any PWME who've had their blood gases taken report hypercapnia in their limbs. My venous BG's measure acute respiratory acidosis due hypercapnia. So if my cerebral BG's are hypocapnic as some research suggests, it implies a disparity in respiratory rate and blood flow between the head and body. If anyone cares to explain that possibility, I'd love to know.
 

Abrin

Senior Member
Messages
329
Apparently for recreation drug use, people buy a box of N2O whipped cream charger cylinders, and then they transfer the N2O gas to a balloon using a cheap device called a "cracker". Lots of websites sell these crackers for around $10. Perhaps you already know about crackers, but I'd not heard about them before.

The cracker pierces the seal on the cylinder, and lets the gas escape into the balloon. You cannot breathe in the N2O gas from the cylinder directly, as it is released at high a pressure, and also the gas comes out very cold, which can burn the throat. So that's why you first transfer to a balloon.

You can crack the cartage that way (I think I still actually have a brass cracker around here somewhere) but since it is a lot easier a lot of people just use whip cream maker that is used specifically for it (never used for food) and then use that to crack the N20 cartage in and take the gas that way.
 
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