Vit. D causing allergies to flareup

[cristi_b]

normally I'm not sure if I have a histamine problem based on the fact that I can usually eat high histamine foods without issues.

Histamine issues from food are not always apparent, I have lived for all my life(I am 40 now) and did not realize that I have a genetic DAO deficiency until I took a genetic test. This happens because you don't get symptoms immediately after eating(like in a peanut allergy), histamine usually builds up as the DAO enzyme gets overwhelmed and you won't be able to match symptoms to what you ate past few days. Furthermore histamine could be coming from mast cell activation which is even harder to predict, mast cells can be anywhere and get activated by things like LPS in the gut.

Does vitamin A increase the histamine load?

I was thinking at 2 possibilities when I said that:
- allergens in the supplement itself(if it was a cheap one), that would cause histamine to be released directly
- vitamin A helps the immune system: it enhances the antibody response and supports the growth and activation of T and B cells; If you have an infection in the body that creates LPS(this was suggested by your reaction to vitamin D) you will get more LPS from further activation of the immune system, and said LPS will trigger mast cells to release more histamine.

I am very curios to see what reaction you have(if it's any of the above two), so please share.

Since even later 10,000 iu of D3 at a time wasn't able to produce anything like the first dose of 5000 iu

I have a few thoughts on that:
1) maybe it's not the same supplement; might be a good idea to try again the same supplement that caused it
2) for whatever reason you don't have as much histamine in your system as you did when you initially tryed it
3) MAO and HNMT enzymes work better now and so eliminate excess histamine faster from your brain
4) the inital dose ramped up the immune system and killed most of the LPS-producing infection, since there isn't that much bacteria now you won't get the same response

Can't find anything on that myself. I've been thinking about keeping DAO on hand for emergency immune implosion situations, which one do you recommend?

DAO enzyme supplements do not work for emergency, it is the same as for Histamine you get from food, it builds up and goes down over several days. DAO enzyme supplements are basically taken during a meal to degrade the histamine you get from that meal, so the body doesn't get additional histamine from what you eat. If you do that for all meals of the day, for several days, the body doesn't get any histamine from food and has time to process histamine that is already in the system. Only then will histamine go down. So as you can tell, this doesn't help in the short term, but only after several days. For short term emergency situations, you can take anti-histamine medication or Quercetin.

 

[Dysfunkion]

Histamine issues from food are not always apparent, I have lived for all my life(I am 40 now) and did not realize that I have a genetic DAO deficiency until I took a genetic test. This happens because you don't get symptoms immediately after eating(like in a peanut allergy), histamine usually builds up as the DAO enzyme gets overwhelmed and you won't be able to match symptoms to what you ate past few days. Furthermore histamine could be coming from mast cell activation which is even harder to predict, mast cells can be anywhere and get activated by things like LPS in the gut.


I was thinking at 2 possibilities when I said that:
- allergens in the supplement itself(if it was a cheap one), that would cause histamine to be released directly
- vitamin A helps the immune system: it enhances the antibody response and supports the growth and activation of T and B cells; If you have an infection in the body that creates LPS(this was suggested by your reaction to vitamin D) you will get more LPS from further activation of the immune system, and said LPS will trigger mast cells to release more histamine.

I am very curios to see what reaction you have(if it's any of the above two), so please share.


I have a few thoughts on that:
1) maybe it's not the same supplement; might be a good idea to try again the same supplement that caused it
2) for whatever reason you don't have as much histamine in your system as you did when you initially tryed it
3) MAO and HNMT enzymes work better now and so eliminate excess histamine faster from your brain
4) the inital dose ramped up the immune system and killed most of the LPS-producing infection, since there isn't that much bacteria now you won't get the same response


DAO enzyme supplements do not work for emergency, it is the same as for Histamine you get from food, it builds up and goes down over several days. DAO enzyme supplements are basically taken during a meal to degrade the histamine you get from that meal, so the body doesn't get additional histamine from what you eat. If you do that for all meals of the day, for several days, the body doesn't get any histamine from food and has time to process histamine that is already in the system. Only then will histamine go down. So as you can tell, this doesn't help in the short term, but only after several days. For short term emergency situations, you can take anti-histamine medication or Quercetin.

Never thought about histamine building up so high that I'm not getting symptoms upon eating more of it, there's also the possibility that all that histamine is stuck in certain areas of body more so than others in areas where I don't for example feel like my face or any other area is on fire. I know for a fact when I'm having a reaction to something I can get intense brain fog and other neurological issues even without the extreme histamine feeling in my face where before my fatigue got even worse would get the most symptoms with burning/tingling skin. I'll always feel something there but the skin sensation feelings aren't as intense anymore which is probably a byproduct of my body failing to have enough power to even amp the nervous system up enough to do that. From my last experience with the thiamine I can see now I certainly can have a signalling overload going on in my nervous system without actually engaging the sympathetic nervous system much which actually appears to be a big part of my issue. My body appears to have the gears jammed in the opposite direction despite even getting stimulation. I also know from my experiences with tyrosine and way back when I upped how much coffee I was drinking a day that rises in dopamine or serotonin are not able to break the stimulation barrier that the initial 5000 iu lichen D3 dose was able to and experiencing an intense fight or flight reaction also isn't able to do so either so it seems to be occurring by some other mechanism that this energy is being inhibited by.

The d3 supplement that did it was the vegan 5000 iu D3 a dose from Country Life, it was the same one I took a 10,000 iu dose from and wasn't able to repeat the initial reaction to the first 5000 iu dose. The other additives in it I'm able to consume and not have a reaction to so if it was something it was made with the additive isn't listed. Smaller doses I tried in between that came from drops of vegan D3 made with only MCT oil but after the initial reaction everything from this form would produce the same results. No stimulation, some of the positives, and a lot more side effects. The only form of D3 that was able to do this was the vegan lichen derived form, the sheep wool form would just make me more tired, same goes for the D2 form. It also could be that my immune system after it was ramped up like that was able to fight back an infection it was too weak to do so against before. Hoping the vitamin A will give me more direction on where to push here, since it's such a low amount right under the daily value I may not even have much of a response at all who knows. I'll give it a go on Thursday when I have a couple days off should anything go wrong which I'm not really expecting but who knows.

Would DAO have a chance of causing a start up reaction from a large amount of histamine backup being processed all at once? Reviews on it appear to be all over the place on DAO supplements. I haven't done any other research into it so I'm not sure if it can do other things in the body besides that.

 

[cristi_b]

Would DAO have a chance of causing a start up reaction from a large amount of histamine backup being processed all at once?

From the information I found, a large amount of histamine usually overwhelms the DAO enzyme causing it to function more poorly than your usual rate. In order for DAO enzyme activity to recover you have to lower the load. I think this is what I did when I took DAOSiN and, in a matter of days, I've observed complete disappearance of cardiac arrhythmia (they have not returned by the way)
Just as a sidenote: lots of people experience heart palpitations / extra systoles / arrhythmias and the funny thing is, cardiologists sometimes suggest surgeries to "correct" the issue! I managed to solve mine with DAOSiN!

Reviews on it appear to be all over the place on DAO supplements. I haven't done any other research into it so I'm not sure if it can do other things in the body besides that.

I know that DAOFood is the most powerfull DAO supplement, followed by DAOSiN. You can find information in this study.
By the way: DAOFood Plus is just DAOFood with some Quercetin in it.

Hoping the vitamin A will give me more direction on where to push here, since it's such a low amount right under the daily value I may not even have much of a response at all who knows. I'll give it a go on Thursday when I have a couple days off should anything go wrong which I'm not really expecting but who knows.

I just want to point out that if it really was an infection that caused the initial sympathetic reaction from vitamin D, you should not want it again. Inundating your system with high amounts of Histamine from LPS is not a healthy choice. This is what I did and I got cognitive problems from it. I wish I knew at that moment to take some supplements for protection of neurons from LPS.
If you want to go that route, to generate Histamine from LPS, I can tell you that for me the HN019 probiotic produced a much stronger reaction than simple vitamin D. But I strongly advise anyone who tryes to kill bacteria in the gut to protect their neurons: solve leaky gut first and take supplements that protect against LPS.

 

[linusbert]

know I read somewhere that some diabetes medication affect DAO enzyme, but I don't think it was pioglitazone. Are there any changes to your allergies when you get weaker legs? If your allergies remain the same, it could also be a neurologic issue. Perplexity AI says "the enzymes involved in vitamin D metabolism are distinct from those involved in the metabolism of pioglitazone, which is primarily metabolized by CYP2C8 and CYP3A4", so there doesn't seem to be a direct link between vitamin D and pioglitazone.

i am not sure if there is a relation between legs and my allergies. but they definitely didnt get better when i had the mega dosing of vitamin D the last year.
but i get same results with worse legs when overdoing it like typing a lot or playing too much videogames. it seams to draw from the legs first and i notice only a few hours or day later.

i found a different conclussion with chatgpt, there is indeed a overlap in enzymes. leading to pioglitazon being metabolized faster. dont know how big that effect is though.

 

[cristi_b]

i found a different conclussion with chatgpt, there is indeed a overlap in enzymes. leading to pioglitazon being metabolized faster. dont know how big that effect is though.

I have asked perplexity again and now it spit out this study:
Interplay between Vitamin D and the Drug Metabolizing Enzyme CYP3A4

(I typically use AI chatbots so I don't have to search for and read so many research papers, but it seems that sometimes these AIs make mistakes)

but i get same results with worse legs when overdoing it like typing a lot or playing too much videogames. it seams to draw from the legs first and i notice only a few hours or day later.

Don't want to seem pushy, but it might be worth to checkout the neurological / vagus nerve hypothesis also. I have found some research papers stating that pioglitazone affects both the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. Both are part of the A.N.S.(Autonomic Nervous System) and, as the name implies, function independently of conscious control. Just a few links I found with perplexity about this subject:

1) Metformin and pioglitazone inhibited vagus nerve mediated airway hyperreactivity in diet-induced obese rats

Conclusions: Hypoglycemic drugs (metformin and pioglitazone) reduce parasympathetic nerve mediated airway hyperreactivity in obese rats, without changing M3 muscarinic receptor function or reducing body weight or fat.

2) Effect of pioglitazone on muscle sympathetic nerve activity in type 2 diabetes mellitus with alpha-glucosidase inhibitor

pioglitazone significantly decreased muscle sympathetic nerve activity(MSNA) in type 2 diabetes mellitus (DM) patients compared with alpha-GI (21.7±5.2 vs. 32.0±6.8 burst/min, p<0.01)

Full disclosure: I am a believer in the Polyvagal Theory by Dr. S. Porges, so I tend to see lots of correlations to the A.N.S. in everyday life When I read stuff like "overdoing it like typing a lot or playing too much videogames" some of the concepts from that theory come to mind.

 

[cristi_b]

Oh.. just remembered some supplements that might be helpful:

1) Taurine: I found it very effective at solving trembling in hands, I actually give it to my father as he has diabetes. He seemed also to be more stable on his feet(he has an A.D. diagnosis also). Taurine has been proven to have several beneficial effects on neurons, you can get information on that with AI chatbots. You may also find that Taurine improves blood sugar levels, that is a bonus!

2) HMB = Hydroxy Methyl Butyrate: I've tried this supplement and found it to enhance the ventral vagal state(this is the ideal state from the Polyvagal Theory). Best I can describe the effect is: reduced stress, higher heart rate variability. Since pioglitazone is known to screw around with the Autonomous Nervous System(see research papers above), I would recommend you to try HMB to see if it returns you to the ideal state. This supplement is proven to bind to the PPAR-alpha receptor, see here.

 

[linusbert]

HMB i tried, did nothing.

Taurine last time i tried did worsen cramping, but was years ago , might try again. taurine works in calcium metabolism too.

Full disclosure: I am a believer in the Polyvagal Theory by Dr. S. Porges, so I tend to see lots of correlations to the A.N.S. in everyday life When I read stuff like "overdoing it like typing a lot or playing too much videogames" some of the concepts from that theory come to mind.

its not video games. its general increased arm activity, also from writing emails or coding. i suspect it drawing energy from legs. aka my legs powering my arms. thus burning my muscles... which is not optimal

I have asked perplexity again and now it spit out this study:
Interplay between Vitamin D and the Drug Metabolizing Enzyme CYP3A4

ok, read it, but i do not understand the impliciations for me. but there is definitely going something on on that enzyme between D and pioglitazone for sure.
.

checkout the neurological / vagus nerve hypothesis also

whats that.

 

[LINE]

@cristi_b I read your post - any testing on gut bugs?

 

[cristi_b]

whats that.

Polyvagal theory is maybe a too complex subject to be explained in a few words, perhaps I should not even try because I might say something inexact and you would easily dismiss the concepts. You can read about it if you'd like or ask a chatbot to summarize the theory. For me taking vitamin D also brought on some symptoms of a dorsal vagal state(in addition to, or perhaps because of, the histamine overload symptoms): I would get tired, my legs would feel heavy, I would feel the need to sleep and I would actually oversleep during the night. Basically the A.N.S. would not allow the C.N.S. to be up and about. As mentioned previously, two times that I stubbornly took vitamin D I almost fainted. What you were describing as "weak legs" made me think of the same state I got from vitamin D: the start of dorsal vagal shutdown(fainting). I also know an other person who experiences something similar, but has a different trigger: his legs are shaking so much he cannot walk properly and at some point he just falls off his feet(though he remains conscious, so not a full faint). It would be interesting to see what your heart rate is during the "weak legs" episodes, is it lower/higher than usual and does it have variability on breathing in and breathing out. That would be an indication of the vagal state you have at that moment. For example I have an oxymeter on my desk and I use it to check if I'm in the "ideal" state from time to time. Also I use simple exercises that can bring the A.N.S. in the "ideal" state: something as simple as diaphragmatic breathing. This brings me to one of the pitfalls of "typing", "playing videogames", "writing email", "coding", you sit down at a desk or on the couch and breathe just be the top of the lungs and so go out of the "ideal"(stress free) state. Anyway... I may be way off

HMB i tried, did nothing.

I meant to try HMB now(after pioglitazone), but only small quantities like 400mg as to not have a direct impact on the muscle, just for the effects on the nervous system. It would be interesting to see if it will increase your heart rate variability. As mentioned previously, my guess is you are not in the "ideal" state.

I read your post - any testing on gut bugs?

I was tested for the usual culprits(E Coli, Campylobacter and stuff), I also payed for some advanced testing of parasites by PCR method(Giardia lamblia, Entamoeba histolytica, Cryptosporidium spp., Blastocystis hominis, Dientamoeba fragilis, Cyclospora cayetanensis, Strongyloides spp., Necator americanus, Ascaris spp., Trichuris trichura, Enterobius vermicularis, Taenia spp., Ancylostoma spp., Hymenolepsis spp., Enterocytozoon spp/Encephalitozoon spp.) and ALL were negative. These "positive" / "negative" tests don't seem that useful to me.

When I did the Nebula genomics test(last year, when I felt horrible), they also did an oral microbiome test, which is much more detailed and showed some modifications from normal:
Prevotella: 27.33% abundance, 95% percentile(95% of people they tested have a lower value)
Fusobacterium: 16.72% abundance, 95% percentile
Porphyromonas: 8.52% abundance, 95% percentile
Streptococcus: 6.03% abundance, 5% percentile
Veillonella: 6.02% abundance, 60% percentile
Tannerella: 4.26% abundance, 95% percentile
Campylobacter: 3.73% abundance, 95th percentile
Filifactor: 1.38% abundance, 95th percentile
Selenomonas: 0.65% abundance, 95th percentile

They tell me some of these values are linked by studies to I.B.D.

I know I should get some microbiome stool test, but have not decided yet which one and they also seem expensive in my country(they have to be sent abroad in US, Germany and some other country, I don't remember which one).

 

[Dysfunkion]

Polyvagal theory is maybe a too complex subject to be explained in a few words, perhaps I should not even try because I might say something inexact and you would easily dismiss the concepts. You can read about it if you'd like or ask a chatbot to summarize the theory. For me taking vitamin D also brought on some symptoms of a dorsal vagal state(in addition to, or perhaps because of, the histamine overload symptoms): I would get tired, my legs would feel heavy, I would feel the need to sleep and I would actually oversleep during the night. Basically the A.N.S. would not allow the C.N.S. to be up and about. As mentioned previously, two times that I stubbornly took vitamin D I almost fainted. What you were describing as "weak legs" made me think of the same state I got from vitamin D: the start of dorsal vagal shutdown(fainting). I also know an other person who experiences something similar, but has a different trigger: his legs are shaking so much he cannot walk properly and at some point he just falls off his feet(though he remains conscious, so not a full faint). It would be interesting to see what your heart rate is during the "weak legs" episodes, is it lower/higher than usual and does it have variability on breathing in and breathing out. That would be an indication of the vagal state you have at that moment. For example I have an oxymeter on my desk and I use it to check if I'm in the "ideal" state from time to time. Also I use simple exercises that can bring the A.N.S. in the "ideal" state: something as simple as diaphragmatic breathing. This brings me to one of the pitfalls of "typing", "playing videogames", "writing email", "coding", you sit down at a desk or on the couch and breathe just be the top of the lungs and so go out of the "ideal"(stress free) state. Anyway... I may be way off

When I push the D I also get the weak legs and at first I got the shaky legs with a lot of stimulation and then it dropped into weak everything and lots of aching. I got there in a different way with the weak everything, stone legs from thiamine too (which thankfully resolved, just kinda brain fatigue-y and a bit heavy today). I'm not sure what it was from as when it got to the point where it was making me very weak I didn't have any burning anywhere if it was a histamine driven immune response from an overload. Who knows it may have a paradox reaction when levels hit a certain point, don't know what entirely went on under the hood.

I'm not sure if they work at all but I was thinking about seeing if I respond this way to D3 patches on the skin, I have a feeling all of these weird reactions with me are gut based before the supplement even really hits where it's supposed to as my reactions begin within minutes of swallowing and it may be different if I bypass the gut. I haven't gotten any microbiome tests myself but I just know its a mess in there and I don't have the money for that right now anyways.

 

[linusbert]

When I push the D I also get the weak legs and at first I got the shaky legs with a lot of stimulation and then it dropped into weak everything and lots of aching. I got there in a different way with the weak everything, stone legs from thiamine too (which thankfully resolved, just kinda brain fatigue-y and a bit heavy today).

what i know is that vitamin D requires lots of potassium. people only talk about magnesium. thats right. but it also draws on potassium, and it also increases on phosphat absorption.
so your weak legs could be a result of that.

mine are a bit different, when i get it, it barely gets better if at all.

 

[Dysfunkion]

what i know is that vitamin D requires lots of potassium. people only talk about magnesium. thats right. but it also draws on potassium, and it also increases on phosphat absorption.
so your weak legs could be a result of that.

mine are a bit different, when i get it, it barely gets better if at all.

Taking magnesium slightly helped at any dose but not much and if I go over 100 mg in other ways I get more tired with citrate giving me more of a boost (though I found taking citrate more than a day in a row really starts to mess up my digestive system more). I haven't found a potassium supplement I could tolerate and the daily value is a huge amount you'll never get from supplements unless something is different about supplementing it than how your body deals with it consumed in food. I get enough food every week but potassium probably isn't optimal though I also know I don't absorb things well from food so what I consume in most food probably isn't going anywhere unless I consume very large amounts of it. I like the citrate form of magnesium got the most benefit out of the potassium citrate but my digestive system also threw a fit when I consumed any. If it didn't I would be taking it right now.

 

[linusbert]

Taking magnesium slightly helped at any dose but not much and if I go over 100 mg in other ways I get more tired with citrate giving me more of a boost (though I found taking citrate more than a day in a row really starts to mess up my digestive system more). I haven't found a potassium supplement I could tolerate and the daily value is a huge amount you'll never get from supplements unless something is different about supplementing it than how your body deals with it consumed in food. I get enough food every week but potassium probably isn't optimal though I also know I don't absorb things well from food so what I consume in most food probably isn't going anywhere unless I consume very large amounts of it. I like the citrate form of magnesium got the most benefit out of the potassium citrate but my digestive system also threw a fit when I consumed any. If it didn't I would be taking it right now.

- potatoes is rich source, also comes with good amounts of magnesium and somewhat phosphat. eat 500-1000g a day and your potassium needs are set. maybe add a little sodium on top.

- coconut water though not everyone tolerates it, they often come loaded with artificial garbage so if you try get a natural which doesnt have any. or buy a coconut, open yourself and drink that water. if it smells and tastes bad dont drink.