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Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Hanna, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Jerusalem, Israel
    Hi all,

    On an other thread, Asklipia mentionned MK-4 as the treatment that helped him most. I quote : "Menatetrenone (MK4 sold under the name "Glakay" by Eisai (Japan) 60% cured if you can give such a rating".


    Has someone else also tested K-2 with some success?
    What were the symptoms that were alleviated ?
    What profil of ME/CFS have you? (how long/ suddent or progressive onset/ viral or infectious load etc)

    Thank you in advance for the info.
    Best,
    Hanna
  2. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi Hanna,
    I see I am the only one!!!!!
    To understand more, take a look at this site :
    http://jackkruse.com/osteoporosis-two-the-vitamin-k2-story/

    Symptoms gone :
    Muscular and joint pain, insomnia (impossible to sleep, waking up in the night), night sweats, general weakness and dizziness, wired feeling, depression, loss of directions, confused thinking, memory loss of parts of my life, short term memory loss, hair loss, eyebrows bare, exhaustion whenever I do more than an hour's work, cannot stand flying because sick for days after that (business class better though > makes traveling very expensive), no dreams, interstitial cystitis, cannot stand company as this is too much stress, weight gain, inability to practice my art.

    After two years (6 months on 15 mg/day MK4 followed by 18 months 45 mg/day MK4) symptoms left (were there more or less from the beginning) :
    dry mouth, dry eyes, ongoing deteriorating vision, still some loss of eyebrows, painful intercoursen not so much energy as at the start (I was 40 then, this is 20 years later so maybe it is normal?).

    After adding one week of Bains Drivatifs all dryness gone + lots of old memories coming back. I have been doing that now everyday for 4 months).

    After adding B12 and B2 for 6 weeks now, still doing MK4 and B.D., more energy. Vision is not back but seems to have stabilized (not sure).

    Apart from this (6 months now) : 20 mns a week in a thermal lake which is half sea water/half sulphurous water. This was exhausting at first but now is invigorating. Twice a week sunbathing for at least 40 mns (mainly prone as I feel the D kicking in if I am in this position. Most probably it happens at the back of the neck, this is what I feel)

    Best,
    Asklipia
  3. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    I have taken K2 for a long time. The only symptom it helped with was stopping me getting such awful heavy periods. It definitely helped a lot with that but didn't change anyting else at all.
    Eventually I stopped because it is a very expensive vitamin.
    BTW if you do decide to try it, I found the effect from various brands varied vastly - some are just useless and do nothing at all.
    Thorne is OK, Solgar was useless, the best was Vitamin Research Products.
    Rolo and triffid113 like this.
  4. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    Jerusalem, Israel
    Thanks to you Asklepia and Athene.
  5. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Vitamin K2, and all other fat soluble vitamins as well, increase inflammation in my tendons. I don't know why. No other effects noted.
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I think there are different types. MK7 did nothing for me, made me feel vaguely irritated. MK4 was what helped me.
    Vitamin Research was not OK for me, even though I think it was MK4. There is some kind of excitotoxicity coming from it. Most probably hydrogenated oil.
    I don't know about the rest of the brands cited, they might not be MK4 so nothing I can recommend as having helped me.
  7. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Asklipia,
    I just had a look at wiki and they clearly have different actions, I mean MK7 vs. MK4. I did not know this difference before your post. It seems MK2 has a role in regulating calcium metabolism, take it out of soft tissues like arteries and put it where it belongs. I need to look into it to understand a bit more. Thanks for pointing that out.
    What brand have you been taking?

    PS:I have been indeed taking MK7
  8. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    High dietary menaquinone intake is associated with reduced coronary calcification.
    Beulens JW, Bots ML, Atsma F, Bartelink ML, Prokop M, Geleijnse JM, Witteman JC, Grobbee DE, van der Schouw YT.
    Source
    Julius Center for Health Sciences and Primary Care, University Medical Center Utrecht, The Netherlands. J.Beulens@umcutrecht.nl
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:
    Dietary vitamin K is thought to decrease risk of cardiovascular disease by reducing coronary calcification, but inconsistent results are reported. This may be due to different effects of vitamin K(1) (phylloquinone) and vitamin K(2) (menaquinone, MK), but few studies included both.
    METHODS:
    We investigated the association of intake of phylloquinone and menaquinone, including its subtypes (MK4-MK10), with coronary calcification in a cross-sectional study among 564 post-menopausal women. Phylloquinone and menaquinone intake was estimated using a food-frequency questionnaire.
    RESULTS:
    Sixty-two percent (n=360) of the women had coronary calcification based on 1.5-mm thick slices. Phylloquinone intake was not associated with coronary calcification with a relative risk (RR) of 1.17 (95%-confidence interval: 0.96-1.42; p(trend)=0.11) of the highest versus lowest quartile. Menaquinone intake was associated with decreased coronary calcification with an RR of 0.80 (95%-CI: 0.65-0.98; p(trend)=0.03).
    CONCLUSION:
    This study shows that high dietary menaquinone intake, but probably not phylloquinone, is associated with reduced coronary calcification. Adequate menaquinone intakes could therefore be important to prevent cardiovascular disease.


    Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2009 Sep;19(7):504-10. Epub 2009 Jan 28.
    A high menaquinone intake reduces the incidence of coronary heart disease.
    Gast GC, de Roos NM, Sluijs I, Bots ML, Beulens JW, Geleijnse JM, Witteman JC, Grobbee DE, Peeters PH, van der Schouw YT.
    Source
    Julius Center for Health Sciences and Primary Care, University Medical Center Utrecht, 3508 GA Utrecht, The Netherlands. g.c.m.gast@umcutrecht.nl
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND AND AIM:
    Vitamin K dependent proteins have been demonstrated to inhibit vascular calcification. Data on the effect of vitamin K intake on coronary heart disease (CHD) risk, however, are scarce. To examine the relationship between dietary vitamins K(1) and K(2) intake, and its subtypes, and the incidence of CHD.
    METHODS AND RESULTS:
    We used data from the Prospect-EPIC cohort consisting of 16,057 women, enrolled between 1993 and 1997 and aged 49-70 years, who were free of cardiovascular diseases at baseline. Intake of vitamin K and other nutrients was estimated with a food frequency questionnaire. Multivariate Cox proportional hazards models were used to analyse the data. After a mean+/-SD follow-up of 8.1+/-1.6 years, we identified 480 incident cases of CHD. Mean vitamin K(1) intake was 211.7+/-100.3 microg/d and vitamin K(2) intake was 29.1+/-12.8 microg/d. After adjustment for traditional risk factors and dietary factors, we observed an inverse association between vitamin K(2) and risk of CHD with a Hazard Ratio (HR) of 0.91 [95% CI 0.85-1.00] per 10 microg/d vitamin K(2) intake. This association was mainly due to vitamin K(2) subtypes MK-7, MK-8 and MK-9. Vitamin K(1) intake was not significantly related to CHD.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    A high intake of menoquinones, especially MK-7, MK-8 and MK-9, could protect against CHD. However, more research is necessary to define optimal intake levels of vitamin K intake for the prevention of CHD.


    Thromb Res. 2008;122(3):411-7. Epub 2008 Jan 30.
    Effects of the blood coagulation vitamin K as an inhibitor of arterial calcification.
    Wallin R, Schurgers L, Wajih N.
    Source
    Department of Internal Medicine, Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Medical Center Boulevard, Winston-Salem, North Carolina 27157, USA. rwallin@wfubmc.edu
    Abstract
    INTRODUCTION:
    The transformation of smooth muscle cells (VSMCs) in the vessel wall to osteoblast like cells is known to precede arterial calcification which may cause bleeding complications. The vitamin K-dependent protein MGP has been identified as an inhibitor of this process by binding BMP-2, a growth factor known to trigger the transformation. In this study, we determined if the vitamin K-dependent Gla region in MGP by itself can inhibit the growth factor activity of BMP-2 and if menaquinone-4 (MK4) regulates gene expression in VSMCs.
    MATERIALS AND METHODS:
    A synthetic gamma-carboxyglutamic acid (Gla) containing peptide covering the Gla region in human MGP was used to test its ability to inhibit BMP-2 induced transformation of mouse pro-myoblast C2C12 cells into osteoblasts. MK4 was tested by microarray analysis as a gene regulatory molecule in VSMCs.
    RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS:
    The results show that the Gla - but not the Glu-peptide inhibited the transformation which provide evidence that the Gla region in MGP is directly involved in the BMP-2/MGP interaction and emphasizes the importance of the vitamin K-dependent modification of MGP. From the data obtained from the microarray analysis, we focused on two quantitatively altered cDNAs representing proteins known to be associated with vessel wall calcification. DT-diaphorase of the vitamin K-cycle, showed increased gene expression with a 4.8-fold higher specific activity in MK4 treated cells. Osteoprotegrin gene expression was down regulated and osteoprotegrin protein secretion from the MK4 treated cells was lowered to 1.8-fold. These findings suggest that MK4 acts as an anti-calcification component in the vessel wall.
  9. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Lipids Health Dis. 2011 Sep 13;10:158.
    Menaquinone-4 enhances testosterone production in rats and testis-derived tumor cells.
    Ito A, Shirakawa H, Takumi N, Minegishi Y, Ohashi A, Howlader ZH, Ohsaki Y, Sato T, Goto T, Komai M.
    Source
    Laboratory of Nutrition, Graduate School of Agricultural Science, Tohoku University, Sendai 981-8555, Japan.
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:
    Vitamin K is essential for the posttranslational modification of various Gla proteins. Although it is widespread in several organs, including the testis, the function of vitamin K in these organs is not well characterized. In this study, we investigated the function of vitamin K in the testis and analyzed its role in steroidogenesis.
    METHODS:
    Eight-week-old male Wistar rats were fed a diet supplemented with menaquinone-4 (MK-4, 75 mg/kg diet), one of the predominant K? vitamins present in the testis, for 5 weeks. In vivo testosterone levels of the rats' plasma and testes were measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay, and in vitro testosterone levels of testis-derived tumor cells (I-10 cells) maintained in Ham's F-10 medium with 10% fetal bovine serum were measured following treatment with MK-4 (0 to 100 ?M) at several time points. Testosterone and cellular protein levels were analyzed with respect to their effects on steroidogenesis.
    RESULTS:
    Testosterone levels in the plasma and testes of MK-4-fed rats were significantly increased compared to those of control rats, with no obvious differences in plasma luteinizing hormone levels. Secreted testosterone levels from I-10 cells were elevated by MK-4, but not by vitamin K?, in a dose-dependent manner independent of cAMP treatment. Western blot analysis revealed that expression of CYP11A, the rate-limiting enzyme in steroidogenesis, and phosphorylation levels of protein kinase A (PKA) and the cAMP response element-binding protein were all stimulated by the presence of MK-4. Enhancement of testosterone production was inhibited by H89, a specific inhibitor of PKA, but not by warfarin, an inhibitor of ?-glutamylcarboxylation.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    MK-4 stimulates testosterone production in rats and testis-derived tumor cells via activation of PKA. MK-4 may be involved in steroidogenesis in the testis, and its supplementation could reverse the downregulation of testosterone production in elders.


    Oncol Rep. 2009 Sep;22(3):599-604.
    Inhibition of matrix metalloproteinase expression by menatetrenone, a vitamin K2 analogue.
    Ide Y, Zhang H, Hamajima H, Kawaguchi Y, Eguchi Y, Mizuta T, Yamamoto K, Fujimoto K, Ozaki I.
    Source
    Department of Internal Medicine, Saga Medical School, Saga University, Saga 849-8501, Japan.
    Abstract
    Vitamin K2 (VK2) has been shown to have a potent anti-tumor effect against several cancer types including hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC), but the mechanisms remain to be elucidated. Matrix metalloproteinase (MMP) plays an important role in the invasion and metastasis of cancer cells, but it is not known whether VK2 regulates the expression of MMPs. Human HCC cell lines were treated with VK2 combined with 12-O-tetradecanoyl phorbol-13 acetate (TPA) and the expression of MMPs was examined by reporter gene assay, RT-PCR and Western blotting. VK2 inhibited the basal and TPA-induced expression of MMP-1, -3 and -7 at the transcriptional, mRNA and protein levels in a dose-dependent manner. VK2 also inhibited the TPA-induced activation of NF-kappaB and AP-1 activity. The inhibitors against NF-kappaB and mitogen-activated protein kinases (MAP kinase) including ERK and JNK pathways suppressed TPA-induced luciferase activity of MMP-1, -3 and -7 promoters. These data suggest that VK2 inhibits MMP expression by suppressing NF-kappaB and MAP kinase activity and might be potentially useful in the treatment of HCC.

    Seems to have anti-inflammatory action. MMPs 1 and 3 are also stimulated in Lyme causing tissue damage. NF-kB is also activated.
  10. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    xrunner this is the brand I used : MK4 sold under the name "Glakay" by Eisai (Japan).

    I bought it first when in Japan. It is available in Thailand, Vietnam and Laos. There are generics for it sold by 2000 pill bottles. Yes this is not a typo : two thousand. Sold guess where : in Japanese spas as a "feel young" miracle drug. For the real stuff you need a prescription in Japan. It is quite expensive but well worth the expense, especially since I found by trial and error that brands vary hugely in quality. Eisai are the ones that first developed it. From an online pharmacy the price is around 18 USD for 30 pills 15 mg each.
    There is quite a lot of research on it in Korea.

    It seems that Eisai will NOT export their product to the USA or Europe. Most probably a commercial carving up of the world, since research is done by the Dutch in Europe on MK-7 (they are very good at cheeses and hence at producing this type). Not surprisingly in the West this is what is being promoted as "Vitamin K2". Sometimes it is sold without any indication that it is MK-7 and not MK-4.
    In Japan they refuse to use MK-7 as it is toxic at relatively low doses. In fact you will see it is sold in mcg, when MK-4 is sold in mg.
    You can get a big amount of MK-7 in good cheese and in natto.

    It should NOT be taken at the same time as Vit C or Vit E.
    You MUST eat at least 30 g of fat (if possible animal) at the same time otherwise it is not absorbed.
    To ensure full effect you need extra vit D (but if possible from sun exposure even the Russian way if weather is too cold).
    Those on blood thinning drugs should speak to their doctor. It is possible to wean off the blood thinners with vit K, since this vitamin regulates platelets etc, if your blood is too thick it will normalize and if the reverse is true it will normalize too. This is not only the K for clotting, it works the other way too.

    After more than 2 years on it I noticed it increases the need for vit A (this is confirmed by research somewhere but can't find it sorry). But this vit A has to be taken only from birds liver (once a week at least).
    It also increases the need for vit B2.
    This I have found out not only on myself but also on my sister who had osteoporosis and was on Fosamax and still deteriorating steadily. One year after starting MK-4 at the same dosage as myself and dropping Fosamax the progression had stopped. Two years after (last week !!! Yeah!!!!) no more osteoporosis, just some osteopenia in the hip only. The doctor said : keep doing what you are doing.

    I also had osteoporosis but never tested for it. Lost faith in the hospital you could say. I noticed that my tendons got supple, so I suppose the Glakay put the calcium in the bones where it should be and took it out of the muscles. Same for my jaw which kind of grew wider. I could feel the reconstruction going on as a kind of tickle. No more bleeding gums ever.

    Good luck!

    Asklipia
    merylg likes this.
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    This should read : "Vitamin K2 has a role...."
    There are at least 14 types of K2, MK-1, MK-2, MK-3 etc.... Some of them not OK to take!!!
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Sorry I never tried it.
    However if it is in a powdered form inside a capsule, I recommend NOT taking the capsule.

    NOTE : MK-4 is very easily destroyed by light (but not by heat), so just swallow it quickly from the capsule itself. It has no taste.
  14. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Aslipia,
    in what way is it toxic? They eat a lot of natto In Japan, which they say it's good for you...
    If caps are not the ideal, what form do you think it's best?
  15. Ema

    Ema Senior Member

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    Have you found an online pharmacy to order it from then? I would love to try this on my mother!
  16. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    xrunner

    MK-7 is toxic in high doses because it overburdens the liver that has to transform it into MK-4. You only get mcg from natto, and yes that is good for you.

    Caps are the only form to take MK-4, it is only the Vitamin Research Products caps which I found were not OK. The contents were OK, though the Eisai was more effective.
    This caps problem is not only for MK-4, but it is the same for all supplements. So if trying another brand, since you cannot test the caps themselves, better avoid them altogether by taking the contents only. I am not ready to test all brands since I am very satisfied with the one I selected. Sorry! :-(
    MK-4 neutralizes the MSG and hydrolized fats, so if the capsule contains any of that, you are actually neutralizing your MK-4. Which is then less effective, and I would say from experience probably not effective at all. Worse, you are burdening your body more by taking extra stuff.

    Ema
    Hemaxshop. They are based in Thailand hence bad English but they are very reliable I found.

    EDIT : I realized I have made a mistake. The Menatetrenone I was taking which was OK except for the capsule was not Vitamin Research Products (which I have never tried), but Relentless Improvement.http://supplements.relentlessimprovement.com/vitamin-k2-menatetrenone-p285.aspx
  17. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Asklipia
    Well, I have been taking nattokinase (essential to my recovery) which has 34mcg of mk7 in it. There are other forms of nattokinase without K2 or lower amounts in it but they're not nearly as effective as this particular brand I'm taking
    So I need to think about this.

    I saw a K2/MK4 in drops. I'd like your thoughts on this (I avoid any supps with stereate in it) http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Vitamin-K2-1-fl-oz-30-ml/21592
  18. Gavman

    Gavman Senior Member

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    Hmmm increases the need of vitamin a. Interesting, as some of my problems started with large doses of vitamin A, it might be useful to utilise it out of the liver.

    No chance you have been on roaccutane is there, Asklipia?
  19. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @ xrunner
    Thorne drops : it lists as ingredients : Medium Chain Triglyceride Oil, Mixed Tocopherols
    Tocopherols I thought relate to vitamin E, which is a no-no at the same time as Menatetrenone, I forget why. Should not be taken at the same time. Mixed : which ones?
    As to the Medium Chain Triglyceride Oil, it would be nice to know what it is. Why so secret? Let's hope it is not hydrolyzed, which I think it must be, because the liquid in the bottle is open to be oxydized, not the case in the Glakay capsule which is hermetical. If is is hydrolyzed, then you have the same problem as in the Vitamin Research Products caps, only worse because in the VRP product you can discard the capsule.

    There is a big problem of assimilation with MK-4 and there have been several studies in Japan to find a delivery system. Eisai has invented one, which I think is even used in other products. Their capsule is very very small and has some kind of oil inside. When I test it I don't find any excitotoxicity threat.
    US autism groups like the Thorne product, so it may be effective in a way. They also try anything on those kids who cannot refuse treatment. I don't know.

    @ Gavman
    Never taken roaccutane Gavman.
  20. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Thanks Asklipia, that's helpful.

    Something I forgot to ask, have you seen any effect on teeth?

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