• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Alternative Non-Surgical Possibilities for Addressing CCI/AAI or Other Serious Neck Issues

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,936
I use an inversion table. It is helpful and i don’t get the rebound effect I get with traction, so maybe it’s like gentler traction applied more evenly? Only downside is if you don’t use some kind of harness it will fuck up your ankles
@BadBadBear

I plan to buy one today and start immediatly. I am convinced that my fibromyalgia and my headaches are related to a kind of myelopathy (positional cervical cord compression and cervical instability). I removed my pillow which helps a bit, but I think the inversion table is the answer for me if i want to avoid surgery.
 

splusholia

Senior Member
Messages
240
Could near infrared be if any help?

I’m really clutching at straws to try and add things into my routine that might help 🙈. I have the symptoms but no money for an MRI or surgery...
 

perchance dreamer

Senior Member
Messages
1,699
At one time I asked my eye doctor about an inversion table. Since both my mother and my grandmother had glaucoma, she told me not to do this type of therapy since I have this family risk.

If you have glaucoma or if it runs in your family, I'd ask your eye doctor about the inversion table.
 

winterschlaf

sleeping satellite
Messages
88
Location
rural scotland
@Wayne

do you know this site?

https://treningogrehab.no/atlas-joint-instability-causes-consequences-solutions/

this PT seems really aware of craniocervical instability, internal jugular compression, chiari and intracranial hypertension!

Wow thank you for sharing this, @pattismith.

It's pretty dense but the sections I've been able to read and assimilate have given me a better insight into a whole range of symptoms I experience, and offer up some possible structural causes.

I expect many of us have dedicated quite some precious energy to researching around this subject - this article saves a lot of time and effort, imo.

Would that this PT were operating in my area!
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
@BadBadBear

I plan to buy one today and start immediatly. I am convinced that my fibromyalgia and my headaches are related to a kind of myelopathy (positional cervical cord compression and cervical instability). I removed my pillow which helps a bit, but I think the inversion table is the answer for me if i want to avoid surgery.
Let us know how your inversion therapy goes. It looks like there is potential there. It would be nice to see the opinion of a PT who does traction therapy.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,936
Let us know how your inversion therapy goes. It looks like there is potential there. It would be nice to see the opinion of a PT who does traction therapy.
The idea was good, but I don't recommend it to nauseous people….unfortunately I am one of those, and I had to give up after some trials. It seems that my neck pain was mostly from muscle issue (exarcebated by hyperthyroidism), and it went away with just massages...
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,306
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Cautionary Note: -- Fairly Long Post

I wrote quite a bit about my Atlas Profilax procedure in the first post in this thread, and how it worked so well for me. The thing about getting this done is that it's somewhat expensive (around $250-300), and since there are so few practitioners (in the U.S.), it's often not easily accessible.

For a long time this did not present a problem. I was told before getting it that it's usually a one-time "repositioning", after which it's relatively rare to need it done again. Fortunately, that was the case for me, and I was able to sustain my initial significant benefits for the next 10 years or so.

I then had the most unfortunate experience of experiencing many negative "side effects" from being given an anti-nausea medication (Promethazine, aka Phenergen) after going to the ER in February 2018 with extreme abdominal pain. I wrote about those experiences in the following thread: -- Need Advice - Having Very Adverse Reactions to Promethazine (Phenergan).

One of those side effects was some extreme contracting and spasming of my muscles and connective tissue. Parts of my body that I'd had relatively minor problems with all of a sudden became major problems. My right knee locked up, as did my left ankle, and right shoulder. My lower back became very fragile, as did my whole neck area.

A few months later, I was able to see my original AtlasProfilax practitioner, who told me my atlas had really gotten whacked out of position. He was able to get in back in position, and within a half hour or so, I felt like a different person, physically, emotionally, etc. Unfortunately, this only lasted about 2-3 days, before I was back to not doing nearly as well.

I was able to see my AP practitioner again about 6 weeks later. Since my initial AP had held about 10 years, I assumed it was still in place after only 6 weeks. Turns out, it wasn't. Apparently, the drug that had convulsed my muscles and tightened my ligaments had left some kind of residual effects in my body, so that my body could no longer sustain the atlas repositioning as it had done 10 years earlier.

This realization felt pretty devastating to me at the time, but it got me to thinking a little more deeply about the AP technique itself. I described it in detail in THIS POST, and a big component of it is to use a special kind of massage tool around the edges of the atlas--the boney ridge right behind the ears. This is to loosen the ligaments holding the atlas "out of place", so that the atlas can then "slide" back into place (and be held by two "pins" in the skull that normally give it a great deal of stability).

I decided to just start massaging those areas with my fingertips and thumbs on a regular basis, and see if I could get things to relax on my own. I was pretty shocked at how incredibly tender and painful those areas were. And how areas I thought had gotten worked out could become painful again after just a short period of time. It seemed like I was working through "layers" of tightness and constriction.

But after just a few days (4-5 or so), I started to notice a big difference in how I felt when I walked. It was no longer such a struggle to walk through the "normal" pain and "heaviness" in my neck. Which would often make me lean over, and put my hands on my knees until I was able to regain some semblence of functionality. The necessity of taking those kinds of breaks was pretty much gone after about a week.

I noticed another, almost "peculiar" thing. As things shifted significantly in my neck area, I was also concurrently feeling a notable difference in my pectoral muscles. They felt a little tender at first, but in very short order, felt quite a bit stronger. It was as if they had been "reactivated", and were now able to help hold my neck in place a little better. I also noticed that besides being able to walk more comfortably, I felt I was walking taller as well. Also... I noticed that within about a week, my endurance and resiliency while walking had literally doubled.

After only about a week or so of "self-massage" along the edges of the atlas, I felt I had gotten similar degrees of improvement to when I had the AtlasPROfilax adjustment done again after 10 years. I again thought I was likely set for a good amount of time, as AP adjustments usually stay in place. But similarly to what happened earlier, I discovered that if I didn't work on those areas behind my ears on a regular basis, I could easily lose my benefits.

Somewhat disconcertingly, I also discovered that even if I did do those massage techniques every day, I could still slip into a cycle where my neck and cranial stability were being challenged. So I've continued to look for ways to bolster my neck and cranial stability. I mentioned earlier in THIS POST that acupuncture in the brainstem area helps a lot. I also mentioned in my original post on this thread that applying topical DMSO regularly on my neck area(s) helps as well.

So, it's an ongoing challenge for me to maintain my improved degree of stability in my neck and cranial area(s). One other thing I've discovered is doing doing some thoracic extension exercises regularly helps me a lot. I thought for a while that if I did them 2-3x/week, it was probably all I needed to do. However, I was doing some work on a plumbing project this week that put my body in unusual position(s), and I decided to do those exercises daily to perhaps provide a little insurance for my body.

Yesterday was the first day in about a week I didn't do them, and I could definitely feel it in my body this morning that something wasn't quite up to snuff. So it appears to me at this time I need to do those thoracic extensions stretches daily, at least for a while yet. -- So many moving parts! :rolleyes: :)

To wrap up, I feel I've learned a number of good things to help stablize my neck area(s), but since it's often difficult for our bodies to incorporate even good things, it's probably best to start out slowly with doing just about anything. Starting them one at a time would also probably be a safe route to go. Of all the things I've mentioned, I'd suggest starting out with the self-massage behind the ears that mimics the AP adjustment. It feels very safe, and may give the fastest results.

Good luck to those who decide to give this a try! :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,306
Location
Ashland, Oregon
Thanks, @Wayne. Your experimentation (sadly, this is what it is, right?) benefits many of us. I am always grateful to reminded of the routes you have explored.

Hi @Jyoti -- I saw on another thread that you were still considering doing the AtlasPROfilax technique, and decided it was time for me to make an indepth post on how a person might do it for themselves. -- Thanks for the encouragement! :)
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,306
Location
Ashland, Oregon
So, it's an ongoing challenge for me to maintain my improved degree of stability in my neck and cranial area(s). One other thing I've discovered is doing doing some thoracic extension exercises regularly helps me a lot.

UPDATE:

I continue to do the thoracic extension exercises that I described in the above linked post, and continue to experience improvements with my chronic neck problems. I began doing so well last year, that I began to think about trying a part time driving job to see if I might be able to work a few hours a week.

About four months ago, I ventured into the gig economy by doing deliveries for DoorDash and UberEats. The first few days were pretty rough, as the constant turning of my head in traffic seemed to aggravate my neck, starting a new cycle of headaches and disrupted sleep. It seemed unlikely after a couple of days I would be able to continue.

But I kept at it, and after a few more days, all that turning of my head lead to a strengthening of my neck muscles. Over the ensuing weeks, my neck health continued to improve, with my overall health improving simultaneously. I spent most of the past several decades functioning at around 20-25%, being as low as 5% at times. But I've now reached the point where I feel mostly (75%?) recovered from my almost 50-year struggle with ME/CFS -- @Cort. I always believed my downward spiral began with a head injury/whiplash at age 15, and my latest experiences seem to lend support to those belief(s).

I credit most of my recent improvement(s) to the thoracic extension exercises. However, I think it's possible they may not have made much difference had I not done many of the other things I've done over the years which I've described in earlier posts on this thread and others. What I find particularly intriguing is that the exercising of my neck from driving in traffic may have made as much difference as anything else I've done over the years/decades.
 
Last edited:

panckage

Senior Member
Messages
777
Location
Vancouver, BC
I am not sure what would be better, a recorded cat's purr or a 120 Hz sine wave.


So then I started thinking in terms of trying to create a 120 Hz mechanical vibration directly in the body tissues. The first idea that came to mind was women's sexual vibrators; I wondered if any might have a vibration frequency around 120 Hz.
Unless you are willing to stick a vibrator down your throat :rofl: there is a more powerful and simpler way.... Basically humming. Just get a tuner for your phone (Eg. Noteworthy tuner - the open source one) and hum until it shows 120hz frequency. This will deliver way more energy than an outside force. Humming is tiring and honestly probably takes too much energy for many people here but I will give it a go!

Otherwise a raspberry pi could probably used to program an actuator(?) to that frequency and placed directly on the spine. Not sure that's a good idea for someone with spinal issues though.


A bit OT but for the bobblehead feeling, is that something that happens all the time? I do feel like a bobblehead occasionally but its not a constant thing.
 

kewia

Senior Member
Messages
233
But I've now reached the point where I feel mostly (75%?) recovered from my almost 50-year struggle with ME/CFS

I'm quite happy for you, @Wayne.
What kind of magic exercise are you doing getting remission from?
And which things does it improve?
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,306
Location
Ashland, Oregon
What kind of magic exercise are you doing getting remission from?

Hi @kewia -- It sort of does feel like magic, because I began to see significant improvements within just 3-4 days of starting a couple of different exercises, one called a thoracic extension exercise. The following :37 second video shows how a rolled up towel or foam piece can be used for the upper thoracic area.

Thoracic Towel Stretch

Below is a link to a 5-min. video which goes into more detail on how to use a towel or foam piece to loosen up the upper back:

The Simplest and Most Effective Exercise For Thoracic Extension

I "think" this was the most important exercise I did that shifted things so dramatically for me. But I also started doing another one, called a pelvis stabilization technique (link below), at about the same time (2 years ago+). I think it really helped my lower back a LOT, and most likely helped my neck area, possibly as much as the towel exercise (I use foam instead of a towel). I think these two techniques work really well together.

Natural Pelvis Reset

Another exercise I do that I think continues to support my neck health is something I refer to as the Twirling the Big Toe technique. The link will take you to on online post I made a few years with a description on how to do it.

As I've mentioned before, I noticed significant improvements after starting to do these exercises. But don't know that I would have had as much success had I not done a number of other things over the years, such as AtlasPROfilax, Nasal Specific, self-acupuncture, etc. It just feels like everything came together at about the time I started on the thoracic extension exercises. The following paragraph is from an earlier post I made where I describe how to do an AtlasPROFilax treatment on myself, and what happened...

"As things shifted significantly in my neck area, I was also concurrently feeling a notable difference in my pectoral muscles. They felt a little tender at first, but in very short order, felt quite a bit stronger. It was as if they had been "reactivated", and were now able to help hold my neck in place a little better. I also noticed that besides being able to walk more comfortably, I felt I was walking taller as well. Also... I noticed that within about a week, my endurance and resiliency while walking had literally doubled."​
The nice thing about all these exercises is you can do them at home, and don't cost a cent. Plus, I would think there would be few potential downsides, although everybody's situation is unique. I think care should always be taken to not go beyond the body's limits. -- Good luck with these if you decide to give em a shot!
 
Last edited:

Bowser

Senior Member
Messages
141
@Wayne By any chance, have you ever done a brain MRI which showed an empty sella or any signs of intracranial hypertension? I am wondering if your symptoms were caused by TOS.