Alternative to peanut butter?

[skwag]

Hm, yeah my parents make fish so I am forced to eat it 1-2 times a week. Is histamine more an issue with canned/smoked fish?

It just has to do with whether the fish is fresh or not. If the fish has had time for the bacteria and enzymes to turn histadine into histamine, then it will be high. The canning process is pretty bad in this respect. Not sure about smoking. It probably depends how the fish was stored before and after the smoking. Freezing halts the histamine production, so fish that is frozen on the boat is generally ok.

 

[outdamnspot]

I feel a little better today compared to yesterday -- not so much physically, but at least not hit with the same brain fog and apathy. Maybe my body had to adjust to the tallow. However, I still have sinus congestion and wake up with instant diarrhea, which has become a new problem these past few weeks. I suppose I will have to experiment with cutting out eggs before bed, at least for a day, to see if they're an issue.

 

[outdamnspot]

I cut out eggs yesterday as an experiment. Some symptoms are better today (less gut inflammation, anxiety, nausea etc.), which I kind of feared, since they're such a vital part of my diet due to being a cheap source of protein. However, I did also try the tallow again before bed: for whatever reason, it causes instant nasal congestion, which then completely messes up my sleep (because I can't breathe properly). Not really sure what I can eat now, since I don't think meat/chicken for every meal is affordable.

 

[skwag]

Not really sure what I can eat now, since I don't think meat/chicken for every meal is affordable.

You might tolerate the yolks better than the whites. I think that is the case for most people. Maybe worth a shot.

Sorry to hear the tallow didn't work out. You could also ask a butcher for fat trimmings or suet, and eat that with your meat. It's the same fat that goes into making tallow, just raw and thus more fresh.

 

[outdamnspot]

You might tolerate the yolks better than the whites. I think that is the case for most people. Maybe worth a shot.

Sorry to hear the tallow didn't work out. You could also ask a butcher for fat trimmings or suet, and eat that with your meat. It's the same fat that goes into making tallow, just raw and thus more fresh.

Thanks for your help. I trim the fat off my steaks and cook them in that and have never had an issue so there must be something in the tallow process that doesn't agree with me. All I could find is that it's high in amines. I'll try the yolks alone.

 

[outdamnspot]

You might tolerate the yolks better than the whites. I think that is the case for most people. Maybe worth a shot.

Sorry to hear the tallow didn't work out. You could also ask a butcher for fat trimmings or suet, and eat that with your meat. It's the same fat that goes into making tallow, just raw and thus more fresh.

I went to a butcher today. I asked for fat trimmings, but he said trimmings meant fatty meat (which he was out of), so he just gave me just a chunk of pure white fat. That should be correct, right? Also, he said tallow and fat cut directly from the animal were the same thing, but I'm guessing that's not right, since tallow is rendered?

 

[skwag]

so he just gave me just a chunk of pure white fat. That should be correct, right?

In the US, trimmings are just the fat that is cut from meat before it is sold. This might have a little bit of meat attached, but should be mostly fat. Your chunk of pure white fat might also be suet, which is the fat found in the abdominal cavity, around the kidneys for example. So, I'm not sure what you picked up, but it sounds good either way.

Also, he said tallow and fat cut directly from the animal were the same thing, but I'm guessing that's not right, since tallow is rendered?

I agree with you. Tallow is rendered fat.

 

[outdamnspot]

In the US, trimmings are just the fat that is cut from meat before it is sold. This might have a little bit of meat attached, but should be mostly fat. Your chunk of pure white fat might also be suet, which is the fat found in the abdominal cavity, around the kidneys for example. So, I'm not sure what you picked up, but it sounds good either way.


I agree with you. Tallow is rendered fat.

Do you have any idea how long it might be ok to leave the raw fat refrigerated for? I got it two days ago but have been nervous about trying it; probably should have frozen it

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Do you have any idea how long it might be ok to leave the raw fat refrigerated for?

Not absolutely certain, but I'd guess that, depending on how cold your fridge is, about a week. Animal fat is very polite ...... when it goes bad, you can generally smell it. Again, not certain, you might want to speak to google ....

This doesn't take into account histamine production in slowly aging products, or what kind of cow the raw fat came from: Grass fed and organically raised? Farm-Factory raised? Heavily medicated with antibiotics, rBGH, and God knows what else?

Know your cow. Ask the butcher, they should know the provenance.

Good luck. This is a hellish problem. I feel your pain because I have your pain, tho with a somewhat less restricted range of dietary possibilities. And it's an effing pain.

 

[outdamnspot]

Not absolutely certain, but I'd guess that, depending on how cold your fridge is, about a week. Animal fat is very polite ...... when it goes bad, you can generally smell it. Again, not certain, you might want to speak to google ....

This doesn't take into account histamine production in slowly aging products, or what kind of cow the raw fat came from: Grass fed and organically raised? Farm-Factory raised? Heavily medicated with antibiotics, rBGH, and God knows what else?

Know your cow. Ask the butcher, they should know the provenance.

Good luck. This is a hellish problem. I feel your pain because I have your pain, tho with a somewhat less restricted range of dietary possibilities. And it's an effing pain.

Thanks for your help hellish is a good description for it. The worst part is that sometimes it doesn't even make sense: three days ago, I had fish for breakfast, steak for lunch and chicken breast for dinner (all safe foods theoretically) and had one of the worst crashes in memory the next day.

I got the fat from an organic butcher so quality wise it should be okay.

I did reintroduce light olive oil and am tolerating it which is good since I need fat. Almonds (raw) gave me an instant negative reaction.

However as I said before living on meat 2-3 times a day is becoming financially unsustainable. I'm thinking of trying egg yolks tonight to see how I tolerate them.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I did reintroduce light olive oil and am tolerating it which is good since I need fat. Almonds (raw) gave me an instant negative reaction.

I tolerate regular virgin cold-pressed olive oil very well, and it's just filled to the brim with good stuff for 'ya, hope you continue tolerating it .... almonds are off the table for me (yuk yuk wheeeeeze), they produce an almost instant, extremely negative glutamate reaction and less than a half ounce laid me out for 3 days early on in my grapplingw with this illness.

I rely largely on raw milk cheese (very high in K2) for protein, but if you have dairy issues, that's not much help for you. Gonna have to think on this one ...... I seem to remember that peanut butter isn't working for you, right? Hmmmmm getting tougher ..... I'll be back ....

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

@outdamnspot
A whole egg has approx 6 gms of protein. Egg yolks aren’t a great source of protein (egg whites have 3x as much), and you’d have to eat 3 yolks to equal one gram of equivalent protein, which, if my math is correct (and with this illness, go know) would be (using a 6 oz serving of chicken as protein equivalent) approx. 6-7 gms of protein. So to equal 1 aver size chicken breast (a little larger than the size of your palm), you’d have to eat about 15-17 egg yolks. The chicken breast is the better choice.

Steak is even better, since beef contains a number of critical nutrients other than protein which chicken doesn’t, and also provides more protein, about 8-9 gms per oz……a cost efficient way to get steak would be to buy a large london broil steak (they look a lot like a slab of top sirloin) and cut it down into 4-6 oz servings, which I wrap loosely in wax paper, after wiping them down til as dry as poss, and store in a ziplock plastic bag in the coldest part of the fridge. Keeps very well. I like London Broil, and not just because it’s relatively inexpensive ….. not the tenderest cut, but if you eat it med-rare, as we do, it’s juicy, relatively tender, and has a wonderful, very clean, beefy flavor.
Between 1 chicken breast providing about 35 gms of protein, and 5 oz of steak providing approx 41 – 46 gms of protein, you’ve more than satisfied you daily protein requirement, without even counting any other sources of small amounts that you might consume in a day.

Remember, high intake of protein stresses your kidneys, so unless you’re on a nutrition or bulking program that requires very high amounts of protein, 81 gms a day should do it.

More later … still thinking ….

 

[outdamnspot]

@YippeeKi YOW !! thanks for your help. Actually, not sure about olive oil now I'd been drinking it before bed, so would just fall asleep after .. I had some with dinner last night and it induced immediate brain fog/sleepiness .. also had early awakening and feel crashed today .. which is usually a sign of a food reaction. Maybe I'll adjust. Who knows. I remember Alex saying that continual use of olive oil might help reduce salicylate sensitivity due to anti-inflammatory properties, even though it contains salicylates.

I was looking at egg yolks more as a supplementary nutrient/protein source, rather than a meal in itself.

Peanut butter is a problem, but I was eating it alongside eggs, which turned out to be a bigger problem, so maybe I will tolerate a little peanut butter.

Really getting fed up with this food stuff, since it's just like falling deeper and deeper into a hole. There's a probiotic I responded to in the past (Symbioflor 2) and I still have a bottle left .. wondering if it could help reduce these sensitivities.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I had some with dinner last night and it induced immediate brain fog/sleepiness .. also had early awakening and feel crashed today .. which is usually a sign of a food reaction. Maybe I'll adjust. Who knows

I think it's worth a shot if you can find a way to use its sleep-inducing/drowsiness properties to your advantage. Olive il has a lot of positive properties, not sure about lite, but I believe that those properties would carry over, maybe in a somewhat reduced form

I was looking at egg yolks more as a supplementary nutrient/protein source, rather than a meal in itself.

Wasn't sure .... in that case, are you sure you wont react to yolks? High in sulfur, which is great if you don't react to that, and also in other beneficial components.

Peanut butter is a problem, but I was eating it alongside eggs, which turned out to be a bigger problem, so maybe I will tolerate a little peanut butter.

I'd add either the egg yolk or the peanut butter, but not both at once or too close to each other, time-frame wise, or you won't know what you're reacting to. I find that difficult .. the slow, sequential adding in or subtracting of things to determine what works, what doesn't.

Really getting fed up with this food stuff, since it's just like falling deeper and deeper into a hole.

It really is falling into Alice's rabbit hole ..... it goes on and on, and nothing does what you think it will, and it gets just deeply frustrating. Don't give up .... it takes a while, but you'll eventually hit on a good roster of combinations or additions, and little by little you'll bring yourself back. Sloooooowly. Which is the drag. Well, part of the drag.

There's a probiotic I responded to in the past (Symbioflor 2) and I still have a bottle left .. wondering if it could help reduce these sensitivities.

DEFINITELY worth a try. Anything that helps, helps. My husband keeps reminding me of the 10% .... yeah, it's not the whole fix, but a bunch of 10%ers will get to 100 sooner or later. Persistence.

Hang in there. This is hell, but life could be a lot worse. I give thanks daily that, even with all its current flaws, I was born in the US (UK would have been decent, too), and not in the parts of this battered world that are being torn apart and are slowly, agonizingly, dying.

That's not the cheery thought I wanted to leave you with. Just know that things are going to get better, you're going to make them better, and everyone here will help to every extent they can.

Chin up !!!

 

[outdamnspot]

Just found this from @alex3619 while searching old threads. Perhaps this explains why tallow made me so sick?

"Too much saturated fat can be a problem, but there is evidence (not conclusive, indicative) that a fat called arachidonic acid (long chain omega-6) that is high in animal fats is a real problem in CFS. It is pro-inflammatory, although it is also an essential fat, and the body has trouble controlling its conversion to pro-inflammatory hormones if there is the least problem with low cortisol or cortisol regulation."

@alex3619 I'm presuming this isn't unique to rendered fat? I just bought a bunch more suet today because the last stuff went off before I could try it

 

[alex3619]

No, its not unique to rendered fat, but is particularly high in some forms of rendered fat. Its found in most foods in at least small amounts, but is particularly high in animal fat and organ meats.

 

[outdamnspot]

I think it's worth a shot if you can find a way to use its sleep-inducing/drowsiness properties to your advantage. Olive il has a lot of positive properties, not sure about lite, but I believe that those properties would carry over, maybe in a somewhat reduced form

Wasn't sure .... in that case, are you sure you wont react to yolks? High in sulfur, which is great if you don't react to that, and also in other beneficial components.

I'd add either the egg yolk or the peanut butter, but not both at once or too close to each other, time-frame wise, or you won't know what you're reacting to. I find that difficult .. the slow, sequential adding in or subtracting of things to determine what works, what doesn't.

It really is falling into Alice's rabbit hole ..... it goes on and on, and nothing does what you think it will, and it gets just deeply frustrating. Don't give up .... it takes a while, but you'll eventually hit on a good roster of combinations or additions, and little by little you'll bring yourself back. Sloooooowly. Which is the drag. Well, part of the drag.

DEFINITELY worth a try. Anything that helps, helps. My husband keeps reminding me of the 10% .... yeah, it's not the whole fix, but a bunch of 10%ers will get to 100 sooner or later. Persistence.

Hang in there. This is hell, but life could be a lot worse. I give thanks daily that, even with all its current flaws, I was born in the US (UK would have been decent, too), and not in the parts of this battered world that are being torn apart and are slowly, agonizingly, dying.

That's not the cheery thought I wanted to leave you with. Just know that things are going to get better, you're going to make them better, and everyone here will help to every extent they can.

Chin up !!!

Thanks for your help and encouragement

The situation with olive oil is a bit confusing. My nervous system tends towards sympathetic activation -- I am usually running high on adrenaline, which actually has some benefits in terms of alertness, motivation etc., even if it isn't always pleasant.

Since introducing the olive oil a few days ago, I've noticed an obvious anti-inflammatory effect -- less anger, anxiety etc. And it seems to shift my nervous system towards sympathetic. This does help energy, but also makes some symptoms worse: when not running on 'adrenaline', my POTS is worse, I'm dizzier, foggier etc. I noticed this in the past with other treatments that activated the parasympathetic system.

I am pretty sure it's the olive oil, because the improvement in mood and energy are obvious but it's a shame it makes other things worse. Sometimes when I take a food/supplement (e.g. those high in magnesium) that corrects a deficiency, I notice a major drug-like effect at first .. and thought maybe that's why the EVOO hits me so hard now, but I can't see what deficiency it would be correcting? I used it for a few years during Keto without noticing anything. Or maybe it's something to do with it's immune system properties? I don't know .. nothing is simple unfortunately ..

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

My nervous system tends towards sympathetic activation -- I am usually running high on adrenaline, which actually has some benefits in terms of alertness, motivation etc

OK. I'm following so far ....

This does help energy, but also makes some symptoms worse: when not running on 'adrenaline', my POTS is worse, I'm dizzier, foggier etc

And again, so far, so good ...

Since introducing the olive oil a few days ago, I've noticed an obvious anti-inflammatory effect -- less anger, anxiety etc. And it seems to shift my nervous system towards sympathetic

OK, here's where I start hitting confusion .... if the EVOO shifts your nervous system towards the sympathetic. isn't that where you normally function, apparently more or less comfortably, or at least predictably ....

I noticed this in the past with other treatments that activated the parasympathetic system.

And now I'm like, lost in a lonely wood ... you said above that the EVOO seemed to shift you towards sympathetic, but now it seems to be activating the calming, "eat & digest" parasympathetic and my poor little somewhat-stunned- today-head is spinning wildly.....PLEASE help me out here, I know I'm missing something obvious, but I can't seem to find my way to it ....

thought maybe that's why the EVOO hits me so hard now, but I can't see what deficiency it would be correcting?

Whichever way, this is a puzzlement ..... I can't immediately figure out what the EVOO would be providing that could throw you ANS off so profoundly, but then, that's a hallmark of this bizarre, baffling, riddle-me-this illness ..... I'm going to sleep on it and come at this with a fresh brain. In the interim, any additional input you could give me would be greatly appreciated ....

 

[outdamnspot]

OK. I'm following so far ....

And again, so far, so good ...

OK, here's where I start hitting confusion .... if the EVOO shifts your nervous system towards the sympathetic. isn't that where you normally function, apparently more or less comfortably, or at least predictably ....

And now I'm like, lost in a lonely wood ... you said above that the EVOO seemed to shift you towards sympathetic, but now it seems to be activating the calming, "eat & digest" parasympathetic and my poor little somewhat-stunned- today-head is spinning wildly.....PLEASE help me out here, I know I'm missing something obvious, but I can't seem to find my way to it ....

Whichever way, this is a puzzlement ..... I can't immediately figure out what the EVOO would be providing that could throw you ANS off so profoundly, but then, that's a hallmark of this bizarre, baffling, riddle-me-this illness ..... I'm going to sleep on it and come at this with a fresh brain. In the interim, any additional input you could give me would be greatly appreciated ....

I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I meant to say it shifts it towards the parasympathetic. It's all so confusing because there are days where I eat an inflammatory food before bed (mayonnaise, peanut butter, boiled eggs etc.) and it messes my gut up, and I feel very sick/have diarrhea, but have more energy than ever, maybe because my body is pumping out cortisol to fight inflammation? That can last 3-4 days, then I crash again.

With other treatments (an earthing sheet, certain probiotics, possibly the EVOO), I become more parasympathetic and less inflamed, which can buffer against crashes. But then as I say, overall POTS etc. all gets worse. I am quite certain it's EVOO because I looked at my food diary and a couple of days ago I had 6 tablespoons in one day (because we had nothing to eat) and the next day my POTS was terrible. Last night I had 2 tablespoons and am a bit better today.

I wonder if that leaves any other fats/oils to experiment with? I do not want to try suet because of what happened with tallow (and Alex's explanation makes sense). Most other cooking oils are high on Omega 6. Avocados gave me horrible salicylate symptoms. Sigh. Maybe some raw mixed nuts, though not ideal, could be better than the oils and spreads.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I wonder if that leaves any other fats/oils to experiment with?

I can't remember if you've tried coconut oil, high in medium chain fatty acids and is broken dwn by the body into ketone bodies, which are thought to provide an alternative source of energy, other than glucose, for brain cells.... I use it to round out my fats intake with no ill effects, but then I also use EVOO with no obvious bad effect, so go know ...... there's walnut oil, but it's mega-high in glutamates, so it would depend on how you react to those little buggers, and it's also pretty spendy ....rapeseed oil (not canola) is highly recommended by some, others say it's crap; it's also a member of the brassicaceae family, so if you have thyroid problems, especially hypo, it's probably not a good idea in any but smaller amounts .... almond oil is also high in glutamates, and I seem to recall that you had a problem with almonds? ......there's soybean oil, but soybeans screw with hormonal balance and the endocrine system generally, and the oil is highly processed and generally not a good choice. Additionally, all vegetable oils produce high advanced glycation end products (AGEs), sometimes known as glycotoxins, which contribute to oxidative stress and inflammation. .... there's grapeseed oil, which should be fairly body/brain/ANS neutral in terms of potential damages, and contains natural antioxidants in the form of polyphenols which may help prevent Alzheimer’s disease, at least in several mice studies. ......

That's pretty much all I can dredge up for now, am exhausted and edging into serious fog .....