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What is Going on?? Neurotransmitters? Overmethylation? ANY IDEAS??

C

cobain_justinsane

Messages
58
Hello everyone

I'm back to post again. I recently started methylation several weeks ago after about a year of contemplation.

Please read this post for my experience several weeks ago and a little bit of history on my problems and Genetics.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...upplements-over-stimulated-please-help.32786/

I tried methylation supplements again. I went into it quite depressed, feel nauseous and having no appetite, motivation and only eating once a day.

- First 4 days, 500 mcg MB12 & 400Mcg Mfolate .......bad depression during this time
- Days 5-8, 1000 mcg MB12 and 1200mcg Mfolate....... depression continued to be quite bad
- Day 9... no supplements
- Day 10, 1000mcg MB12 1600mcg Mfolate.... depression still continuing
- Day 11 stopped Mb12 and Mfoltae

Here's where it gets weird.....

Day 12.... Major Depression
Day 13..... Depression starts to lift in evening giving way to heightened anxiety and slight euphoria
Day 14...... Depression has lifted quite a bit but I'm very anxious and by the end of the night I'm somewhat euphoric.
Day 15.... Similar to day 14 but crash into depression in the evening.

Now I'm left quite depressed and have not taken any supplements in a week.

It would almost be inclined to point this on an overmethylation reaction but I didn't feel these effects until 3 days after I stopped my supplements. Why does there seem to be a weird delay in that reaction??
Or
Cold this reaction be just my neurotransmitters coming back after coming out of a severe depression.

I also haven't been eating much, witch I know contributes to my depression. Because when I eat I tend to feel better.

I really don't know what to make out of this. I am compound heterozygous for MTHFR and have no COMT mutations.

I'm not full blown CFS either I do have some mild symptoms but my main symptoms seem to be cognitive. Brain fog, Memory, Anxiety, Depression and Focus.

Any Ideas??

I'd appreciate any Advice
 
C

cobain_justinsane

Messages
58
I am quite afraid of inducing some kind of maina or something. As I have gotten quite overstimulated, yet I've never taken the supplements along with having the overstimulated feeling. It almost feels like I'm high when the overstimulation occurs.

Very confident, motivated, energetic.

I just have to figure out a way to get my brain working correctly again and once and for all resolve my mental health issues and I feel like methylation is the key. I'm just having trouble getting there.
 
Avalon

Avalon

Senior Member
Messages
112
Location
Oxford, England
Reduce dosage significantly or move to HydroxyB12. Start with 150 mcg mb12 a day and no mfolate for two weeks, see how you feel then start mfolate at 50mcg a day. You have to start low and go slow, you may be suited to HydroxyB12 which allows the body to control the rate of methylation. Note these supplements are very powerful as they are already converted into bio usable forms, some people are very sensitive to these forms.
 
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Martial

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
I have had similar experiences with it, along with many, many other symptoms. Just keep at doses you can handle and expect these things to happen a bit as your body adjusts. Sometimes you just have to ride it through. If you need you should try to add in taurine which will help with pushing it into the cells, along with transdermal magnesium VERY important. You can go up to 1000mg a day, along with potassium, you should be taking at least 4000mg of potassium a day whether through diet alone or added supplementation to compensate. Never more then like 600-900mg of supplemental potassium at once though, and always space out potassium supplements through the day if you do so. Methylation also drives up potassium demand thats why its important to make sure you get enough of it. Too much potassium can also lead to hyper kalemia which is just as potentially dangerous as very low levels though. That is why you should never take too much at once, however hyperkalemia is very rare to occur unless you really abuse potassium supplements in extreme forms, or have existing kidney issues.


Make sure you have your other vitamin and mineral levels in good balance too. Methylation will increase demand for a lot of things as things start firing up again. Avoid ALL folic acid containing supplements and foods, as well as any synthetic b12 as they will block absorption of the bio available methyl folate, and methyl b12, hydroxy b12 as well if you go that route. take some amount of b2 as methyl folate is antagonistic to b2. The other b vitamins you can take but only if they do not have the "Folic Acid" as an additive, as 99% of the combined b complexes do. You also never want to take more P5P/ B6 a day then 10mg tops a day. In higher doses or over a longer period of time it can lead to nerve damage, P5P is more rare to cause that but I have heard reports from both. Iodine is also something important to be getting in your diet or as a supplement. You should also get your vitamin D levels tested and treat for that, most people are chronically low and icu doses can sometimes be 5000icu a day + to build back up again. Talk to your doctor before starting any new treatments. We are also not doctors and cannot offer medical advice just tips and ideas from our own experiences and research.

Other people may have differing opinions but from my point of view I have to say your doses were very moderate, the symptoms you mentioned should be easily handled if you try some of the things I mentioned along with the methyl supplements. Again with doctor permission first of course. It can feel bumpy and uncomfortable at times when things come back online but just try and relax through as much as you can. There is no danger of toxicity from these supplements they can just give whacky symptoms is all. You have mutations for a few different methylation COMTs so it is important to keep an ongoing methylation support protocol indefinitely to make up for them. If it helps some doctors suggest taking a few days off with the methyl supplements like a two days on, one day off, etc.. Really its up to you but I find as long as everything else is covered it is much easier of a ride.

I hope this all helps and am wishing you the very best!

p.s. You may also find it worthwhile to rule out pyoluria, its a blood condition that causes excess pyrolles in the blood stream; zinc, and b6 can become somewhat severely deficient as a result and will affect methylation until fixed with ongoing treatment.
 
C

cobain_justinsane

Messages
58
Hey guys thanks for the replies!

I think I'm going to get back on the methyl supplements at 1000mcg mb12 and 800mcg mfolate this weekend.

I'm also going to try transdermal magnesium and zinc.

I'm going to increase my dose by 1/2 a tablet every 5 days.

See how that works out.

I just don't understand why I'm having these delayed reactions. The anxiety and euphoria didn't happen until 2-3 days after I stopped the supplements. I'm just wondering if it's my neurotransmitters coming back up after coming out of a depression. Because I crash back into a depression right after these episodes.

Anyone have any possible explanation for this??

Anyway I'm just gonna try again with the magnesium and zinc.

Also, although I have no appetite I'm going to have to force myself to start eating. I know my eating habits have an effect on my moods.

Also a note, my depression always seems to lift at night. I'm a night owl and around 11 my depression lifts and I feel fine until I go to bed.
 
Martial

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
cobain_justinsane said:
Hey guys thanks for the replies!

I think I'm going to get back on the methyl supplements at 1000mcg mb12 and 800mcg mfolate this weekend.

I'm also going to try transdermal magnesium and zinc.

I'm going to increase my dose by 1/2 a tablet every 5 days.

See how that works out.

I just don't understand why I'm having these delayed reactions. The anxiety and euphoria didn't happen until 2-3 days after I stopped the supplements. I'm just wondering if it's my neurotransmitters coming back up after coming out of a depression. Because I crash back into a depression right after these episodes.

Anyone have any possible explanation for this??

Anyway I'm just gonna try again with the magnesium and zinc.

Also, although I have no appetite I'm going to have to force myself to start eating. I know my eating habits have an effect on my moods.

Also a note, my depression always seems to lift at night. I'm a night owl and around 11 my depression lifts and I feel fine until I go to bed.
Click to expand...


I don't have a full explanation for it but its a pretty common experience I hear with many others. It happened to me as well, I would get what I cal depression crashes where I feel really good for a few days, then have days were I have extreme anhedonia, severe irritation, and no energy whatsoever. On top of that sometimes I over did it and got reactions that felt like I was high on speed and all kinds of other weird stuff. Saying that your depression lifts at night also is suspect of adrenal dysfunction due to poor methylation and functioning with other parts of the body as a result. You may have uncomfortable symptoms for a bit of time, however you should also start feeling better and better over the course of the next few months.
 
C

cobain_justinsane

Messages
58
Hey Martial, thanks for the advice!

This methylation thing is a real bugger! I just really hope this is the solution to my problems!!

Just a note, I am on low dose cortef and thyroid. So my adrenal and thyroid problems are covered. I also have low b12.

If you don't mind me asking what methyl supplements do you take? What are the dosages and how long did it take you to work up to those dosages?

I just find it strange. I have listened to several interviews/lectures where doctors are giving high dosages of Mfolate and Mb12 to children with autism, people with mental illness and people with fibromyalgia/CFS and they say it is quite well tolerated. Strange how so many on here seem to have issues with it.

One doctor explained the overstimulation as "chemicals your brain has been deficient in for a long time finally coming back and being somewhat stimulating."
Makes sense, I guess.

I'll post the links for some of those interviews soon.

Thanks
 
Martial

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
cobain_justinsane said:
Hey Martial, thanks for the advice!

This methylation thing is a real bugger! I just really hope this is the solution to my problems!!

Just a note, I am on low dose cortef and thyroid. So my adrenal and thyroid problems are covered. I also have low b12.

If you don't mind me asking what methyl supplements do you take? What are the dosages and how long did it take you to work up to those dosages?

I just find it strange. I have listened to several interviews/lectures where doctors are giving high dosages of Mfolate and Mb12 to children with autism, people with mental illness and people with fibromyalgia/CFS and they say it is quite well tolerated. Strange how so many on here seem to have issues with it.

One doctor explained the overstimulation as "chemicals your brain has been deficient in for a long time finally coming back and being somewhat stimulating."
Makes sense, I guess.

I'll post the links for some of those interviews soon.

Thanks
Click to expand...


Well I have an infection in my brain that makes me intolerable of certain things or can aggravate it from lyme disease. Some others on here are also sensitive to any kinds of supplements from their illness which makes the nervous system hyper reactive. From the bulk of what I hear though patients themselves all say they have to ride out some kinds of symptoms or another.

I take Methyl b12 5000mcg-10000mcg a day, Adeno b12 5000-10000mcg a day. I either do days of 5000mcg of both, or split days of 10000mcg of one or the other. Methyl Folate 1600-3000mcg a day, 10-50 mg of B2 a day, and L carnatine Fumarate 500-1000mg a day. I take a few other things like herbs, and different vitamins and minerals but not directly impacting methylation. I started very high doses immediately and then slowed down over time, at first I was pushing 10000-15000mcg of methyl folate, and the same amount of b12 with added methyl injections a few times a week. It was very uncomfortable and I had some pretty bad symptoms from pushing it. Eventually I just slowed down to where I am now.

There are multiple theories and the one I followed from Fred suggested using higher doses to promote as much CNS healing as possible, in his theory he says that people that start too low on methyl folate/b12 get the nastier symptoms, and that if they bump it up that should steady it. He called this paradoxical folate deficiency. You can see more info on all of that on my signature. To be honest I probably would still be fine on the higher doses of methyl folate, and added injections if it wasn't for this chronic infection. I could feel how higher doses directly correlated with my lyme symptoms rather then methylation start up alone.

Hope this all helps!
 
Martial

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
brenda said:
Have you read what Yasko has to say about lithium whilst improving methylation?
Click to expand...

I would hold off on lithium until fixing everything else first, it is not without its share of possible side effects as well. I was really wanting to try it at one point then found studies that showed the supplemented versions can cause kidney toxicity.
 
B

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,277
Location
UK
Martial said:
I would hold off on lithium until fixing everything else first, it is not without its share of possible side effects as well. I was really wanting to try it at one point then found studies that showed the supplemented versions can cause kidney toxicity.
Click to expand...

That's just the type they use in Bipolar meds. This is a low dose and lithium orotate (I think that's right).
 
Martial

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
Critterina said:
Lithium concentrations in drinking water seem to be effective, statistically speaking, in promoting the mental health of a community. Perhaps the 5 mg in the Li orotate is just too much? I wonder how much is in drinking water in the high-concentration areas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/opinion/sunday/should-we-all-take-a-bit-of-lithium.html?_r=0
Click to expand...

I think its whatever its binded to and not the actual lithium itself. Again though its pretty rare to still hear of toxicity reports, I think there was only one real reported human toxicity report on supplemented lithium.
 
K

Kimsie

Senior Member
Messages
397
I have one son who was fatigued for over a year after having had mono. When he started taking methylfolate 5 mg a day his fatigue went away. After a few months on the methylfolate, he became very depressed. I think I have figured out why and the short answer is that because of my experience with my son I would think that you probably need to take a lot of B6 in the form of P5P, 50-100mg 3 times a day until your dreams become too vivid and then cut back. Niacinamide 500 mg should help a lot with the anxiety right away. B6 is required for your body to synthesize niacin from tryptophan, and you are probably low on B6, unless you already have vivid dreams.

My son always felt a lot better when he didn't eat, too. That is because the processes of digestion are taking up cofactors you need to feel good and also because you need B6 to get rid of the histamine that is released in your stomach to signal HCL production when you eat. He would also feel "hyper" and somewhat strange when his adrenaline was up.

If you decide to try this, keep taking the other supplements, too. You should feel a lot better in less than a week but maybe just a few days, based on our experience. You might need to take extra folate for a few days until your enzymes adjust, to avoid fatigue. I have made an attempt to explain this in another post so if you look at my last post yesterday there is an explanation.

About "overmethylation": The rate of methylation in the body can be slowed by low levels of B12 or folate, but high levels of B12 and folate do not control the rate of methylation. MTHFR is controlled by feedback mechanisms which take effect within minutes.
 
Johnmac

Johnmac

Senior Member
Messages
758
Location
Cambodia
I had a fair bit of anhedonia and irritability. The irritability was removed by lowering LCF from 855mg/day to less than 200. (This won't necessarily apply to you.) However some anhedonia remains: I feel like a fairly well-functioning robot.

I suspect that with my SNPs i need less folate in relation to mB12. Cutting that ratio helped too.

Freddd says that many "hypoadrenal" symptoms are actually low B12 symptoms. And indeed I was able to cut my hydrocortisone dose from 20mg to 15mg almost immediately, and am currently experimenting with 10.
 
Critterina

Critterina

Senior Member
Messages
1,238
Location
Arizona, USA
Kimsie said:
I think I have figured out why and the short answer is that because of my experience with my son I would think that you probably need to take a lot of B6 in the form of P5P, 50-100mg 3 times a day until your dreams become too vivid and then cut back.
Click to expand...
Toxicity from B6 may show up in numbness and pain in your extremites. Most practitioners recommend not to exceed 100 mg/day. Just sayin'.
 
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