Any benefit from Nitrous Oxide?

[Swim15]

I’ve never noticed anything from carbonated water personally.


Did want to update that this just keeps getting better and better guys. All the anhedonia, emotional blunting, and mood instability I usually have has faded even more and I feel more like myself than I have in two years.

At this point I kind of assume anything I find that helps will eventually stop after a lot of failed therapies but I’m hoping I could at least leave in this clear headspace even I have to deal with the physical fatigue or anything else.


I will also aha that it took time for this to work and it seems to be building. In hindsight, this was a random series of events but I was a party in mid July where I hit some nitrous and now that I look like back I noticed some effects but nothing insane.

Did a decent bit at a Labor Day party and that landed me 10-14 days of feeling good. Now the first hit I took Saturday took about 5-6 hours to notice and was more subtle. The hits I’ve took since then have become noticeable more quickly and have had what seems to be a compounding effect.

Guessing this is due to cerebral vasodilation at this point but it’s so drastic it has me wondering.

 

[Hip]

What about carbonated water?

It's possible the CO2 from carbonated mineral water will get into the blood. Personally, I've not noticed anything from carbonated mineral water, and a drink a lot of it.

Edited to add: It occurred to me after the fact that I should really add a link to explain why I would use it in that way.

https://theanxietyguy.com/nitric-oxide-neurotransmitter-anxiety/

Note that the nitric oxide (NO) in your link is not the same as nitrous oxide (N2O).

All the anhedonia, emotional blunting, and mood instability I usually have has faded even more and I feel more like myself than I have in two years.

That's very interesting, I think I might try this. I am always looking for treatments which can help with anhedonia, blunted emotions and depression.

Do you take a whole balloon full of the N2O in order to get these benefits? And do you get the normal 1 minute hit where you find everything funny and laugh at lot?

In my case, with any supplement or drug, I am always wary that it might trigger worsened mental health, as I often get this with treatments I try. Either triggering some worsened depression, or triggering some of the mild psychosis symptoms that I sometimes get hit with. So I hope that a one minute hit from N2O would not trigger these.

 

[Abrin]

Note that the nitric oxide (NO) in your link is not the same as nitrous oxide (N2O).

Oh man, brain fog is the worst!

I am so sorry, @Hip! I messed that up when I was trying to find a quick link. Let me try this again.

Exploring Nitrous Oxide as Treatment for Mood Disorders: Basic Concepts
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5825282/

 

[Hip]

Oh man, brain fog is the worst!

Don't worry, I saw even a professional dentist who uses nitrous oxide on his patients mix this up with nitric oxide.

 

[Swim15]

@Hip hard to measure but I have been taking a small partial breath of air (to avoid oxygen deprivation) and then one fairly large hit/breath - out of whipped cream cans right now lol. A full can is roughly a decently fully breath and I’ll hold it for as long as comfortable, probably not more than 30 seconds.

I don’t get the laughing quite as much but I haven’t in the past IIRC. Just a quick hit of a little dissociation (similar time ketamine but much weaker and very brief) and a little rush but it does perk my mood up temporarily for maybe 5 minutes even though the acute effects only last about a minute

 

[Hip]

Just a quick hit of a little dissociation (similar time ketamine but much weaker and very brief) and a little rush but it does perk my mood up temporarily for maybe 5 minutes even though the acute effects only last about a minute

So would you say there's an immediate mood boost, and then also a longer-lasting mood boost which kicks in later, and lasts for a few days? You mentioned earlier that you find the effects kick in around 6 hours after you take a gulp of nitrous oxide.

I wonder if more frequent but low doses of N2O might work just as well. That way, I could avoid the dissociative effects.

 

[Swim15]

So would you say there's an immediate mood boost, and then also a longer-lasting mood boost which kicks in later, and lasts for a few days? You mentioned earlier that you find the effects kick in around 6 hours after you take a gulp of nitrous oxide.

I wonder if more frequent but low doses of N2O might work just as well. That way, I could avoid the dissociative effects.

There’s an acute ‘Uplift’ I guess you could say just due to the ‘high’ albeit more like a mild head buzz. Thats all wrapped up in 5 minutes and gone but nothing really to do with the other symptoms I’ve described.

I noticed the fog and other symptoms lifting later - sort of like it initiated some cascade that took a little while to take effect.

I will say that today I’m noticing a little bit of a lightheaded feeling and more ortho static hypotension than I’ve had in a while so vasodilation makes sense. That said, still a worthwhile trade but I’ll continue to log it as I play around with things.

Mostly hoping it just doesn’t lose effect at some point

 

[ebethc]

I've gotten some benefits from beets / beet juice ... I might try it again

https://www.healthline.com/nutritio...ets are rich in dietary,just 45 minutes ( 5 ).



2nd - does anyone know how altitude affects nitric oxide in the body?

I know that atmospheric pressure plays into nitric oxide (I believe it's a factor in scuba diving, for example) but I don't know why or how... High pressure and high altitude can make me feel better (like, a pressurized airplane cabin, or being in the mountains)

 

[Hip]

I've gotten some benefits from beets / beet juice ... I might try it again

https://www.healthline.com/nutritio...ets are rich in dietary,just 45 minutes ( 5 ).

Nitrous oxide and nitric oxide (found in beetroot) are different things.

 

[ebethc]

Nitrous oxide and nitric oxide (found in beetroot) are different things.

different...but, similar at all? don't they both play into the ONOO theory of Martin Pall? I thought they were similar agents that both act as vasodilators, but not sure... I'd love to understand more on this subject ... it seems key to oxygenating the blood:

How can some people live at high altitudes and thrive while others struggle to obtain enough oxygen to function? The answer for Tibetans who live at altitudes around 14,000 feet is increased nitric oxide levels. High levels of NO circulate in various forms in the blood and produce the physiological mechanisms that cause the increased blood flow that maintains oxygen delivery despite hypoxia -- low levels of oxygen in the ambient air and the bloodstream.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071030095520.htm



Our results suggest that NO is an integral part of the human physiological response to hypoxia. These findings may be of relevance not only to healthy subjects exposed to high altitude but also to patients in whom oxygen availability is limited through disease affecting the heart, lung or vasculature and to the field of developmental biology.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep00109

 

[Cipher]

Prolonged Remission of Major Depressive Disorder After Single Nitrous Oxide Inhalation Treatment (2020)

Nitrous oxide (N2O, laughing gas) has shown early promise as a rapidly acting treatment for treatment-resistant major depression (1–3). Antidepressant effects of nitrous oxide in these studies started within 2 h and lasted up to 1 week. Due to the study design, however, it was impossible to determine whether antidepressant efficacy lasted beyond 1 week after nitrous oxide administration. There is currently no evidence showing how long antidepressant effects of nitrous oxide last. Here, we present a case where a patient with severe recurrent treatment resistant major depression experienced full remission, which lasted more than 1 month, after a single nitrous oxide inhalation treatment.

Case Report
Mr. X is a 41-year-old, married male patient with a more than 15-year history of unipolar depression. His first episode occurred during graduate school, was unsuccessfully treated with cognitive behavioral therapy alone, and lasted for 1 year. Subsequently, fluoxetine was tried (initially 20 mg/day for 6 months then increased to 60 mg/day for 6 months) but failed, and so the patient was switched to bupropion (150 mg/d) which resulted in improvement and ultimate remission. The patient did well up to 1 year prior to evaluation for his current depression. The precipitant of his current depression was due to unresolved marital discourse. During that year marital therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and adequate antidepressant treatment (bupropion initially 300 mg/d for 6 months, then 450 mg/d) were ineffective to relieve his depression. The patient approached us whether a treatment with nitrous oxide could be considered. In mid-December 2019 in our initial evaluation, the patient was severely depressed (PHQ-9 [Patient Health Questionnaire]: 22; GAD-7 [Generalized Anxiety Disorder Scale): 14) and after excluding potential contraindications for nitrous oxide (such as chronic vitamin B12 deficiency, middle ear occlusion) (4) and providing informed consent, we treated the patient with 50% nitrous oxide (mixed with 50% oxygen) inhalation (Porter Sentry Sedate MXR-D, Porter Instrument Division, Parker Hannifin, Hatfield, PA) for 1 h under continuous standard monitoring conditions (pulse oximetry, non-invasive blood pressure, ECG, end-tidal CO2) with an attending anesthesiologist continuously present. The patient experienced the treatment without any adverse events and recovered within a few minutes after cessation of gas administration. Within half an hour, the patient showed improved symptoms (smiling, whistling); on the next day, the patient reported reduced fear, increased joy, and overall improved symptoms. A month later (end of January 2020), the patient reported a PHQ-9 score of 0, indicating full remission, and again in mid-February he reported a PHQ-9 score of 0. We prescribed mirtazapine 15 mg for depression, poor sleep, and poor appetite, but due to the rapid improvement in symptoms, he decided not to take it.

While only a single case report, it represents evidence that a single 1-h inhalation treatment with 50% nitrous oxide may improve and even remit major depressive disorder for more than a month (4). The mechanism of nitrous oxide’s antidepressant effect is poorly understood and it presumed to involve NMDA-receptor antagonism (5).

 

[Hip]

different...but, similar at all? don't they both play into the ONOO theory of Martin Pall? I thought they were similar agents that both act as vasodilators, but not sure... I'd love to understand more on this subject ... it seems key to oxygenating the blood:

Not sure, but I've never come across any functions that endogenously generated N2O might have in the body, whereas endogenous NO has multiple functions, from its antiviral action when secreted by the immune system, to vasodilation, and NO is also an important neurotransmitter in the brain.

 

[ebethc]

Not sure, but I've never come across any functions that endogenously generated N2O might have in the body, whereas endogenous NO has multiple functions, from its antiviral action when secreted by the immune system, to vasodilation, and NO is also an important neurotransmitter in the brain.

what does NO do for the brain?

on a related note: I've been taking a lot of cod liver oil lately, which includes omega's and vitamin A, D and E... Omega's and D have always been helpful, but the vitamin A and maybe vitamin E have REALLY helped my head, brining down inflammation / pressure in sinuses and behind my eyes... This, in turn, has really helped clear the cobwebs out of my head, and, surprisingly, my general body aches and pains... I don't know much about central sensitization, but I'm wondering if I can attack brain inflammation, all my symptoms will clear up (vs thinking that I have some form of arthritis, etc.).. Soooo, if the antioxidants in CLO can help my brain, then increased blood flow via NO would be a good companion... Just thinking out loud, here

 

[ebethc]

does N2O reduce brain inflammation?

 

[Pyrrhus]

Not sure, but I've never come across any functions that endogenously generated N2O might have in the body

Nitrous Oxide (N2O) has no natural role in the body. Generally speaking, it has entirely distinct chemical properties from Nitric Oxide (NO), which, as @Hip mentioned, has many roles in the body. Martin Pall's "ONOO" theory only applied to Nitric Oxide (NO).

However, @kangaSue mentioned that Nitrous Oxide (N2O) might stimulate the synthesis of Nitric Oxide (NO) in the brain:

There's suggestion in some studies that one of the mechanisms of nitrous oxide is that it stimulates neuronal nitric oxide synthase so maybe a nitric oxide donor might have similarly positive results.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1821130/
https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.27.1_supplement.654.21
https://www.x-mol.com/paper/1301590076588003328

what does NO do for the brain?

Generally speaking, Nitric Oxide (NO) is a short-distance signaling molecule, as it rapidly degrades over longer distances. This means it can function as a neurotransmitter, just like any other neurotransmitter.

In blood vessels, Nitric Oxide (NO) is manufactured by the cells lining the blood vessels, and it travels a short distance to the muscle cells surrounding the blood vessels, signaling to the muscle cells that they should relax and let the blood vessels expand. This is how Nitric Oxide (NO) increases blood flow.

vitamin A and maybe vitamin E have REALLY helped my head

In high doses, both vitamin A and vitamin E are anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive. So you may be experiencing decreased inflammation of some sort. This may be helpful in the short-term, but may be harmful in the long-term.

Hope this helps.

 

[Swim15]

As Hip pointed out, NO and NO2 aren't really related and I don't think they would share much in common considering NO2 has no role in bodily functions.

At this point the major depression text is interesting...have wondered several times whether or not this CFS is some sort of extreme major depression but that still doesn't explain a lot of my symptoms.

 

[kangaSue]

I can handle physical fatigue but the mental instability and feeling like I’m in a cage in my own mind with my family constantly reminding me of erratic behavior that I try my best to keep under control....definitely the worst part.

Given the erratic behaviour others have noted in you, I don't suppose NMDA encephalitis is something that's been considered as an underlying isssue (anti-N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor encephalitis - limbic encephalitis, a subacute autoimmune neurologic disorder with psychiatric manifestations that can be paraneoplastic)?
https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.16050101?mobileUi=0&

I don't know if NMDA receptors are up or down regulated with this but if nitrous oxide via being a modulator of NMDA receptors is the big "x" factor improving your symptoms, then you wouldn't be the first one here to be initially diagnosed with ME/CFS when anti-N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor encephalitis was eventually suspected to be the underlying problem after doing antibody testing, albeit a rare exception though.

That said, there is also a voltage-gated potassium channel antibody-associated limbic encephalitis
https://journals.lww.com/neurotoday...imbic_Encephalitis_Is_Increasingly_Not.3.aspx

 

[Swim15]

Thanks @kangaSue thats interesting and also what I was thinking to an extent - just in terms of rare autoimmune disorders.

I haven't noticed the same effects from ketamine or memantine...I'm not sure if that rules it out or not.

At this point nothing sticks out on my labs besides copper deficiency but I don't think that explains the extreme CFS symptoms.

 

[ebethc]

In high doses, both vitamin A and vitamin E are anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive. So you may be experiencing decreased inflammation of some sort. This may be helpful in the short-term, but may be harmful in the long-term.

Hope this helps.

immunosuppressive in what way? eg lowers NK cells? due to the Vitamin A? I've heard that Vitamin A is a little tricky..

I am careful re the upper limit of Vitamin A; I never take more than 450 mcg, and that's rare... usually it's 270 mcg

 

[Pyrrhus]

immunosuppressive in what way?

Just in the same way that any anti-inflammatory can be immunosuppressive.

Inflammation is simply activation of the immune system. If you suppress inflammation, you are effectively suppressing the immune system.

...Of course, I am only referring to very large doses of vitamin A or vitamin E over a long period of time. Lower doses or shorter periods of supplementation shouldn't be significantly immunosuppressive.