Niagen and methylation?

[vortex]

Everything you read about Niagen/NMN etc. seems like it should be able to repair our mitochondria function.

But since alot of us have mthfr and niagen/nmn is a nicotinamide/niacin molecule
it will inhibit our methylation.

Is there any work around?

Is it possible to simply take extra methylfolate etc. to compensate for the inhibition effect of taking nicotinamide based niagen?

or does any appreciable amount of niacin molecules shut down methylation that it isnt practical or possible to take enough methylfolate to feasibly take to balance out the inhibition effect of NAD?

What do you think @Freddd ?

thanks!

 

[Learner1]

I have not found Niagen (nicotinamide riboside) to be helpful at all, at any dose. We suspect I have a broken pathway to convert NR to NAD+.

I got an hour's benefit out of 20mg Enada NADH, enough to get me through a workout.

But getting straight NAD+, either IV or sublingual, about 150mg a day, has given me a more normal daily life. A word of warning - almost all products that say they are NAD are not, they are some precursor, like niacin or NR - those will not work like true NAD+..

I have huge methylation needs, taking significant doses of 5-MTHF, MB12, P5P, R5P, TMG, magnesium, potassium, methionine, B1 and molybdenum.

My doctor says all the NAD and precursor products are still niacin and will negatively impact methylation, but that we can compensate by upping the methylsting nutrients.

I have not run into an NMN product but would be interested in trying it, just to see if the conversion works for me. Do you know of one?

 

[vortex]

I have not run into an NMN product but would be interested in trying it, just to see if the conversion works for me. Do you know of one?

Well sure, there are several NMN products, were you not able to find any on amazon?
I can search on there and post them if you need to.

But please tell me more about the injections of NAD+ you are getting.

Is it a slow drip in an IV bag I assume?

I am impressed your doctor understand NAD and methylation impairment. Maybe I need to go see your doc. I just lost my doc and I have to search for a new one and it is hard to find a doc that is on the cutting edge.

 

[triffid113]

My doctor says all the NAD and precursor products are still niacin and will negatively impact methylation, but that we can compensate by upping the methylsting nutrients.

This is curious. Why would B3 negatively affect nethylation? I am planning to try NR by the way and wondered if you all had tried that cuz it was thought it would help chronic fatigue. I just read about a study in the latest Life Extension mag that says it helps Parkinsons too anong many other things like brain and heart. You are a special cas3 with a specific gene mutation other cfs's may not have. It sounds worth a try. Also, life extension has a new supplement out that kills senescent cells that is supposed to roll back a lot of health problems...mebbe worth a try...the one that made me think of trying it is that it is also supposed to help joint problems. But again , it is supposed to help with many of the health problems of aging of which fatigue is certainly one (not necesarily cfs, but still, perhaps worth a try).

So I was going to bring up this supplement as something of potential interest to cfs folks but you put it in as a topic header so surely everyone is aware of this supplement now and thought about trying it. Yes, it's expensive and sometimes good health costs more than we can afford. I wonder if there's a food source to obtain this or, as you say, sufficient niacin and ribose so one's body can take it from there. Freddd, who recovered from nerve damage, used to tout ribose among his protocol suggestions. I never understood what it was supposed to do for you...I mean it's a sugar and don't we get enough of that? I react very poorly to sugar...but maybe all put together in NR it becomes magical... one dan only hope. (Byw is NAD+ expensive?)

 

[Oberon]

Check out this article by Chris Masterjohn:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2018/07/26/careful-niacin-nicotinamide-riboside/

He recommends TMG to make up for the methyl groups Niagen depletes.
He also suggests not using a lower dose than what the supplement comes as.

 

[parth88]

I tried Niagen(Nicotinamide Riboside) when I was completely off of all supplements. It worked like a dream. I was seeing improvements in every department. My Fatigue went away. I was able to read and understand things faster. My cognition improvements. There was some euphoria. It was like on adderall and strattera at the same time with none of the bad effects.
In three weeks all the improvements went away.
I came across Chris Masterjohn's link in the post above. I tried Niagen again with TMG, Choline Bitartate and Phosphatidyl Choline again. Nothing worked. I feel like Niagen does increase the utillization of something and depletes. I left a 3 week break again from all supplements and tried Niagen again. It worked but only for 3 days.
So I can conclude Niagen does deplete something but I cant figure what it is.
I suspect its Thiamine cause I get tingling feeling in my extremities now and then. I have ordered some Thiamine in the form of Thiamin HCL and TTFD. They are on the way. Let me try it out and update here.

Does anyone else have similar experiences?

 

[Learner1]

Niagen does absolutely nothing for me. I've tried it twice, for 2 months each, several months apart in 1g doses.

Nicotinamide riboside must convert to NAD+ before being used. This image shows his it must be converted to NMN before being used. Though this conversion works in some people, if doesn't work in everyone, and supplementing NMN, NAD+ or NADH are more effective

So, maybe you have a conversion problem.

Another thought is that even if it is converting,, NAD+ is used to make energy, it's used as a co-factor for many reactions and it's used to make NADPH which does a lot of things, too.

Let's suppose you can make energy. So, then you can look at the other reactions, which each have their own co-factors. Do you have enough if each of those co-factors? Which co-factors are you missing? One, like thiamine? Or several? Depending on those answers, you may gave one of many processes not working. And, maybe you had a little if the one co-factor when when you started the Niagen, and then ran out when you suddenly added the Niagen and now have none.

This is why I am an advocate for comprehensive nutrient testing like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval. Rather than guessing at what co-factors you're missing, one test can identify several mudding co-factors and give you an idea of how plentiful they are in relation to one another, guiding you toward a treatment plan that can help you optimize your processes and make use of the energy you have.

Without this, one ends up with processes bottlenecked and waiting for resources, and once the correct co-factors are finally provided, you run along find until you hit the next bottleneck(s) and get stuck again waiting for the resources for those processes to get unstuck. One can guess and play trial and error games forever without good data to make sound decisions, and waste a lot of money in the process.

 

[knackers323]

I have not found Niagen (nicotinamide riboside) to be helpful at all, at any dose. We suspect I have a broken pathway to convert NR to NAD+.

I got an hour's benefit out of 20mg Enada NADH, enough to get me through a workout.

But getting straight NAD+, either IV or sublingual, about 150mg a day, has given me a more normal daily life. A word of warning - almost all products that say they are NAD are not, they are some precursor, like niacin or NR - those will not work like true NAD+..

I have huge methylation needs, taking significant doses of 5-MTHF, MB12, P5P, R5P, TMG, magnesium, potassium, methionine, B1 and molybdenum.

My doctor says all the NAD and precursor products are still niacin and will negatively impact methylation, but that we can compensate by upping the methylsting nutrients.

I have not run into an NMN product but would be interested in trying it, just to see if the conversion works for me. Do you know of one?

@Learner1 what is the sublingual product you take please?

 

[Learner1]

Alive by Nature NMN lozenges Their NAD+ works equally well.

 

[NotThisGuy]

I tried Niagen(Nicotinamide Riboside) when I was completely off of all supplements. It worked like a dream. I was seeing improvements in every department. My Fatigue went away. I was able to read and understand things faster. My cognition improvements. There was some euphoria. It was like on adderall and strattera at the same time with none of the bad effects.
In three weeks all the improvements went away.
I came across Chris Masterjohn's link in the post above. I tried Niagen again with TMG, Choline Bitartate and Phosphatidyl Choline again. Nothing worked. I feel like Niagen does increase the utillization of something and depletes. I left a 3 week break again from all supplements and tried Niagen again. It worked but only for 3 days.
So I can conclude Niagen does deplete something but I cant figure what it is.
I suspect its Thiamine cause I get tingling feeling in my extremities now and then. I have ordered some Thiamine in the form of Thiamin HCL and TTFD. They are on the way. Let me try it out and update here.

Does anyone else have similar experiences?

Any updates so far?

 

[parth88]

After taking few weeks of PhosphatidylCholine and TMG (BComplex with B6 in p5p form and Trace Minerals like Iron,manganese,magnesium,zinc,copper). I see some change in the ability to think. Ability to think logically and connect the dots better. Memory has also improved. But mood and motivation is still bad. I was able to get some fursultiamine which is a form of tffd. I need it in the dose of a 1g per day. It seems I can tolerate it at a high dose.
But it gets expensive real quick. I can see a change in mood if I take a large dose. But not economical.

I couldnt find allithiamine or fursultiamine in powdered form for shipping to India. I have ordered sulbutiamine. its on its way.

Yes there is success with phosphatidyl cholne TMG and ttfd(fursultiamine)
I tried niagen one or twice. No it doesnt work yet.

Now the plan is to try sulbutiamine in high doses.
It is also recommended to take pterostillbene with niagen. I am trying pterostillbene since yesterday. Will add in Niagen and see if it changes anything.

 

[Learner1]

@parth88 What products and dosing are you using of the various thiamine types?

 

[parth88]

I tried
Now foods Thiamine Hcl 500mg/day for a week - didnt do anything
Benfotiamine 500mg/day for a week - didnt do anything

Fursultiamine was from a indian drug store. Its sold with a brand name Privitamix. If I take about 1g perday split into 200mg doses, I can see some improvements in mood. I dont trust the quality of indian brands btw. I have ordered allithiamine and sulbutiamine both are in transit.

 

[parth88]

I am expecting the imported brands will work better at lower dose or give me better results.

 

[Learner1]

I am expecting the imported brands will work better at lower dose or give me better results.

I've been taking 750mg benfotiamine but considering switching at least some to allithiamine and/or sulbutiamine but have seen no info anywhere on comparative dosing.

If you don't trust the quality of the Indian brands, why use them? What are the alternatives? The products I've seen do far have 50mg doses, do am not keen on taking 15 pills a day if the dosing is equivalent with benfo.

 

[parth88]

Allithiamine is shipped from the US. Due to covid my shipments are stuck. I was ready to try any version of TTFD so I am taking Indian for now. But wont reorder it again. I am not sure about the dosage I am experimenting with doses as well. I might get my sulbutiamine powder next week. Ill let you know how it goes.

 

[Learner1]

Thanks, I'd like to know.

 

[parth88]

Allithiamine is yet to reach me. I tried Sulbutiamine powder its very bitter and makes me nauseas.
Conventional method of adding methyl folate, b12 and choline makes me very irritable and depressed. This is inline with symptoms discussed by Dr Bill Walsh. I may be a "Under Methylator" as Dr. Walsh discussed. TMG does do anything even at 1mg dose.

I drink creatine, glycine and ribose. which raises my energy levels faintly.

Tried Methionine which didnt help much either. I am guessing there is a issue with ATP production(common among CFS) so SAMe isnt produced from methionine.

Only thing left is SAM-e which is being shipped to me now.

 

[Learner1]

I drink creatine, glycine and ribose. which raises my energy levels faintly.

Just curious.. how did you decide upon those? Thanks that raise my energy include hydrocortisone, thyroid hormone, NMN, NAD+, BH4, glutathione, ALA, A, and E.

Conventional method of adding methyl folate, b12 and choline makes me very irritable and depressed. This is inline with symptoms discussed by Dr Bill Walsh. I may be a "Under Methylator" as Dr. Walsh discussed. TMG does do anything even at 1mg dose.

Walsh's views are somewhat limited and confusing. Have you tried doing a comprehensive test like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval to see if you need those nutrients? Or their cofactors, like B2, B6, magnesium, potassium, zinc?

Tried Methionine which didnt help much either. I am guessing there is a issue with ATP production(common among CFS) so SAMe isnt produced from methionine.

I have plenty of problems with ATP production but SAM-e is definitely not a showstopper.

Only thing left is SAM-e which is being shipped to me now

SAM-e isn't really likely to help much if methionine doesn't. What is your homocysteine level? You might want to look into the other cofactors I mentioned above that you have not mentioned...

 

[parth88]

I tried Creatine and Ribose based on suggestion from Dr Tietelbaum. I added glycine because I am taking methionine.
My doctor is in US. I am stuck in India. when things settle down I can finally hope to check in with them. Ill try the Nutreval test when I finally return to US. I dont know any doctors in India for CFS. Nor its a well recognized condition.
Currently I am only doing a guess work. I am planning to try SAMe cause NR needs methyl groups. I tried every other supp for methylation. They give me very bad irritability and anger.

I do have Vitamin E, Mg, Potassium, Zinc, B6, B2, ALA. I react badly for ALA. I am guessing its cause of mercury amalgam I previously had.

I do have hydrocortisone but I am afraid of taking it long term cause it might disturb my HPA axis.

I used to take Low Dose Naltrexone for inflammation. I have ran out of it.

Right now I take VItamin E, Zinc, Magnesium Glycinate, Creatine, Glycine, Ribose and Vitamin B6. I have dropped B2,B1,B9,B12 and Choline. I am mostly calm than I was previously.

How long have you been taking NMN? are you taking anything else with it for NR to work?
NR didnt work after a week for me.