Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac, when switching from sublingual b12 to the b12 oils, was there a transition period? How long did it take for you to notice an effect/benefit/improvement from the B12oils over the sublinguals? I just ordered some b12 oils and am hoping I don't have the ups and downs I got from the sublinguals and carnitine.

It was same-day. It's been slowly improving since. I take the B2 with it religiously, + C, Se, & iodised salt for the iodine.

After 6 months, I have very little CFS left.

Cognition & memory have improved nicely - partly from the B12 & partly from my cognition mix.

I have started getting staph skin infections for the first time ever - no idea why. Figuring that out is my only serious problem presently.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have started getting staph skin infections for the first time ever - no idea why. Figuring that out is my only serious problem presently.

Please tag me (if you remember to) when/if you talk about it again, because my husband has this problem since 1999 and we can't figure it out.

Edit-- BTW L. salivarius is said to control S. aureus - I will try that with him.

 

[Johnmac]

Sure @Gondwanaland.

I can't figure it out either. I've never had skin staph infections other than a bit of acne in adolescence.

I've found that a hot compress on the infection helps (as it's meant to), & I wonder if that's because the heat kills bacteria. I then add some clove oil, which also seems to help. Tumeric orally (with black pepper) brings down any fever.

But otherwise, a mystery. I haven't found anything much on Google re the cause of recurrent boils in otherwise healthy people, other than speculation that high blood-sugar is involved (in the same way that sugars bring on pimples & acne in young people). And my infections are smaller & shorter-lasting since cutting the carbs & sugars right back.

My infections seem to be accompanied by fever, worse psoriasis, tiredness, crabby mood, OC, blacking out on standing - tho a slightly different set of symptoms each time. FODMAP intolerance appeared with the second round in April.

Thanks for the L salivarius news. Do you take the L salivarius orally? I saw one trial where they put it on the skin, but haven't really read up on it yet...

 

[garyfritz]

After 6 months, I have very little CFS left.

That's fantastic!! Congratulations, @Johnmac!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I've found that a hot compress on the infection helps (as it's meant to), & I wonder if that's because the heat kills bacteria. I then add some clove oil, which also seems to help. Tumeric orally (with black pepper) brings down any fever.

The last times we applied coconut oil and it seemed to go away faster than usual.

high blood-sugar is involved

We noticed this might be involved

worse psoriasis

That has hyperinsulinemia involvement. Do you consume coconut oil? It is supposed to help. I had tiny patches of psoriasis in my neck that disappeared with P5P - unfortunately I became intolerant to it (probably low iodine). I read a testimonial from someone who cured her psoriasis just by replacing cooking oil at home with coconut oil. Coconut oil causes me a severe decrease in lymphocytes and worsened food allergies (oxalates).

 

[Chocolove]

@Johnmac Thanks for the wonderful update. What are you doing for vitamin A? (... not carotene, which converts poorly to A but which however is usually what is in supplements to avoid over-consumption toxicity.) Do you eat liver? Take a supplement of preformed vitamin A? No?

Many people may be largely deficient in vitamin A, although they believe they consume it. Vitamin A is known for fighting infection and is quite potent in skin care. In cosmetics, retinol (vitamin A) is applied to the skin for beauty and in this case beauty means health. Vitamin A derivatives are often used for acne.

Also MeB12 can antagonize certain kinds of bacteria with resulting acne.

BTW, you and I have some common SNPs.

 

[Johnmac]

That's fantastic!! Congratulations, @Johnmac!

And thanks for your help in getting me onto Greg's oils, Gary. They've been the key ingredient.

 

[Johnmac]

@Gondwanaland : The last times we applied coconut oil and it seemed to go away faster than usual.

I'll give it a shot. I only take it orally presently.

We noticed this might be involved.

It stands to reason, if higher sugar intake increases acne risk in teens.

That has hyperinsulinemia involvement. Do you consume coconut oil? It is supposed to help. I had tiny patches of psoriasis in my neck that disappeared with P5P - unfortunately I became intolerant to it (probably low iodine). I read a testimonial from someone who cured her psoriasis just by replacing cooking oil at home with coconut oil. Coconut oil causes me a severe decrease in lymphocytes and worsened food allergies (oxalates).

The coconut oil's never affected my psoriasis; nor has blood-sugar so far as I can tell.

Anyway, if I come across any breakthrough information, I'll let you know.

I'm about to look at the gut as a source of the problem (& maybe most problems). Staph is an element of SIBO, for example.

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks for the wonderful update. What are you doing for vitamin A? (... not carotene, which converts poorly to A but which however is usually what is in supplements to avoid over-consumption toxicity.) Do you eat liver? Take a supplement of preformed vitamin A? No?

Hi @Chocolove,

I take 5ml cod liver oil twice a day. Being paleo since the 1990s, I eat kidneys several times a week, & liver maybe once a month. Plus a fair few carrots & leafy greens.

Many people may be largely deficient in vitamin A, although they believe they consume it. Vitamin A is known for fighting infection and is quite potent in skin care. In cosmetics, retinol (vitamin A) is applied to the skin for beauty and in this case beauty means health. Vitamin A derivatives are often used for acne.

Interesting, but as far as I can see I'm covered.

Also MeB12 can antagonize certain kinds of bacteria with resulting acne.

Can you give me a citation for that? I've only ever seen the opposite (that deficiency can cause acne etc).

BTW, you and I have some common SNPs.

Could we be related? Are the Chocoloves from the Scottish Highlands?

ATB...

 

[Chocolove]

@Johnmac Good. With that liver you should have adequate vitamin A. Check out these cites:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26109103
Sci Transl Med. 2015 Jun 24;7(293):293ra103. doi: 10.1126/scitranslmed.aab2009.Vitamin B12 modulates the transcriptome of the skin microbiota in acne pathogenesis.
Kang D1, Shi B1, Erfe MC2, Craft N2, Li H3.

....."To further understand the molecular mechanism, we revealed that vitamin B12 supplementation in P. acnes cultures promoted the production of porphyrins, which have been shown to induce inflammation in acne. Our findings suggest a new bacterial pathogenesis pathway in acne and provide one molecular explanation for the long-standing clinical observation that vitamin B12 supplementation leads to acne development in a subset of individuals."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27303708
mSphere. 2016 Feb 10;1(1). pii: e00023-15. doi: 10.1128/mSphere.00023-15.
Strain-Level Differences in Porphyrin Production and Regulation in Propionibacterium acnes Elucidate Disease Associations.
Johnson T1, Kang D1, Barnard E1, Li H2.

This site suggests using a topical probiotic spray to crowd out the problematic bacteria:
http://paleoforwomen.com/acne-and-vitamin-b12/

"When people have a high level of B12 in their body, the bacteria can sense it and it stops producing as much B12," says Huiying Li, Ph.D., lead author of the study. But once P. acnes shuts down the B12 biosynthesis pathway, the bacteria starts producing more porphyrins, naturally-occurring compounds that can lead to inflammation and acne. Put simply, "If there is excessive vitamin B12, the bacteria stop producing their own vitamins, and this causes inflammation," explains Jessica Wu, M.D., Los Angeles dermatologist, author of Feed Your Face.

And a note of help from another forum about using topical vitamin C and salicylic acid to reduce the acne:

"I have had some terrible breakouts from b-12 supplementation, too. I know it’s kinda tacky to come to a page (I’ve been following this thread out of interest for years) and recommend a product, but: I have had really great luck using a product from Paula’s Choice. It’s the 25% Vitamin C spot treatment. It’s expensive, but it’s extremely effective (I have not done lasers, as I’ve had such great results with the vitamin C). I don’t know if you are vegan or not, but the product is. There’s also a 15% concentration of vitamin c by the same company that I also use as maintenance, with equally impressive results. I’d recommend pairing one of these products with one that contacts salicylic acid (she has many) for optimal results. In any case, if it doesn’t work there’s a 60 day money back guarantee for everything she sells, so you don’t have to worry about wasting money.
Dustin

Valerie Says:
July 6th, 2015 at 10:07 am Hi Dustin!
Thanks a million for your reply! I am willing to try a different product that comes recommend. (esp. seeing that they are currently offering a discount code.) If is very difficult to make a choice among the myriad of products available in the industry in general."

Oh yes, me wandering forefathers knew Celtic ways according to 23andme...

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac Good. With that liver you should have adequate vitamin A. Check out these cites:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26109103
Sci Transl Med. 2015 Jun 24;7(293):293ra103. doi: 10.1126/scitranslmed.aab2009.Vitamin B12 modulates the transcriptome of the skin microbiota in acne pathogenesis.
Kang D1, Shi B1, Erfe MC2, Craft N2, Li H3.

....."To further understand the molecular mechanism, we revealed that vitamin B12 supplementation in P. acnes cultures promoted the production of porphyrins, which have been shown to induce inflammation in acne. Our findings suggest a new bacterial pathogenesis pathway in acne and provide one molecular explanation for the long-standing clinical observation that vitamin B12 supplementation leads to acne development in a subset of individuals."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27303708
mSphere. 2016 Feb 10;1(1). pii: e00023-15. doi: 10.1128/mSphere.00023-15.
Strain-Level Differences in Porphyrin Production and Regulation in Propionibacterium acnes Elucidate Disease Associations.
Johnson T1, Kang D1, Barnard E1, Li H2.

This site suggests using a topical probiotic spray to crowd out the problematic bacteria:
http://paleoforwomen.com/acne-and-vitamin-b12/

"When people have a high level of B12 in their body, the bacteria can sense it and it stops producing as much B12," says Huiying Li, Ph.D., lead author of the study. But once P. acnes shuts down the B12 biosynthesis pathway, the bacteria starts producing more porphyrins, naturally-occurring compounds that can lead to inflammation and acne. Put simply, "If there is excessive vitamin B12, the bacteria stop producing their own vitamins, and this causes inflammation," explains Jessica Wu, M.D., Los Angeles dermatologist, author of Feed Your Face.

And a note of help from another forum about using topical vitamin C and salicylic acid to reduce the acne:

"I have had some terrible breakouts from b-12 supplementation, too. I know it’s kinda tacky to come to a page (I’ve been following this thread out of interest for years) and recommend a product, but: I have had really great luck using a product from Paula’s Choice. It’s the 25% Vitamin C spot treatment. It’s expensive, but it’s extremely effective (I have not done lasers, as I’ve had such great results with the vitamin C). I don’t know if you are vegan or not, but the product is. There’s also a 15% concentration of vitamin c by the same company that I also use as maintenance, with equally impressive results. I’d recommend pairing one of these products with one that contacts salicylic acid (she has many) for optimal results. In any case, if it doesn’t work there’s a 60 day money back guarantee for everything she sells, so you don’t have to worry about wasting money.
Dustin

Valerie Says:
July 6th, 2015 at 10:07 am Hi Dustin!
Thanks a million for your reply! I am willing to try a different product that comes recommend. (esp. seeing that they are currently offering a discount code.) If is very difficult to make a choice among the myriad of products available in the industry in general."

Oh yes, me wandering forefathers knew Celtic ways according to 23andme...

That's really interesting @Chocolove. I'll send the links to Greg for comment, as I don't understand it all - just that B12 apparently kicks up levels of porphyrins in acne-associated (non-commensal) P. acnes, and so can cause acne.

"...the long-standing clinical observation that vitamin B12 supplementation leads to acne development in a subset of individuals" is a new one on me.

The findings are a little alarming. I wonder what the solution is, for someone who needs B12 to ward off CFS? Or maybe getting the staph infections signals that a lower dose is indicated? (I assume no-one knows that either.)

I do two squirts a day of the oil, which has a lot more B12 in it than any sublingual.

Pre-oil, I was getting bad staph finger infections toward the end of the (sublingual) Freddd Protocol (Dec 2015), but they cleared up with topical garlic, as an infection should. However the boils that appeared April-May-June - after 3 months of transdermal B12 - were unstoppable. One was two inches across and took 3 months to heal. All the garlic & tumeric in the world did nothing, which was unique in my experience.

So maybe this is my mechanism?

Doing searches on acne through this site actually brings up lots of hits: people blame it on B12 deficiency, and on just about every other B vitamin, among other things. I wonder how often it's B12?

The topical probiotic mentioned in the lay article link is B. subtilis. I wonder if that would actually crowd out the P. acnes, or if anyone knows?

This lay site suggests that B12 straight into the bloodstream causes more trouble than oral/SL. There are also many comments after the post from people saying B12 gave them acne.

@Gondwanaland, does your hubby take B12?

@garyfritz or any other B12 users have a staph skin problems such as acne or boils?

Thanks again Chocolove. I'll report what Greg says when I get a reply.

 

[garyfritz]

I have not noticed any staph issues, @Johnmac, but that is fairly concerning, considering how much b12 we take.

Probably not related, but: Wikipedia says P. acnes can promote chronic blepharitis, which I have some trouble with. But a) that started before I started supplementing b12, and b) if I understand correctly, b12 effectively inhibits P. acnes (or just its b12 synthesis?) so it would not tend to aggravate blepharitis?? Not really sure of the mechanism here...

 

[Chocolove]

@Johnmac Of further concern is the iodine - acne connection which has been noted over the years. Check out this compilation of data at:

http://www.acneeinstein.com/iodine-acne/

"Oral exposure to markedly excess iodide can produce skin lesions, referred to as ioderma, which are thought be a form of cell-mediated hypersensitivity…

Characteristic symptoms include acneiform pustules, which can coalesce to form vegetative (proliferating) nodular lesions on the face, extremities, trunk, and mucous membranes. The lesions regress and heal when the excess iodide intake is discontinued. The clinical literature includes cases of ioderma that occurred subsequent to oral doses of iodide at 300–1000 mg/day"

Iodine And Inorganic Iodides: Human Health Aspects (PDF)

Note that the RDA for iodine is 150 micrograms (µg) for adults. The above report refers to 300 – 1000 milligrams (mg), which is about 2000 to 7000 times higher than the RDA. The FDA also reviewed the toxicity reports of iodine and concluded iodine intake of 1 mg per day is probably safe for the majority of population, but can cause symptoms in some people.

Green tea has recommendations in the reduction of acne and inflammation:
Green Tea reviews on Acne.org
www.acne.org › Reviews › Other treatments › Nutrition/Holistic
Acne.org members rated Green Tea an average of 4.5/5 and 93% of members would recommend it to a friend. Read all 368 reviews.

 

[Johnmac]

I have not noticed any staph issues, @Johnmac, but that is fairly concerning, considering how much b12 we take.

Probably not related, but: Wikipedia says P. acnes can promote chronic blepharitis, which I have some trouble with. But a) that started before I started supplementing b12, and b) if I understand correctly, b12 effectively inhibits P. acnes (or just its b12 synthesis?) so it would not tend to aggravate blepharitis?? Not really sure of the mechanism here...

Thanks Gary. So far as I can work out, B12 deficiency or too much B12 can activate P. acnes & cause acne. Given it's the same bug, that might be true of blepharitis also - but again, just guessing.

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac Of further concern is the iodine - acne connection which has been noted over the years. Check out this compilation of data at:

http://www.acneeinstein.com/iodine-acne/

"Oral exposure to markedly excess iodide can produce skin lesions, referred to as ioderma, which are thought be a form of cell-mediated hypersensitivity…

Characteristic symptoms include acneiform pustules, which can coalesce to form vegetative (proliferating) nodular lesions on the face, extremities, trunk, and mucous membranes. The lesions regress and heal when the excess iodide intake is discontinued. The clinical literature includes cases of ioderma that occurred subsequent to oral doses of iodide at 300–1000 mg/day"

Iodine And Inorganic Iodides: Human Health Aspects (PDF)

Note that the RDA for iodine is 150 micrograms (µg) for adults. The above report refers to 300 – 1000 milligrams (mg), which is about 2000 to 7000 times higher than the RDA. The FDA also reviewed the toxicity reports of iodine and concluded iodine intake of 1 mg per day is probably safe for the majority of population, but can cause symptoms in some people.

Green tea has recommendations in the reduction of acne and inflammation:
Green Tea reviews on Acne.org
www.acne.org › Reviews › Other treatments › Nutrition/Holistic
Acne.org members rated Green Tea an average of 4.5/5 and 93% of members would recommend it to a friend. Read all 368 reviews.

Thanks again @Chocolove. I have been on & off Iodoral - between 12.5 & 37.5 mg/day. I began it Oct 2015, & my infections started within a month or so. Hmm. However I got a recurrence this April, & I was off the iodine by then. Plus this new recurrence has happened many months after I stopped the Iodoral. So there doesn't appear to be a consistent correlation. Unless it's the iodized salt I've been eating all along: surely not?

(Lowered immunity is also a low iodine symptom, I seem to remember.)

I've been on green tea 2 cups/day since my last recurrence, but it hasn't stopped the current one, sadly. (I mix it with ashwaganda, brahmi & gingko: the mix has given my cognition & memory a nice kick along.)

One other theory is that the gut is doing this, as the appearance of skin lesions occurred not long after a bad case of FODMAP intolerance surfaced. But really I remain fairly mystified.

Greg is skeptical that B12 is involved in the skin infections, as your links related to P. acnes (which causes acne), whereas I have things that are more like boils, which are usually staphylococcus. However I notice the P. acnes Wikipedia page says:

The damage caused by P. acnes and the associated inflammation make the affected tissue more susceptible to colonization by opportunistic bacteria, such as Staphylococcus aureus. Preliminary research shows healthy pores are only colonized by P. acnes, while unhealthy ones universally include the nonpore-resident Staphylococcus epidermidis, amongst other bacterial contaminants. Whether this is a root causality, just opportunistic and a side effect, or a more complex pathological duality between P. acnes and this particular Staphylococcus species is not known.[11]

So the argument remains open perhaps. I'll try a spell off B12 & see what happens. (I'm praying the CFS doesn't return.) The studies I've seen say the acne cleared "promptly" or "immediately" after quitting B12, but the anecdotal reports in forums (there are hundreds!) list periods between 2 weeks & 10 months. Fingers crossed on that one.

Thanks again for the info Chocolove.

 

[Johnmac]

The last times we applied coconut oil and it seemed to go away faster than usual.

That has hyperinsulinemia involvement. Do you consume coconut oil? It is supposed to help. I had tiny patches of psoriasis in my neck that disappeared with P5P - unfortunately I became intolerant to it (probably low iodine). I read a testimonial from someone who cured her psoriasis just by replacing cooking oil at home with coconut oil. Coconut oil causes me a severe decrease in lymphocytes and worsened food allergies (oxalates).

Thanks @Gondwanaland. I haven't tried topical coconut oil - I tend to use garlic & clove oil topically, & tumeric orally. All help, but I don't feel I've even got close to the root cause of my furunculosis. Unless @Chocolove has nailed it with her B12 idea. (Does your hubby take B12?)

Yep, I take coconut oil twice daily. Indeed I do everything twice-daily that you should do to avoid getting skin infections (Greg sent me a long list - I'm doing all of them). But there's something I'm missing.

I 90% cured my psoriasis last year when I started taking copper. But then it stopped working. I fancy I got the Zn/Cu ratio right in passing - but then it got out of whack again, & I was unable to get it back. I've taken a ton of P5P in the last year or two: no effect on psoriasis, sadly.

Are you meant to take the L. salivarius orally or topically, to control staph?

 

[Chocolove]

@Johnmac Salicylic acid topical, plus oral aspirin helps fighting the staph - there is good research on this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=staphylococcus aureus&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=staphylococcus aureus salicylic acid

Paula's Choice makes a wonderful 2% BHA liquid clear salicylic acid topical, which I have personally found very effective in fighting acne on the face and body. She has a full acne line. It is gentle on the skin. I also use her Skin recovery cleanser which is very good on irritated skin. ( I get no kickbacks for this recommendation. Nor am I affiliated with her or the company. But I sure have regretted trying other companies' products.) The 25% vitamin C spot treatment someone else recommended above is found here also. Free samples and inexpensive starter kits are available. Her site now offers a sale:
Labor Day Weekend Event: Take 15% Off Orders of $65+
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=salicylic acid 2%
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=vitamin c
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=acne
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=skin recovery cleanser
http://paulaschoice.custhelp.com/

Paula Begoun, aka the cosmetics cop, is known for her work researching cosmetics and calling out advertisers for false claims. So many people wanted her to start her own line of skin care, that after decades, Paula finally did. Her line, Paula's Choice, is research based, reasonably priced and if ineffective, her company is well known for giving full refunds if the product doesn't help. Her website Beautypedia.com offers ratings of many brand name products. The website also has an ingredient dictionary. It is a great place to research topical skin care. If you call the company, reps are very helpful as well.
http://www.paulaschoice.com/beautypedia?ftlt=branded&gclid=CM76pMmI9s4CFYdsfgodWaYJEw&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Johnmac]

@Johnmac Salicylic acid topical, plus oral aspirin helps fighting the staph - there is good research on this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=staphylococcus aureus&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=staphylococcus aureus salicylic acid

Paula's Choice makes a wonderful 2% BHA liquid clear salicylic acid topical, which I have personally found very effective in fighting acne on the face and body. She has a full acne line. It is gentle on the skin. I also use her Skin recovery cleanser which is very good on irritated skin. ( I get no kickbacks for this recommendation. Nor am I affiliated with her or the company. But I sure have regretted trying other companies' products.) The 25% vitamin C spot treatment someone else recommended above is found here also. Free samples and inexpensive starter kits are available. Her site now offers a sale:
Labor Day Weekend Event: Take 15% Off Orders of $65+
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=salicylic acid 2%
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=vitamin c
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=acne
http://www.paulaschoice.com/find/?N=4294967227&Ntt=skin recovery cleanser
http://paulaschoice.custhelp.com/

Paula Begoun, aka the cosmetics cop, is known for her work researching cosmetics and calling out advertisers for false claims. So many people wanted her to start her own line of skin care, that after decades, Paula finally did. Her line, Paula's Choice, is research based, reasonably priced and if ineffective, her company is well known for giving full refunds if the product doesn't help. Her website Beautypedia.com offers ratings of many brand name products. The website also has an ingredient dictionary. It is a great place to research topical skin care. If you call the company, reps are very helpful as well.
http://www.paulaschoice.com/beautypedia?ftlt=branded&gclid=CM76pMmI9s4CFYdsfgodWaYJEw&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks Chocolove, I'll check it out. (I'm in Australia BTW.)

Given that my skin eruptions get more robust the healthier I get, last a lot longer than boils, & most don't look like boils, Greg's suggested I should look at the parasite option. (I live in SE Asia most of the year.) So I'll get tested for leishmaniasis (the most obvious candidate) & a few others before proceeding with any treatments.

 

[Chocolove]

I should look at the parasite option. (I live in SE Asia most of the year.) So I'll get tested for leishmaniasis (the most obvious candidate) & a few others

@Johnmac That's sounds like a very good idea - ASAP.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland, does your hubby take B12?

nope

One other theory is that the gut is doing this, as the appearance of skin lesions occurred not long after a bad case of FODMAP intolerance surfaced.

He's been FODMAP intolerant for several years

The damage caused by P. acnes and the associated inflammation make the affected tissue more susceptible to colonization by opportunistic bacteria, such as Staphylococcus aureus. Preliminary research shows healthy pores are only colonized by P. acnes, while unhealthy ones universally include the nonpore-resident Staphylococcus epidermidis, amongst other bacterial contaminants. Whether this is a root causality, just opportunistic and a side effect, or a more complex pathological duality between P. acnes and this particular Staphylococcus species is not known.[11]

His furunculosis always start in a pimple form that progresses to inflammation. We have been applying coconut oil as early as we can and the inflammation doesn't progress.

Are you meant to take the L. salivarius orally or topically, to control staph?

Orally.