Vit D -- good for brain, bad for body

[Wonkmonk]

That's interesting, but I can say with great confidence that I was deficient in none of those micronutrients. I even took some supplements of them with the Vitamin D (Magnesium, Zinc, B Vitamins).

I also noticed that things deteriorated irrespective of source of Vitamin D (sun in the summer vs. supplements in winter). Effects were about the same.

So that's why I think, in my case, adverse effects of Vitamin D were neither due to deficiencies nor due to taking the unsulfated version. It must be something about the Vitamin D itself. Plus it was much worse at those times when I took calcium supplements with the Vitamin D, so I believe the effect is because of Vitamin D improves calcium absorption.

From whatever angle I approach the issue, I always become convinced that there is a real issue with calcium, at least in some CFS patients.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I can only think of K2-mk4 which also lowers glutamate.

Tried that, didn't help

 

[Wonkmonk]

Dr Cheney states this too! He says Magnesium injections can help, they keep magnesium inside the cell for 4-6 hours. [...]

if I has a lot of money I would fund Dr John McLaren-Howard [...] and see if he could measure different substances and see if any STOP the calcium leaking into the cell/ knocking magnesium out.

How can we get well if Magnesium, which is required for ATP reactions, keeps leaking out of the cell?

The funny thing is: my serum magnesium is also below the norm and magnesium supplements (up to 1000mg a day) didn't help. But unlike calcium, they also did not cause adverse effects, so I think magnesium isn't the problem (at least in my case). I suspect it's excess calcium.

 

[Mij]

My experience with vitamin D . . . levels stayed low (while supplementing) until I increased my magnesium levels. I can not take more than 2000iu/day or sit out in the sun for more than 1/2 hour or start to feel worse . . . I'm pretty certain it reactives herpes viruses in my case.

 

[anni66]

The funny thing is: my serum magnesium is also below the norm and magnesium supplements (up to 1000mg a day) didn't help. But unlike calcium, they also did not cause adverse effects, so I think magnesium isn't the problem (at least in my case). I suspect it's excess calcium.

There' s only around 1% of magnesium in serum. Most is in tissues and bone. Low serum magnesium can indicate issues as the body will "pull" magnesium from tissue and bones into blood to maintain homeostasis ( i think for cardiac function). Could be kidney issues- you should get this checked out.

 

[Wonkmonk]

I did, no kidney issues (before high-dose Valacyclovir that is).

I additionally suspect that too much potassium is also bad for me. I had a pretty high intake (probably 5-6 grams a day) in the past 9 months, because I thought it is healthy to have a lot of it.

I cut it down in the past days to see what happens, and it seems like it improves my symptoms a bit.

I think I shouldn't go above 30 ng/ml Vitamin D, 1000 mg calcium and 3500 mg potassium a day. Sodium and magnesium don't seem to negatively affect me.

I really think there is something wrong in CFS patients with ion channels and especially calcium and potassium.

 

[renski]

YES

Now I know why. The extra Vitamin D increases calcium uptake which increases inflammation. It also increases glutamate.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding it but Yasko says the opposite, vit d should actually reduce glutamate

 

[keenly]

My experience with vitamin D . . . levels stayed low (while supplementing) until I increased my magnesium levels. I can not take more than 2000iu/day or sit out in the sun for more than 1/2 hour or start to feel worse . . . I'm pretty certain it reactives herpes viruses in my case.

Hormone D via sunlight not supplements.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

I can only think of K2-mk4 which also lowers glutamate.

Some people can feel worse because vitamin D can induce deficiencies, especially magnesium deficiency

AS @PatJ noted, Vit D metabolizing can exhaust your body's supply of magnesium. And calcium can ride rough shod over a lot of things, including GABA/Glutamate balance, without adding in MK7 and MK4, both of which escort calcium to where it belongs: in your bones and in your teeth.

Replenishing your magnesium stores will also help block excess uptake of calcium since at higher doses they block each other's absorption.

I had to drop Vit D for a couple of years until I started supplementing with magnesium, in my own intuitive and weird methodology. Once I did that, I was able to start adding Vit D back in small doses, increasing it gradually to a med-high range dose of 5-7000 IU, coupled with a separated dose of MK-7 and MK-4, as mentioned by @Gondwanaland, usually by at least 12 hours. So Vit D in the AM, MK's in the evening.

 

[pamojja]

5-7000 IU, coupled with a separated dose of MK-7 and MK-4, as mentioned by @Gondwanaland, usually by at least 12 hours. So Vit D in the AM, MK's in the evening.

Why the separation? I use D3 in the morning together with K-vitamins, and again in the afternoon due to the short half-life of K2-mk4.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Why the separation?

I think we've had this convo before, or at least I've had it with someone on one of these threads.

Vit D in high amounts will inhibit the absorption of MK-7 and MK-4, and vice-versa. Don't have the energy or focus today to dig up all the citations I made for that the last time this issue was raised. Don't mean to be snide or dismissive, just running on close to empty ....

 

[pamojja]

I think we've had this convo before, or at least I've had it with someone on one of these threads.

Must have been someone else. We had a discussion about Mg-oxide. What does convo mean?

Maybe @Gondwanaland can help?

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

What does convo mean?

Shorthand for the very tired or very lazy for 'conversation'

And you're right .... it was someone else, apologies

Here's a starter sample of the interaction between Vit D and the MK's:

ACU-CELL:
Best time to take Vitamin D: Morning to afternoon; preferably with fatty food.

Vitamin D Synergists: Magnesium, boron, selenium*, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, lycopene, UV rays, Vitamin A*.

Vitamin D Antagonists / Inhibitors: Calcium, strontium, cadmium, Vitamin K*, Vitamin A*, alcohol, mineral oil, oral steroids.
* Dose-dependent - They are co-factors at normal levels, and antagonists at higher levels.

Best time to take Vitamin K: Morning to afternoon; preferably with fatty food.
Best time to take :
Vitamin K Synergists: Calcium, copper, Vitamin B5, flavonoids, Vitamin D*. [Vitamin K protects against Vitamin D overdose].
Synergists:
Vitamin K Antagonists / Inhibitors: Vitamin A, Vitamin E, mineral oil, oxalates, alcohol, Coenzyme Q10, blood thinners / anticoagulants (coumadin), Antibiotics - by killing intestinal bacteria.
Antagonists / Inhibitors:
* Dose-dependent - They are co-factors at normal levels, and antagonists at higher levels.

DR. STEVEN LIN:
Take your Vitamin K2 supplement with your dinner that includes dietary fat or at bedtime, 8 to 12 hours after you take your Vitamin D3. Most people take their D3 with breakfast and K2 at dinner time and this seems sensible, as some research shows that D3 is more effective if not taken at the same time as K2.

CONSUMER LABS
However, evidence (mainly from animal and cell studies) suggests that moderate to large doses of fat-soluble vitamins reduce absorption of other fat-soluble vitamins - by about 10 to 50% - due to competition. Absorption of vitamin K appears to be particularly reduced by other fat-soluble vitamins

Absorption of vitamin K appears to be particularly reduced by other fat-soluble vitamins ……. (which would include Vit D)

While there do not appear to be substantial numbers of studies demonstrating reduced Vit K absorption in human subjects due to Vit D, it may be best to take Vit K at least 3 hours apart from Vit D, and not in combination “bone health” formulas which include Vit D. Keep in mind that such formulas are rarely clinically tested on human subjects for ingredient absorption, let alone for efficacy and safety.

A laboratory experiment using intestinal cells from mice found that uptake of Vit K was reduced by approximately half by Vitamins A, D, and E, likely due to competition for absorption among these fat-soluble vitamins (Goncalves, Food Chem 2015)


MENAQUINONE-7 SUPPLEMENTATION TO REDUCE VASCULAR CALCIFICATION IN PATIENTS WITH CORONARY ARTERY DISEASE (NCBI, MC, 2015 Nov; 7
Inhibition of the vitamin-K-cycle by vitamin K antagonists (VKA) results in the accumulation of uncarboxylated MGP which is biologically inactive. This is associated with extensive arterial calcification in experimental animals [5,8]. In line with the experimental data, humans on VKA treatment also tend to have more aortic and valve calcification in comparison to patients not on anticoagulant therapy

As an aside, Vitamin D doses also inhibit or stop the production of melatonin, asnother reason for taking your Vitamin D with an earlier meal than dinner if you have problems with insomnia.

 

[pamojja]

As an aside, Vitamin D doses also inhibit or stop the production of melatonin, asnother reason for taking your Vitamin D with an earlier meal than dinner

Thanks. Yes, that's why I take vitamin D with the morning meal. However, haven't personally experienced the inhibition of vitamin D intake on vitamin K absorbtion, on the contrary. My average serum levels:

Vitamin D3: 70 ng/ml (30-100 normal range)
Retinol: 601 µg/l (425-831)
CoQ10: 5.1 µg/ml (0.8-1,4)
Vitamin K1: 9.9 µg/l (0.22-2.28)

All taken together in the morning, and without the vitamin D also evening in meals with healthy fats. Only vitamin E from the fat-solubles not tested, of which is also said to inhibit absorbtion of vitamin K.

Probably the inhibition only occurs, with the low vitamin K intake from dietary sources.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Probably the inhibition only occurs, with the low vitamin K intake from dietary sources.

Could be. Glad that what you're doing is working for you, that's always heartening .

 

[gbells]

Trevor Marshall states that Vit D is a steroid and that in ME patients the organisms convert the vitamin from a useful form to a nonuseful form. As a fat soluble vitamin I initally dosed it once per week at 5000 iu. However, with my apoptosis regimen I've noticed a huge craving for vit D so I'm taking a lot more. I figure that my body needs it and it isn't slowing anything down. Still getting burning pain, etc.

 

[linusbert]

Now I know why. The extra Vitamin D increases calcium uptake which increases inflammation. It also increases glutamate.

i read that calcium also decreases inflammation. probably its like with most things the balance and amount.

question to y'all,
do you have a difference with vitamin D tolerance with intake scheme? is daily/ weekly/ monthly better/worse tolerated?

also did you try calcifediol? for me it seams different. i get side effects immediately but only on that day, whereas with cholecalciferol i get sideffects like 2-3 days later. getting better after 4-7 days.


also wrote this in the other thread https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...light-making-your-me-worse.55565/#post-927023 :
---

as everyone i do tolerate D not well.

but i do not tolerate sun light well as well. i even do not tolerate infrared light, gives me same unpleasant feeling. swets, high heartrate...
so i guess this are 2 different things. maybe radiation or excess heat isnt handled well.

vitamin D might increase metabolic rate which increases energy needs which maybe cannot be fullfilled in cfs state.
i do not tolerate anything that increases metabolism.. and everything that does slow metabolism makes me feel better at first until adapting to this.

maybe this is even the problem for sunlight. bright light increases maybe metabolism as well. its used as anti depressent in nordic countries completely without UV light. so it could be that.


what i found out once. when i had high like 89ng/ml vitamin d levels but did not supplement oral i was just fine. only when i took another round of supplemental vitamin D problems appear.
my allergies and asthma was pretty good at that time. thats also the reason i am forced to retry D again and again to keep these at bay :/

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

as everyone i do tolerate D not well.

I had problems with Vit D as well, until I started taking pretty high doses of magnesium. Vit D sucks up magnesium like a giant Hoover in it's absorption and utilization by the body, so that might be one of the problems you could be having.

i read that calcium also decreases inflammation. probably its like with most things the balance and amount.

That study on calcium and inflammation was done on vitamin D-deficient patients with type 2 diabetes, so I'm not sure how it would apply to the general population, or to us, specifically.

question to y'all,
do you have a difference with vitamin D tolerance with intake scheme?

Do you take any MK-7 or MK-4? It's critical to the proper utilization of the calcium that Vit D liberates into your bloodstream, and could make the difference in how you react to it, along with enough magnesium.

If you're looking to reduce inflammation, curcumin (I use a turmeric/curcumin combination product in case science missed a constituent in turmeric that produces a lot of good, other than the curcumin) might be helpful. It's one of the most potent anti-inflammatory supplements, and significantly reduces the inflammation associated with a lot of chronic health conditions. It may even be effective in diminishing inflammation caused by cancer, tho the evidence supporting that is still fairly weak.

Generally speaking, difficulties with Vit D can often indicate a shortfall in something else, often magnesium. Maybe hit the google machine and see what makes sense to you ....

 

[linusbert]

I had problems with Vit D as well, until I started taking pretty high doses of magnesium. Vit D sucks up magnesium like a giant Hoover in it's absorption and utilization by the body, so that might be one of the problems you could be having.

That study on calcium and inflammation was done on vitamin D-deficient patients with type 2 diabetes, so I'm not sure how it would apply to the general population, or to us, specifically.

Do you take any MK-7 or MK-4? It's critical to the proper utilization of the calcium that Vit D liberates into your bloodstream, and could make the difference in how you react to it, along with enough magnesium.

If you're looking to reduce inflammation, curcumin (I use a turmeric/curcumin combination product in case science missed a constituent in turmeric that produces a lot of good, other than the curcumin) might be helpful. It's one of the most potent anti-inflammatory supplements, and significantly reduces the inflammation associated with a lot of chronic health conditions. It may even be effective in diminishing inflammation caused by cancer, tho the evidence supporting that is still fairly weak.

Generally speaking, difficulties with Vit D can often indicate a shortfall in something else, often magnesium. Maybe hit the google machine and see what makes sense to you ....

thanks for detailed reply.

magnesium i do put my feed into mg chlorid water. i do not tolerate mg so well right now, it feels like calcium deficiency. i used to tolerate mg well , one of the few things. but since a few month not anymore.
same with vitamin C. i suspect it gives me weird muscle weakness and burning on the next day. (or the magnesium).

k2 is complicated. k2 mk7 drives my blood pressure to the moon. mk4 i did not tolerate because my stomach gets inflammed of it. last time i tried i had pain for a week on every gulp. like esophagus was inflammed.
maybe allergy to some parts of it. i react to palm oil and maybe geraniol. i got a new product without palm oil, will try again.

i cant take any plant extracts. i am allergic to so many things or its a histamin reaction, i dont know. but plants give me stomach pain. and sometimes asthma and cough.
i also have chronic stomach inflamation.

what i do now is that i have copper deficiency and coeruloplasmin deficiency. but i eat a lot copper in food and dont tolerate any supplements.


i cant google anymore because i googled the whole internet empty.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

thanks for detailed reply.

Oh, you're sooooo welcome . I like detailed answers, but some people don't.

I always feel obliged to share anything that I know, especially if I've learned it the hard way (is there any other?), and if I think it might help a fellow-sufferer ....

i used to tolerate mg well , one of the few things. but since a few month not anymore.

What form of mag were you taking? Oxide, malate lactate, taurate, etc etc etc ???

i cant take any plant extracts. i am allergic to so many things or its a histamin reaction, i dont know. but plants give me stomach pain. and sometimes asthma and cough.
i also have chronic stomach inflamation.

Oh sweetie ... you're really between a rolling rock and a spiky hard place. That has to be AWFUL .... I wish I could think of something other than a serious MCAS reaction, about which I know very little. Have you worn out the google machine on that one yet?

what i do now is that i have copper deficiency and coeruloplasmin deficiency. but i eat a lot copper in food and dont tolerate any supplements.

Carp !!! Uh, crap .... (bad bad typist)

i cant google anymore because i googled the whole internet empty.

....

Oh, do I hear that !!!!