Alternative to peanut butter?

[outdamnspot]

@YippeeKi YOW !! I sincerely appreciate the help. Tried almonds before bed last night and I'm in hell today so they're clearly a no-go. I can handle a teaspoon of coconut oil in coffee.

I've been wondering if cooking in lemon juice can be problematic for people with food intolerances? I've been trying to piece together why I crashed so hard on a meat-only day and the only variable was frying chicken in lemon juice. I've read it's high histamine but I can drink it as tea with no issues. Wondering if heat changes it's properties .. also wondering if there's a way to fry chicken breast with no oil ..

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Tried almonds before bed last night and I'm in hell today

That's pretty much exactly what they did to me. It was absolute screaming hell for almost 6 days, but then, I ate quite a few of them, probably 1/4 of a cup .... nonetheless, almonds are off the menu for me, at least for now.

I've been wondering if cooking in lemon juice can be problematic for people with food intolerances? I've been trying to piece together why I crashed so hard on a meat-only day and the only variable was frying chicken in lemon juice.

I don't cook in lemon juice, since cooking destroys all the beneficial enzymes and other heat sensitive attributes, but no, I wouldn't think so, unless there's a kind of additive thing going on, where the lemon juice binds to some of the proteins and alters their chemical expression.

Seems unlikely, but so does eating a few almonds and crashing, so I'm loath to rule it out.

It's also possible, thought not entirely likely, that it might trigger the citric acid cycle, which drop-kicks glutamate into high gear as part of its action.

As an additional aside, almonds are just lousy with glutamate, which may explain both of our reactions. Go know.

You weren't frying the chicken in lemon juice, were you? More like sauteeing I'd guess. Or braising.

also wondering if there's a way to fry chicken breast with no oil ..

If you mean truly frying, as in Southern Fried Chicken, no, I'd say probably not. If you're talking about cooking on the stove, sort of like a sautee, I'd suggest a little coconut oil. It has a very high smoking point, so its chemical constituency isn't altered by high heat, and it will cook the chicken breast evenly and beautifully. You'll only need enough to coat the bottom of the pan so the chicken doesn't stick..

I know it sounds counter productive, but if you season the chicken breast first, a little salt, a little pepper, whatever herb you can tolerate (rosemary goes really well with chicken, as does thyme) and then let it sit in the fridge for an hour so, the salt, after drawing the moisture to the surface, has a chance to homeostatically withdraw back into the meat, taking the moisture with it, and you'll find that it cooks up extremely flavorfully and moist. An hour is minimum, a couple of hours is even better.

Otherwise, if you mean true frying, you might want to invest in an air fryer, though I've never used one and have no idea how well it would work. All I know is that it uses an absolute minimum of oil (if any) and purports to fry things beautifully.

As a hint: if you hit "like" on my post, I'll know that you've read it and I can come back faster.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Thank you for letting me participate ...

 

[outdamnspot]

That's pretty much exactly what they did to me. It was absolute screaming hell for almost 6 days, but then, I ate quite a few of them, probably 1/4 of a cup .... nonetheless, almonds are off the menu for me, at least for now.

I don't cook in lemon juice, since cooking destroys all the beneficial enzymes and other heat sensitive attributes, but no, I wouldn't think so, unless there's a kind of additive thing going on, where the lemon juice binds to some of the proteins and alters their chemical expression.

Seems unlikely, but so does eating a few almonds and crashing, so I'm loath to rule it out.

It's also possible, thought not entirely likely, that it might trigger the citric acid cycle, which drop-kicks glutamate into high gear as part of its action.

As an additional aside, almonds are just lousy with glutamate, which may explain both of our reactions. Go know.

You weren't frying the chicken in lemon juice, were you? More like sauteeing I'd guess. Or braising.

If you mean truly frying, as in Southern Fried Chicken, no, I'd say probably not. If you're talking about cooking on the stove, sort of like a sautee, I'd suggest a little coconut oil. It has a very high smoking point, so its chemical constituency isn't altered by high heat, and it will cook the chicken breast evenly and beautifully. You'll only need enough to coat the bottom of the pan so the chicken doesn't stick..

I know it sounds counter productive, but if you season the chicken breast first, a little salt, a little pepper, whatever herb you can tolerate (rosemary goes really well with chicken, as does thyme) and then let it sit in the fridge for an hour so, the salt, after drawing the moisture to the surface, has a chance to homeostatically withdraw back into the meat, taking the moisture with it, and you'll find that it cooks up extremely flavorfully and moist. An hour is minimum, a couple of hours is even better.

Otherwise, if you mean true frying, you might want to invest in an air fryer, though I've never used one and have no idea how well it would work. All I know is that it uses an absolute minimum of oil (if any) and purports to fry things beautifully.

As a hint: if you hit "like" on my post, I'll know that you've read it and I can come back faster.

I really appreciate your help, and feel a little guilty that I'm consuming your energy with these replies! However, when I'm in a crash and panicking it helps me to post here and get perspective, since I can quickly get suicidal or think the symptoms are going to last forever.

Yes, I was sauteeing the chicken in the lemon juice. However, I read since that lemon (and all citrus fruits) are high in salicylates? But I drink fresh lemon juice in hot water without issue. The other problem may be that the lemon I've been cooking in is bottled and contains preservatives (sulfites).

I'm nervous with coconut oil too because of salicylates (though can tolerate a teaspoon in coffee). I found that I was actually able to sautee the chicken and prevent it from sticking by wetting the pan first (it didn't taste great, but did the job). I also used leftover fat from steaks. I'll try grilling in the oven too.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I really appreciate your help, and feel a little guilty that I'm consuming your energy with these replies! However, when I'm in a crash and panicking it helps me to post here and get perspective, since I can quickly get suicidal or think the symptoms are going to last forever.

Oh, I know those reactions well. Not sitting alone with them is critical, and one of the incredibly great services this site provides.

Don't worry about over-using me ..... if I'm not doing well (I'm POTSing like crazy today, but that's better than the bone-marrow deep, drained to the soul, fatigue and brain fog, which would preclude me from responding since I'd be afraid of conveying info either poorly or erroneously), I'll let you know that I'm not at par and will answer later.

Yes, I was sauteeing the chicken in the lemon juice

That's more like boiling it, or braising it, or steaming it, depending on how much lemon juice you were using. The effect will be to tighten the fibers in it and produce and pretty bland, fairly tough and somewhat dry dinner.

But I drink fresh lemon juice in hot water without issue.

Good systemic cleanser if you don't react to the lemon juice.

The other problem may be that the lemon I've been cooking in is bottled and contains preservatives (sulfites).

Oh, crap. That's not lemon juice. That's chemicals in a bottle, flavored with lemon. Lakewood Juices produces a fresh lemon juice, cold-pressed, if you can find it it's a great option. Try Google.

I found that I was actually able to sautee the chicken and prevent it from sticking by wetting the pan first (it didn't taste great, but did the job). I also used leftover fat from steaks

The leftover fat is better than the water, but loaded with histamines. However, if you didn't react to tallow or suet, or only reacted mildly, it could be OK.

I'm reactive to effing air, and I can tolerate moderate amounts of coconut and olive oil. YMMV.

I'll try grilling in the oven too.

Grilling in the oven is actually roasting, which might dry the chicken in the absence of some sort of fat.

I'm nervous with coconut oil too because of salicylates (though can tolerate a teaspoon in coffee)

You might try using about 1/4 or even 1/8th tsp of cocnut oil, warm and melt it in your hands, then rub it all over the chicken. Follow that with what I suggested before: a good salting, maybe a little pepper, herbs like rosemary or thyme, even sweet basil will add a nice flavor, and sage is great on chicken. Let it sit, uncovered, in the fridge for as long as you can (1 hour will probably work, 2 or 3 is better), then broil it quickly in your over broiler, probably 3 minutes per side, then 3 or 4 more per side depending on the thickness of the breast. You'll have to test that out for yourself.

Salt will initially draw all the moisture to the surgace of whatever meat you're cooking, but given more time, it draws the moisture, along with all the flavorings you've added, back into the meat in order to re-establish homeostasis, and when you cook it it'll be moist, flavorful, and delish. Or at least a lot better than what you've described.

If you like lemon on chicken, hit it with sme real lemon juice as soon as you take it out of the broiler. Let it sit for about 5-10 minutes so the juices draw back in, and you're ready for a decent meal.

 

[outdamnspot]

Oh, I know those reactions well. Not sitting alone with them is critical, and one of the incredibly great services this site provides.

Don't worry about over-using me ..... if I'm not doing well (I'm POTSing like crazy today, but that's better than the bone-marrow deep, drained to the soul, fatigue and brain fog, which would preclude me from responding since I'd be afraid of conveying info either poorly or erroneously), I'll let you know that I'm not at par and will answer later.

That's more like boiling it, or braising it, or steaming it, depending on how much lemon juice you were using. The effect will be to tighten the fibers in it and produce and pretty bland, fairly tough and somewhat dry dinner.

Good systemic cleanser if you don't react to the lemon juice.

Oh, crap. That's not lemon juice. That's chemicals in a bottle, flavored with lemon. Lakewood Juices produces a fresh lemon juice, cold-pressed, if you can find it it's a great option. Try Google.

The leftover fat is better than the water, but loaded with histamines. However, if you didn't react to tallow or suet, or only reacted mildly, it could be OK.

I'm reactive to effing air, and I can tolerate moderate amounts of coconut and olive oil. YMMV.

Grilling in the oven is actually roasting, which might dry the chicken in the absence of some sort of fat.

You might try using about 1/4 or even 1/8th tsp of cocnut oil, warm and melt it in your hands, then rub it all over the chicken. Follow that with what I suggested before: a good salting, maybe a little pepper, herbs like rosemary or thyme, even sweet basil will add a nice flavor, and sage is great on chicken. Let it sit, uncovered, in the fridge for as long as you can (1 hour will probably work, 2 or 3 is better), then broil it quickly in your over broiler, probably 3 minutes per side, then 3 or 4 more per side depending on the thickness of the breast. You'll have to test that out for yourself.

Salt will initially draw all the moisture to the surgace of whatever meat you're cooking, but given more time, it draws the moisture, along with all the flavorings you've added, back into the meat in order to re-establish homeostasis, and when you cook it it'll be moist, flavorful, and delish. Or at least a lot better than what you've described.

If you like lemon on chicken, hit it with sme real lemon juice as soon as you take it out of the broiler. Let it sit for about 5-10 minutes so the juices draw back in, and you're ready for a decent meal.

Okay, well the bottled lemon juice triggering a crash makes sense -- because I frequently cook fish in it and was beginning to suspect I was intolerant of fish, but it's likely the preservatives. However, my last attempt at zero carb/carnivore, I crashed by day 4 and had used bottled lemon juice the day before (so thus figured I hadn't given the diet a fair chance).

Not having much choice, because I'm reacting to everything, I went back to zero carb this week and exclusively ate chicken and steak (other than the single almonds incidence). I had 3 days of very high energy, but my sleep got progressively worse each night .. it felt like too much adrenaline: I couldn't fall asleep easily, had nightmares, woke up out of breath etc. Today I've crashed again. So this diet isn't for me; I feel clear-headed but it's just too much fatigue and is probably stressing my body more.

As I said, experimenting with the light olive oil last week also yielded mixed results -- less inflammation, but it felt too *parasympathetic*. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that heating olive oil can dissolve some of the compounds and it may be tolerated better. If I did cook my meat before bed in 2-3 tablespoons of olive oil, would I be consuming a similar amount of fat to when I just drink it off a tablespoon? I guess it's something that may be worth experimenting with to try increase fat intake.

Also, you mentioned leftover fat from steaks would be loaded with histamines. If I'm trimming the fat off fresh steaks and keeping it in the fridge for a few hours, then cooking the chicken in it a little later the same day, would it really be an issue?

.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Not having much choice, because I'm reacting to everything

Oh God, I soooooo hear that ..... I wish I had an answer for you. What's worked for me is the most balanced diet I can cobble together, a more limited amount of protein than you're taking in on the carnivore diet (the body can only utilize somewhere between 25-30 gms at a time ..... the rest is converted to fat), brken down into 3 small, 20-30 gms of protein, meal-ettes thru-out the day and totaling around 60-65 gms a day.

Two things that have helped me immensely with both healing and reactivity are desiccated beef liver powder from New Zealand, only ..... there are stringent regulations and oversight on the raising and treating of beeves in New Zealand that exist nowhere else that I know of, not sure about Australia, and we all know about the US. These provide, among other things, BCAAs and forms of sulfur critical to multiple functions and enzyme systems. And my earliest intervention, large amnts of magnesium, broken down into small doses thru-out the day. When I'm highly reactive and dealing with chest-ripping, crippling anxiety/panic attacks and an odd form of PEM, I take 50 mgs an hour (smetimes, based on symptoms, I'll boost it to 100 mgs for a few hours, then go back to 50 mgs, with Vit C added every 3 hours or so, about 500 mgs).

I don't know if these will help you, but they've saved my life, reactive little quivery puddle that it still is.

If I'm trimming the fat off fresh steaks and keeping it in the fridge for a few hours, then cooking the chicken in it a little later the same day, would it really be an issue?

No, under those conditions, absolutely not. Or at least none that I can figure into the equation.

Hope you're holding up OK ..... this is truly hellish, but I believe that it can gradually be improved, and possibly overcome somewhere down the road.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

If I did cook my meat before bed in 2-3 tablespoons of olive oil, would I be consuming a similar amount of fat to when I just drink it off a tablespoon?

Oops, forgot to address this in previous post .....

Heating olive oil, especially to the levels required for cooking a steak, can produce a lot of reactive changes in the oil, most of them undesirable, including free radicals. How about cooking your steak in a little of the left-over fat from previous steak, then turning down the flame considerably after removing the meat, and gently heating the olive oil slightly then using that as a sort of sauce for your steak? You could add some tarragon to it and a little sea salt and whisk it a bit for a sort of sauce-like consistency.

 

[outdamnspot]

Oh God, I soooooo hear that ..... I wish I had an answer for you. What's worked for me is the most balanced diet I can cobble together, a more limited amount of protein than you're taking in on the carnivore diet (the body can only utilize somewhere between 25-30 gms at a time ..... the rest is converted to fat), brken down into 3 small, 20-30 gms of protein, meal-ettes thru-out the day and totaling around 60-65 gms a day.

Two things that have helped me immensely with both healing and reactivity are desiccated beef liver powder from New Zealand, only ..... there are stringent regulations and oversight on the raising and treating of beeves in New Zealand that exist nowhere else that I know of, not sure about Australia, and we all know about the US. These provide, among other things, BCAAs and forms of sulfur critical to multiple functions and enzyme systems. And my earliest intervention, large amnts of magnesium, broken down into small doses thru-out the day. When I'm highly reactive and dealing with chest-ripping, crippling anxiety/panic attacks and an odd form of PEM, I take 50 mgs an hour (smetimes, based on symptoms, I'll boost it to 100 mgs for a few hours, then go back to 50 mgs, with Vit C added every 3 hours or so, about 500 mgs).

I don't know if these will help you, but they've saved my life, reactive little quivery puddle that it still is.

No, under those conditions, absolutely not. Or at least none that I can figure into the equation.

Hope you're holding up OK ..... this is truly hellish, but I believe that it can gradually be improved, and possibly overcome somewhere down the road.

Thanks as per usual for the help. I tried egg yolks last night for extra fat; I don't know if i tolerated them because I slept poorly but I don't feel especially sick today so it seems worth trying again.

I will research the beef liver powder. I looked up one nz brand and it said the cows are from both NZ and Aus so buying locally might be okay. Do you think it could be tolerable even if I had trouble with the fats like tallow?

 

[outdamnspot]

I did ask on a histamine-intolerance Facebook group and a lot of people with histamine issues said they couldn't handle liver powder ..

I sometimes wonder if I could be reacting to something in the Vitamin C I take. It's time-release and has fillers:
Cellulose gum, dicalcium phosphate, magnesium stearate (vegetable grade), coating (hypromellose, glycerin).

It's this one: https://au.iherb.com/pr/Natural-Factors-Vitamin-C-Time-Release-1000-mg-180-Tablets/2556

That said, time-release Vitamin C is the only thing that calms adrenaline and puts me to sleep (regular Vitamin C doesn't work the same way) so I'm not sure I could survive without it.

 

[perchance dreamer]

Avocado oil has a high smoking point and a neutral flavor. I often use it to saute meat and vegetables.

I have a problem with cashew butter, but it's not an intolerance. I find it so delicious that I can't resist overeating it, which makes me gain weight.

 

[outdamnspot]

Can food reactions persist for more than a day?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Do you think it could be tolerable even if I had trouble with the fats like tallow?

Not sure, but the liver is NOT defatted, so probably approach with caution

I sometimes wonder if I could be reacting to something in the Vitamin C I take. It's time-release and has fillers:
Cellulose gum, dicalcium phosphate, magnesium stearate (vegetable grade), coating (hypromellose, glycerin).

I avoid time release anything because of the likelihood of masses of additives that could cause reactions, and also because there's a possibility that it might not break down sufficiently for adequate release, no matter the time involved

But if it works for you, maybe you could find another brand with different additives and see if that reduces reactions.

Avocado oil has a high smoking point and a neutral flavor. I often use it to saute meat and vegetables.

Avocado oil !!! I knew I'd forgotten something ... great call, @perchance dreamer, that might be the ideal answer.

Can food reactions persist for more than a day?

Generally, things like allergic reactions present fairly close to ingestion. Not sure about SIBO reactions or other possibilities, but I'm not sure what you're referring to: the presentation of first signs, or how long they endure after becoming apparent.

 

[outdamnspot]

@YippeeKi YOW !! by reactions, I guess I meant symptoms like gut inflammation, poor sleep, fatigue etc. It seems everytime I eat just meat for a few days, my digestion is very happy but I become unbearably weak.

I tried to eat egg yolks last week to get some fat and was fine on day 1, then reacted on day 2 and some symptoms (like diarrhea) persisted for a day after that. So I went back to meat only again for 5 days and felt like I was going to collapse yesterday.

I tried peanut butter again last night and I'm not sure if I'm having a food reaction today (I feel a little 'sick', but I don't have the overt symptoms like diarrhea, anxiety etc.) but I also have more energy. So it seems like my body definitely requires fat but then I have to cope with reacting or partially reacting to fats. I might try Hydrocortisone tomorrow, so maybe if it helps this would be easier to cope with ..

 

[outdamnspot]

@ChrisD when you mentioned earlier in the thread that you react to nut butters, I was wondering if that meant raw nuts too? I had trouble on the oilier, natural peanut butter, then switched to the regular one and the reaction I get isn't as severe. Cashew butter was bad, but it was also natural and very oily.

In researching fats that might be safe to try, I thought of pumpkin seeds, but they aren't really fatty enough (not on par with peanut butter etc.). Cashews are listed as low salicylates, so I'm wondering if because I didn't tolerate the butter, I might still tolerate the raw nuts.

 

[outdamnspot]

@YippeeKi YOW !! Did you ever try ghee?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@YippeeKi YOW !! Did you ever try ghee?

Yes, for the butyric acid primarily. I had no bad reactions to it, and I still use it intermittently because I get most of my fat requirements from cheese, olive oil, and coconut oil.

I think you might find it helpful, based on what I recall of your reactions profile. It has quite a few benefits that might help you, unless you react to regular butter. Ghee is clarified butter. It would also be an excellent fat to use in cooking, searing steaks, etc, since it has a very high smoke point so it can be heated to levels that break down all other fats, except for coconut oil.

If you're going to try ghee, look for grass fed, organic ghee, very easy to find over here, but not sure where you are geographically (Australia?) and how available it would be to you.

 

[outdamnspot]

Can someone, maybe @Gondwanaland, clear up if lemon juice is high salicylates? It's listed as low but some lists say all citrus fruits must be avoided. I have painful burning urination and it's the one thing that helps so I'm curious

 

[Gondwanaland]

Can someone, maybe @Gondwanaland, clear up if lemon juice is high salicylates? It's listed as low but some lists say all citrus fruits must be avoided. I have painful burning urination and it's the one thing that helps so I'm curious

I think it can be variable, but in the end your personal tolerance/intolerance is what really matters.

 

[outdamnspot]

I think it can be variable, but in the end your personal tolerance/intolerance is what really matters.

Thanks. It's also listed as a histamine liberator but it's only ever made me feel good so I'll stick to it