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What constitutes healing of ME/CFS/FMS?

Undisclosed

Senior Member
Messages
10,157
Moderator's Note:

I wonder what the reason is that members feel the need to personally attack each other. It's so unkind and a rule breach. If you don't agree with what somebody has said, by all means disagree, but do NOT resort to provocative and inflammatory comments, personal attacks and other off-topic comments that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter.

We have removed/edited any posts that contain rules breaches. If you see that one of your posts has been moderated and want to know why, you can contact me via Conversation.

Thank you.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Freddd said:
Let's go on 5 mile walk with 2000 feet of vertical each way.
Uphill? Both ways? ;) As long as there's 3 ft of snow on the ground it sounds like my childhood walks to the one-room schoolhouse. :D

Seriously, great post. My biggest regret in all this is that injectable mB12 is not easier to get or less expensive. I'm beginning to wonder if people are missing results because they can't or don't get injections. I quite sure I would not be doing as well as I am without the injectable mB12. Just something I think about occasionally.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Uphill? Both ways? ;) As long as there's 3 ft of snow on the ground it sounds like my childhood walks to the one-room schoolhouse. :D

Seriously, great post. My biggest regret in all this is that injectable mB12 is not easier to get or less expensive. I'm beginning to wonder if people are missing results because they can't or don't get injections. I quite sure I would not be doing as well as I am without the injectable mB12. Just something I think about occasionally.


We would have to have the hike designed by M. C. Escher for it to be up hill both ways. Up is easier on the legs. The price doubled around here with the new rules for compounding pharmacies. We need it produced generically at a reasonable price. 11-12 dollars per injection 3 times a day is expensive. We need to qualify it as "a necessity of life" at least ands get the price affordable.
 

Adster

Senior Member
Messages
600
Location
Australia
@whodathunkit Personally I think a lot of people could miss results with this and other methylation support protocols because they have an illness that is only partially, or perhaps secondarily affected by the functioning of this system.

In this case certain aspects of the protocol might be useful in a "supportive" role, but are limited to that. So, if you have an undiagnosed immune deficiency for example, certain combinations of supplements might support systems burdened by the undiagnosed immune deficiency. Just my 2c :)
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Freddd said:
11-12 dollars per injection 3 times a day is expensive.
That's less expensive than around here. Where are you getting yours? That's out of pocket, right? I have insurance but am afraid they're going to cut me off at my next doctor visit. I need to find a good supply that's not outrageously priced.

@Adster: yes, excellent point. I totally agree about chronic or acute conditions ameliorating or even cancelling the effects of methylation protocols.

And I also realize that some people just can't tolerate the side effects of kick-starting methylation, for whatever the reason. I've had intolerable sides to other things so I know what it is to quit because of that. Always went back later, but I have quit stuff before.

But my larger point was, unless we all can get the best quality supplements, we can't ever know exactly what the best results will be. Regardless of any other attendant conditions. Sublingual mB12 never did much of anything for me. If I'd left it at that and not pursued getting injections, and at a good dosage for me, I'd still be "back there" health-wise and wouldn't be where I am now.

I'm not saying that's the case with everybody. IMO it's just food for thought.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I was completely asymptomatic for a five year period three years into my illness. I was working full time, doing all my normal activities, and had as much energy as before my ME/CFS. In fact, for the first time in my life, for the last four of these five years I found that my body was fine with seven hours sleep instead of the eight I had always needed before. I thought I had really dodged a bullet by recovering completely from ME/CFS.

Then I got sick again, and I've been completely disabled for the last 16 years.

Unless a causative agent for ME/CFS is found and can be eliminated, I think we can talk only in terms of remission - not cure. Remission could be life-long or not, depending on one's individual circumstances.

Note that what I mean when I talk about a causative agent (which may or may not exist) is different from a test or even a biomarker for ME/CFS. During my five-year remission, I never had any PEM (though I did before and after the remission), and I could have passed the two-day CPET with ease. The illness simply was not active then.

Then I got sick again, and I've been completely disabled for the last 16 years.

Bummer. In at least the insurance industry, while I was in it, after a gap of some time, way before 5 years generally, that would be a new occurrence, not a relapse. There is nothing to stop it from happening again. There were two mass illnesses in the early 70s, before Incline Village. Schools in affected areas did not return as scheduled immediately after labor day. I and my wife both had both of these and had a similar crash as I did in 1987 but I got well along with my wife after about 3 weeks. Again, the official story was "miscellaneous entero virus". Some people didn't get well for very extended times having what sure looked and felt like CFS. Though the results were very similar to the 1987 onset, I recovered. I had been sick all fall the previous year with a recurrent (relapsing?) strep. The antibiotic never cleared it and 3 days after going off it was back. In January I got a pneumonia. I was very susceptible to infectious diseases. But none of these similar events were relapse. They were new incidents even though only a year or two apart.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
That's less expensive than around here. Where are you getting yours? That's out of pocket, right? I have insurance but am afraid they're going to cut me off at my next doctor visit. I need to find a good supply that's not outrageously priced.

@Adster: yes, excellent point. I totally agree about chronic or acute conditions ameliorating or even cancelling the effects of methylation protocols.

And I also realize that some people just can't tolerate the side effects of kick-starting methylation, for whatever the reason. I've had intolerable sides to other things so I know what it is to quit because of that. Always went back later, but I have quit stuff before.

But my larger point was, unless we all can get the best quality supplements, we can't ever know exactly what the best results will be. Regardless of any other attendant conditions. Sublingual mB12 never did much of anything for me. If I'd left it at that and not pursued getting injections, and at a good dosage for me, I'd still be "back there" health-wise and wouldn't be where I am now.

I'm not saying that's the case with everybody. IMO it's just food for thought.


"That's less expensive than around here. Where are you getting yours? That's out of pocket, right? I have insurance but am afraid they're going to cut me off at my next doctor visit. I need to find a good supply that's not outrageously priced.

I'm go to a local SLC pharmacy and buy a months worth, 900mg total dose, at a time, in vials. I'm trying to convince the insurance company to cover it. They really don't want to in the worst kind of way Then I have to buy syringes. I inject 10mg SC. I really need the injection of this size for my CNS to hold in remission for SACD. Why would they cut you off if they have been covering it. I was able to cut my monthly pharmacy cost from over $1500 to under $100 a year after starting MeCbl and at 9 months AdoCbl. I had the paradoxical folate deficiency then but no increase as I had it all my life. There are endless scars at the corners of my mouth from nearly lifelong angular cheilitis. IBS was a way of life too, and allergies and MCS and asthma. I had no idea. Then along came Metafolin. At least wee can buy that now at relatively reasonable costs.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
@whodathunkit Personally I think a lot of people could miss results with this and other methylation support protocols because they have an illness that is only partially, or perhaps secondarily affected by the functioning of this system.

In this case certain aspects of the protocol might be useful in a "supportive" role, but are limited to that. So, if you have an undiagnosed immune deficiency for example, certain combinations of supplements might support systems burdened by the undiagnosed immune deficiency. Just my 2c :)

A deficiency of b12s and folate cause huge immune problems. Its worst with methyltrap and partial ATP block. Vitamin C, at 16 grams made a big difference for me. I still take 14 grams a day by retitration after yearlong trials of 4 and 8 grams. Between both C and the Deadlock Quartet I have been mildly ill once, after an initial "last sore throat" after the first few months on MeCbl. This is a total difference from my entire previous life.
 

WillowJ

คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl
Messages
4,940
Location
WA, USA
For me, if I'm taking a billion supplements every day rather than just eating a balanced diet, then I'm not cured or healed.

I would take that as a remission, but be thrilled.

It quite definitely is. I am discussing it and responding. If nobody comments or responds or discusses it's a lousy discussion. I don't know how many will agree or not with you or me or anybody else for that matter. Attitudes are important in healing. If you can't be healed on a diet then you can't be healed is I think an unkind thing to do to one's self.

I think the difference is just semantics. If describing something that, to me or @Adster or anyone else is remission doesn't work for you, don't think of it like that.

If describing something that seems like a cure to you doesn't work for other people in terms of a cure, don't be offended or assume they have a bad attitude.

It would indeed take gene therapy for me to describe a "cure" of a genetic disease (assuming that's what this is), but I'd be happy and content, actually entirely thrilled, with a remission that allowed me to do normal things (aside from needing some extra stuff--if I could do normal things, I could work and afford it... just as long as I can make it from here to there).
 
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Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I would take that as a remission, but be thrilled.



I think the difference is just semantics. If describing something that, to me or @Adster or anyone else is remission doesn't work for you, don't think of it like that.

If describing something that seems like a cure to you doesn't work for other people in terms of a cure, don't be offended or assume they have a bad attitude.

It would indeed take gene therapy for me to describe a "cure" of a genetic disease, but I'd be happy and content, actually entirely thrilled, with a remission that allowed me to do normal things (aside from needing some extra stuff--if I could do normal things, I could work and afford it, no big deal... just as long as I can make it from here to there, whether on my own or with help).


I would think that there would be a lot of debate about having a body that requires 3 natural vitamins instead of being able to use man made pseudo vitamin that we never evolved to use should be termed a "genetic disease". I'm not offended by whatever people think on the issue, I'm more surprised. I understand why many might not want to use the word "cured". To be labeled "genetic disease" might not be a payoff position. It could add millions and millions to "uninsurable" status if that matters or could matter in the future in any given country.



I think the difference is just semantics

Semantics can affect understanding and in some situations be the difference between solvable and unsolvable problems. Semantics is at least a partial cause of this disease. Semantically many of the causes of our symptoms have been amputated from the symptoms. So we have a set of mystery diseases. In calculus one has to learn how to change an equation from one you can't integrate into one that can be integrated. To get a good answer ask a good question. Semantics is very important. Good luck and have fun.
 
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WillowJ

คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl
Messages
4,940
Location
WA, USA
I think the issue is more, if I were healthy in the way that I understand health, I could get what I needed from kale, eggs, etc., rather than buying special supplements from a health food store. In my view, healthy people don't have to take vitamins (or prescription medication) rigorously every day or twice a day, in order to stay feeling normal.

(I think synthetic folic acid should be banned, personally.)

However if I can approximate health with vitamins, or prescription medications, or both, I will be a happy camper. Haven't yet worked out what all my particular body needs, but I'm happy that you have worked it out for you.

If my "approximate health" is your "healthy", then we have both solved the equation (or have the same/substantially similar end solution in mind) in our own way: we are just calling it something different that suits our own various needs.
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
What is a 2-day CPET?
Two maximal cardio pulmonary exercise tests, performed 24 hours apart. Healthy and sedentary controls, as well as those with other diseases who have been tested in this manner, do slightly better on day 2 than day 1. ME patients do significantly worse on day 2.

It basically captures the experience of PEM in a completely objective format, since the test also checks for maximal effort via Respiratory Quotient (RQ) or Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER) which indicate a metabolic switch in energy source.

It can capture even mild patients who are quite active, though they might have normal results on Day 1 of a CPET where a moderate or severe patient would have already pretty bad results on Day 1.

I'd consider a big drop in day 2 of a patient pre-treatment, followed by no drop post-treatment, to be an extremely good indicator of recovery, remission, or adequate control of the disease via ongoing medication.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
We would have to have the hike designed by M. C. Escher for it to be up hill both ways. Up is easier on the legs. The price doubled around here with the new rules for compounding pharmacies. We need it produced generically at a reasonable price. 11-12 dollars per injection 3 times a day is expensive. We need to qualify it as "a necessity of life" at least ands get the price affordable.

I find uphill harder work on the whole, presumably due to the need to use more energy to combat a little thing called gravity. :D Each time I stop to rest I have to turn round to face downhill to allow the backs of my knees (and calves?) to slacken a bit (and no - I don't wear high heels!).

Coming back downhill is harder on the front of my knees, which can buckle slightly if I'm having a bad-leg day, but requires less energy on the whole, and is relatively manageable even after walking round the shops for over an hour.

It's a very steep hill, but mercifully not a 5-mile one! :eek:

It would be very nice to be able to walk 5 miles again. Maybe one day...
 

Sherpa

Ex-workaholic adrenaline junkie
Messages
699
Location
USA
For me, being cured would mean being able to make friends and have a relationship... and be solid and reliable... without cancelling plans, flaking out, avoiding situations and disappointing people due to having low energy or crashes.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
For me, being cured would mean being able to make friends and have a relationship... and be solid and reliable... without cancelling plans, flaking out, avoiding situations and disappointing people due to having low energy or crashes.


These are good practical secondary indicators that a person is doing a lot better, being able to do normal things of a normal life.
 

Adster

Senior Member
Messages
600
Location
Australia
@Freddd

Here's a different take on it:

If you are practising medicine in any capacity, which you appear to be, even if not-for-profit, I think it's really important to give realistic expectations of a treatment. In my opinion,if you were to say, for example, "CFS/ME/FMS can be healed or cured" using your protocol, it could create unrealistic expectations, given the typical understanding of those terms.

To say, for example, "In some cases, this protocol can significantly reduce symptoms, or possibly even achieve remission, in people with a CFS/ME/FMS diagnosis" would be more accurate. In my opinion.

The ability of sick people to make fully informed treatment decisions is very, very important. Choice of words plays a big part in this.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
Adster said:
@Freddd

Here's a different take on it:

If you are practising medicine in any capacity, which you appear to be, even if not-for-profit, I think it's really important to give realistic expectations of a treatment. In my opinion,if you were to say, for example, "CFS/ME/FMS can be healed or cured" using your protocol, it could create unrealistic expectations, given the typical understanding of those terms.

To say, for example, "In some cases, this protocol can significantly reduce symptoms, or possibly even achieve remission, in people with a CFS/ME/FMS diagnosis" would be more accurate. In my opinion. The ability of sick people to make fully informed treatment decisions is very, very important. Choice of words plays a big part in this.
I agree that semantics are extremely important. It's really important to not create unrealistic expectations. But IMO it's even more important to keep hope alive, or maybe create hope of new possibilities where before hope did not exist.. Striking a balance between the two is frequently very hard.

For example, saying "CFS/ME/FMS can be cured using XXX protocol" is NOT the same thing as saying "You will cure your CFS/ME/FMS if you use XXX protocol". I think even sick people are capable of understanding the difference between "can" and "will".

At any rate, "can"-type language is used in medicine all the time. My mother was told that she could (can) cure her breast cancer using lumpectomy and radiation. She was not told radiation/lumpectomy would (will) cure her breast cancer, but that her cancer was something that can be cured if the right combination of therapies was used. She was also told that some tweaking of the regimen might have to occur, based on the results of her initial therapies.

My father was told the same thing when he was diagnosed with lung cancer, although his prognosis was much poorer. But was told his cancer could be cured if everything fell into place correctly. Far from creating unrealistic expectations, this language gave him hope even in the face of almost the worst diagnosis anyone can get.

I see our work with methylation as much the same type of thing as is practiced in cancer medicine. It's personalized, and a variety of therapies may be used depending on the person and the person's condition.

From my perspective, one of the biggest roadblocks we face here in being on the cutting edge of type of "personalized health" is that we don't have much authority to appeal to. Doctors are frequently wrong about many things, but just having them as authority to appeal to is comforting to many people. Not having that authority (like when being treated for cancer by an oncologist) can be a big psychological barrier to progress when the path to wellness is not a straight upward trajectory. Which it's not around here.

The other biggest roadblock I see is that most people inexperienced in alternative health starting doing something like methylation supps, and they expect taking a few supplements to be like taking antibiotics for infection: one smooth course of pills for a projected amount of time and then everything is done. All better! But health in general and alternative health in particular usually doesn't work like that. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the course of healing usually proceeds (it's frequently worse than the course to chronic illness). IMHO it's not language that creates unrealistic expectations so much as the lack of experience and/or lack of understanding.

Speaking for myself, I've had what I consider to be a long, hard battle with my health. Maybe not as hard as some people have had, but it's been bad enough. I've suffered at times from fatigue so severe I could barely drag myself out of bed to use the bathroom. I've suffered from chronic anemia for years and to this day lose over a pint of blood in 24 hours every single month due to female problems. That's always a lot of fun and creates a special type of irritable exhaustion. I've had brain fog so bad i couldn't think. For years I had monthly cramps so bad I would scream and vomit. At times I've lost hope in ever being well, to the point where I've been so suicidal I've actually had a gun in my mouth (more than once). A timely kiss on the leg by one of my dogs saved me from that once. A sudden glimmer of hope filtering into my mind from out of nowhere saved me another time.

Which is my larger point here: hearing that their problems can be cured gives people hope. IMHO hope is more important than anything else in this process. It can get smashed by unrealistic expectations but still come back if the right language is used to promote it.

Imparting understanding that the course of recovering health is not smooth is the second most important thing in this process.

When I hit this board I had given up hope that my energy problems would ever be cured. What I actually came here for was to maybe find a way to help me regrow some hair that I've lost. But energy and cognitive function? Meh. Pretty much given up on that. I had resigned myself to much reduced functioning for whatever years I have left. Also had resigned myself to the chronic galloping munchies, driving me to eat more than I needed and never being able to lose any weight.

But instead of hair, what I found here was @Freddd, imparting HOPE that with a lot of patience, hard work, and a willingness to experiment, I might actually *cure* my most pressing problems. I could lose weight! I could regain some energy! His experience was a total inspiration to me. Then as I read more and saw some other people here were having the same results, hope grew. I had my own encouraging results starting out, and hope is now stronger than ever.

It hasn't been easy or a straight upward trajectory for me. I got really sick when I first started the protocol...I was out of work for a week. I've had quite a variety of symptoms, from insomnia to extreme sleepiness, from being very calm to being hyper and hyper-irritable, and my energy still fluctuates up and down, sometimes to a disheartening degree. I still get brainfog...just recovering from a week where I haven't been able to concentrate on anything that requires more than stream of consciousness (like posting here :) ).

But I now have hope that, with my understanding of how the course of healing goes, I can one day lick these problems. I may never actually do it. I may never achieve my goal of feeling like I'm 25 again. My expectations may be unrealistic. But does that mean I shouldn't try? Does that mean I shouldn't hope for better than I've got now, even though what I've got now is much better than what I had four months ago?

I don't think it does.

So while I believe we should all strive not to create unrealistic expectations, I also believe it's even more important not to squelch discussion of the possibilities. What CAN happen with these supplements, if we persist and don't quit.

Freddd is a good example of what CAN happen. Not necessarily what WILL happen in every case, but what CAN. Personally, that gives me hope.

Just my $0.02. :)
 
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