What is an undermethylated depressive supposed to eat?

[dannybex]

Hate to be a broken record here, but Dr. Russell-Jones -- the B12oils guy -- says riboflavin, along with B12 and the mineral cofactors (iodine, selenium and molybdenum) needed to for B2 to work, takes care of any oxalate issue. And some on his facebook group have been able to not worry at all about oxalate issues.

 

[drmullin30]

Hi @dannybex can you provide a link to that information where he says that you don't need to worry about oxalates if you take B2 etc. ?

 

[gbells]

Combining protein foods with starch in the same meal is a good neurotransmitter booster. Limit sexual stimulation to once every three days to conserve neurotransmitters. Try cognitive behavioral therapy for fixable problems or meditation (Headspace) for unfixable ones. High concentration heat processed CBD oil sublingually twice a day is a strong antidepressant.

 

[dannybex]

Hi @dannybex can you provide a link to that information where he says that you don't need to worry about oxalates if you take B2 etc. ?

The Facebook group is private, so they told me to ask Dr. Russell-Jones. I did, and here's his reply:

"Oxalates in food can contribute to levels of oxalate seen in urine, but the contribution is minor, further many people basically shovel oxalate foods into their heads and yet their oxalate levels are not raised. Thus, in our family, we eat lots of leafy green veggies and yet my oxalate level is on the low side at 46, which is about the lowest that I have in 1200 OATs. Elevated oxalate levels though are quite common in both chronic fatigue syndrome and also in autism. Hence if it is not diet, where does it come from?

Plotting all the variables that I have against each other, there is a correlation between levels of glutaric acid and oxalates, meaning that it is a product of reduced levels of functional B2. In functional B2 deficiency, you have a reduced ability to gain energy from fat or sugars and so you have to turn to amino acid breakdown for energy. Thus, in functional B2 deficiency, amino acids are broken down for energy, and glucogenic amino acids, which are broken down to glycolic acid are converted to oxalic acid. So the more B2 deficient you are the higher the oxalates. There are exceptions, which depend upon diet and energy intake"

It is not quite so simple because, glutaric acid metabolism only requires FMN, not FAD, so in Molybdenum deficiency, you can be replete in Iodine and Selenium, and so glutaric acid can be low, BUT, other measures of functional B2 deficiency may still be present."

 

[drmullin30]

Thanks @dannybex ,

Keep in mind that Dr. Russell-Jones is not a medical practitioner but a chemist. I've had a few conversations with him and he doesn't account for genetics in any of his analyses and his analysis of human physiology is from a chemistry perspective not a medical or disease pathology approach.

Thus, in our family, we eat lots of leafy green veggies and yet my oxalate level is on the low side at 46, which is about the lowest that I have in 1200 OATs. Elevated oxalate levels though are quite common in both chronic fatigue syndrome and also in autism. Hence if it is not diet, where does it come from?

This statement shows my point exactly. Hyperoxaluria (different from high oxalates on a OAT test) is a genetic problem and disease state caused by SNPs in the oxalate metabolic pathway namely, AGXT, GRHPR, HOGA1, LDHA.

The reason his family can all eat leafy greens and have low oxalate is because they likely don't have any impactful SNPs in the pathway. They have no heredity for hyperoxaluria.

If, like me, you have down regulating SNPS on some of these genes you can take all the B2 and cofactors you want and you'll still overproduce oxalic acid in your metabolism when you eat too much fructose or take too much vitamin C or consume high levels of oxalates and you will be unable to eliminate oxalates sufficiently from dietary intake.

I have been using his b12 oils for years and have been taking high dose R5P (B2), molybdenum, iodine and selenium for years before learning about oxalates and I still had severe health impacts from them and huge improvement in symptoms by going low oxalate so I'm a walking contradiction to his theory. My physiology contradict a few other of his theories but I digress. His b12 oils are a phenomenal product and I don't want to take away from his accomplishments as he has helped me a great deal.

Calcium citrate can help with dietary oxalates but again there are many factors to consider. Leaky gut or IBS will also make recovery difficult because oxalates will leak directly into the blood stream. People with hyperoxaluria absorb up to 50% of the oxalate in the gut. Average people absorb 1-3%. Again, B2 supplementation isn't going to cure this problem.

Also to be considered is that if you have been B2 deficient or in hyper oxalic states all your life, it will still take time to eliminate oxalate deposits from joints and tissues and repair the damage done by them. So you can start his protocol, keep eating oxalates and maybe you won't see the high levels in the urine but oxalates may still be doing damage to your health. I've been very low oxalate since June of last year and I am still having elimination symptoms although my health has improved dramatically.

This article details numerous other reasons other than B2 deficiency that oxalate can cause problems:
https://mthfrsupport.com/2018/03/understanding-sulfation-and-oxalate/

 

[gbells]

I have been using his b12 oils for years

i think vaping B12 is the most cost effective delivery system.

 

[dannybex]

@drmullin30, have you had oxalate issues your entire life? And did/do they run in your family? Have you also cut down on fructose? Thanks in advance.

 

[drmullin30]

i think vaping B12 is the most cost effective delivery system.

@gbells that's the first I've ever heard of that. Where do you get this and what are the dosages available? Can you get adenosylcobalamin in vape form? Does it have the same safety concerns as other vape fluids? Any additional information or links you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

@dannybex Yes I do believe that I have suffered from them my whole life. I have a history of joint problems, juvenile rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis and bursitis. All of which also runs in my family. My mother and grandmother were both diagnosed with severe osteoporosis which is associated with hyperoxaluria.

I've also had digestion issues IBS, celiac disease etc. my whole life. My mother and sister are both celiac as well.

My thyroid has always been wonky and so is my sister's. She's diagnosed autoimmune Hashimotos. Oxalates are known drivers of thyroid disease.

Depression and anxiety have always been with me since I can remember even as a young child. My mom and my sister and most of my family suffers from anxiety or depression or both. Oxalates are known drivers of mental health issues. I've always been on the Aspergers spectrum which is also associated with hyperoxaluria.

Both my mother and I have issues with heart arrhythmias and electrolyte imbalance also associated with oxalates.

So there's a lot of evidence this has been a major driver of health problems my entire life except no doctor ever put any of it together with oxalates until I started having kidney stones and that's when I woke up!

I do my best to lower my fructose intake to near zero but that's also motivated by my desire to stay ketogenic as I function far better when I'm in ketosis. My diet is so limited though, that fruit is my only cheat treat so sometimes I definitely eat too much and the next day I usually have symptoms.

 

[gbells]

@gbells that's the first I've ever heard of that. Where do you get this and what are the dosages available? Can you get adenosylcobalamin in vape form?

Here's a popular vendor that I have purchased cyanocobalamin B12 from (50/50 mix in a nic salt device). One bottle lasts a year. It contains no nicotine and works in low current vape devices like the popular Smok Novo 2.

https://hotvapes.com/products/vitamin-b12?variant=31137358938192

I dose by B12 appetite and use it for nerve recovery. I only use a dose of about 2 draws 1-2 x/week for active Craysing apoptosis.

Does it have the same safety concerns as other vape fluids? Any additional information or links you can provide would be greatly appreciated!

The only concern I have heard are some heavy metals from coils but they sell ceramic coil pods that don't have this if people are concerned about the exposure. Aside from that the propellants, propylene glycol and glycerin, are GRAS so there is no problem there.

I would recommend people use a nicotine salt system like the Smok Novo 2 and purchase ceramic coil pods for the cleanest delivery possible. Nicotine salt formulations also generate the lowest amount of vapor.

The main problem with vaping in the news was due to vitamin E being used to cut THC cannabis bootleg pods that were being sold out of mom and pop storefronts. At that time the tobacco company Phillip Morris was marketing a new vaping competitor called IQOS and used the cannabis pods to imply that all vaping was unsafe. This was ridiculous because people have been safely vaping for a decade prior to this as a nicotine cessation tool. Loss of vaping market share pushed people towards IQos which was priced similarly to cigarettes (90% higher than buying synthetic nicotine vape fluid and refilling pods).

Not to say that nicotine isn't troublesome, it impairs DNA repair and causes hypertension but I use it with several other agents to induce shock response for apoptosis and also use Bystolic to counter the hypertension and it also helps apoptosis vs other hypertension drugs which inhibit it. It really is essential to maximize the apoptosis and as one clears virally infected cells they need decreasing amounts of it measured by appetite.

But the B12 is nicotine free so it isn't a concern.

I think it's a great delivery system. The main problem with vaping B12 is knowing how much to take to avoid waste since it isn't metered. People that have good appetite sensing for it handle it easily but most people don't know how to do that. But overdose with B12 isn't a concern as it is water soluble and will just be excreted in urine.

Nerve repair enhancement (ie. carpal tunnel syndrome research) requires 20,000-50,000 IU/day dosing so vaping really shines in the cost savings vs supplements.

I would guestimate that one drag of B12 fluid is about 7500 IU.

 

[drmullin30]

Thanks @gbells this is great info! I will look into this as a new alternative but I need methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin so I'm not sure if I'll find those in vape form. I take horsetail extract which is high in nicotine, I used to smoke cigarettes and I've tried vaping. I'm aware of the benefits of nicotine and the BS of the tobacco companies . Vaping is quite pleasurable so I'm definitely going to look into this. Thanks!

 

[gbells]

Sure thing.

Methylcobalamin vape B12 is available but more expensive as it only comes in single use epens from BreatheB12.com which I have used and are excellent but probably use the metal coils and their disposable nature is hard on the environment. However, I think the metal leaching risk is overblown and would only worry about it if people are using the non-nic salt high cloud vapes.

I'll try to make some methylcobalamin vape fluid and sell it when I get a storefront going. It should be easy.

However I would only use it if someone was having breathlessness or other side effects from all the cyanide in the cyanocobalamin B12 due to high dosing. The cyanide is supposed to be locked to the B12 but I suspect a little can leach out during transformations.

I don't require it at lower doses so I stick with the cheaper cyanocobalamin form which works fine for me.

 

[DogLover]

So, I'm six days into a low oxalate diet and can't say I feel much different. If anything, morning stress is a tad higher than normal, but things like that are so hard to accurately gauge. I'm going to shoot for two weeks and assess.

One thing that helps with my anxiety is Benadryl. I take 12mg whenever symptoms flare up.

 

[DogLover]

Update: I hate to call this a win as I've embarrassed myself a few times before, but it does appear that removing oxalates from my diet has made a big difference. Currently, I'm at the two week mark and after about ten days, I noticed that I was able to relax deeper than before. At this point, I think I'm going to stay on the low oxalate diet for the 30 day mark and then reintroduce them as a test.

 

[drmullin30]

Update: I hate to call this a win as I've embarrassed myself a few times before, but it does appear that removing oxalates from my diet has made a big difference. Currently, I'm at the two week mark and after about ten days, I noticed that I was able to relax deeper than before. At this point, I think I'm going to stay on the low oxalate diet for the 30 day mark and then reintroduce them as a test.

Just a heads up, this could be the honeymoon phase. If you have a lot of stored oxalate you may have dumping symptoms and mineral deficiencies develop. I hope not, but just wanted to make sure your aware. This is what happened to me.

 

[DogLover]

Just a heads up, this could be the honeymoon phase. If you have a lot of stored oxalate you may have dumping symptoms and mineral deficiencies develop. I hope not, but just wanted to make sure your aware. This is what happened to me.

It would appear that I am getting symptoms. After reading through a few oxalate dumping symptom checklists a few things stood out:

-fatigue/anxiety
-scratchy/sore throat**
-headaches**
-mild flu like symptoms
-sore stomach**
- laziness
- mood problems in the morning

** These are unusual for me. I don't have these symptoms at other times.

After searching, I didn't find any good ways to fight oxalate dumping. Therefore, I figured the best way forward is to try to treat symptoms and support general detoxing.

Q: Are there any good strategies to support oxalate detox that worked for you?

UPDATE: Symptoms are flighty and not consistent. Have no idea if oxalate related.

 

[CedarHome]

It would appear that I am getting symptoms. After reading through a few oxalate dumping symptom checklists a few things stood out:

-fatigue/anxiety
-scratchy/sore throat**
-headaches**
-mild flu like symptoms
-sore stomach**
- laziness
- mood problems in the morning

** These are unusual for me. I don't have these symptoms at other times.

After searching, I didn't find any good ways to fight oxalate dumping. Therefore, I figured the best way forward is to try to treat symptoms and support general detoxing.

Q: Are there any good strategies to support oxalate detox that worked for you?

UPDATE: Symptoms are flighty and not consistent. Have no idea if oxalate related.

This post is a little old so hopefully you have gotten some help but if not...


Here's the guidance I just got from a dietician on electrolytes for oxalate dumping:

"When oxalate detoxifying/dumping: Take the following 2-3x/day: Take 15 minutes away from meals.

1/4 cup lemon or lime juice
1/8 tsp each potassium bicarbonate and potassium citrate
1/2 cup water "

 

[gbells]

The Facebook group is private, so they told me to ask Dr. Russell-Jones. I did, and here's his reply:

"Oxalates in food can contribute to levels of oxalate seen in urine, but the contribution is minor, further many people basically shovel oxalate foods into their heads and yet their oxalate levels are not raised. Thus, in our family, we eat lots of leafy green veggies and yet my oxalate level is on the low side at 46, which is about the lowest that I have in 1200 OATs. Elevated oxalate levels though are quite common in both chronic fatigue syndrome and also in autism. Hence if it is not diet, where does it come from?

Plotting all the variables that I have against each other, there is a correlation between levels of glutaric acid and oxalates, meaning that it is a product of reduced levels of functional B2. In functional B2 deficiency, you have a reduced ability to gain energy from fat or sugars and so you have to turn to amino acid breakdown for energy. Thus, in functional B2 deficiency, amino acids are broken down for energy, and glucogenic amino acids, which are broken down to glycolic acid are converted to oxalic acid. So the more B2 deficient you are the higher the oxalates. There are exceptions, which depend upon diet and energy intake"

It is not quite so simple because, glutaric acid metabolism only requires FMN, not FAD, so in Molybdenum deficiency, you can be replete in Iodine and Selenium, and so glutaric acid can be low, BUT, other measures of functional B2 deficiency may still be present."

Cooking inactivates oxalates (spinach, turnip greens).

 

[junkcrap50]

Yes, I use calcium citrate to help absorb oxalate in the gut and to help prevent kidney stones. I need to supplement calcium anyway as I don't eat dairy, grains or nuts and I started having calcium deficiency symptoms years ago when I started methylation protocols before I started low oxalate.

I can tell when I'm dumping oxalates as I often need more calcium during those times (I know based on deficiency symptoms)

Can acquiring a calcium deficiency be that achievable if you don't eat dairy?

How did you know you had a calcium deficiency? What symptoms did you have? How did you differentiate those symptoms for calcium deficiency from other mineral deficiencies?

Could you describe how taking methylation supplements caused your calcium deficiency? I have never heard of methylation causing calcium deficiency, only magnesium and potassium. How did you respond to taking calcium? Which and how quickly did symptoms go away?

I ask because I have had severe muscle pains, cramps, and tightness since doing the Fredd Protocol. At the time, I had been on on a dairy free diet for several years before that (I still am dairy free today). I am reconsidering if calcium deficiency is the cause of my muscle symptoms as I have already pursued many other types of deficiencies (thiamin, b3, folate, b12magnesium, potassium, maybe others too).

EDIT: Pinging @drmullin30 in case that notifies him more reliably.

 

[Booble]

I'm going to put in a plug for adding more red meat into your diet.

When you start going down those paths (like probably most of us have) of --- "I shouldn't eat any of these, and I shouldn't eat any of those and I need to stay away from those other things and I better not eat these thing" --- we end up depriving our system of all kind of things that it needs/wants to feel its best.

Red meat is one of that that many people could benefit from. You can get good grass-fed organic. Original poster mentioned meat causes cancer but that's primarily processed meat. For some dumb reason the studies always put meat and processed meats in the same bucket. You'd be surprised how good a nice piece of steak might make you feel.

I stayed away from red meat way too long myself and felt infinitely better when I added it back in. It not only supplies needed energy but also seems to help with depression, anxiety, etc.

 

[gbells]

I'm going to put in a plug for adding more red meat into your diet.

Don't. The heme groups in red meat increases cytokines (inflammation) which increases your risk of dying from covid. This is partly why the Asian countries (Japan, Thailand) have low covid death rates. Red meat isn't a staple item.