Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[boohealth]

Hi. The late Rich Van Konynenburg developed a simplified methylation protocol based on Amy Yasko's more detailed work, that included hydroxy B12. He felt it was better tolerated, than giving the active forms, which often led to severe symptoms in CFSers.

I wanted to order the hydroxy Vitamin b12 oil, to try it. I have tried hydroxy B12 in a liquid form but I had the feeling it was degraded (it's delicate) and I felt nothing. Whereas a smidge of Ben Lynch's methylB and methyfolate, a mere smidge, sent me into a 24 hour crying jag some years ago. I don't care what the tests say, if I feel horrible, I'm not taking it (my "tests" also say I shouldn't do well with IV glutathione, and it's wonderful for me). As a doctor of mine once said, "When is detox tox?" In other words, people will often say, if you feel horrible taking something, it's just detox. I don't buy that, maybe occasionally, but maybe the "thing" is just not good for you.

Yesterday when I placed that order, Greg said some (to me) slightly odd things. He said that most people who react to the methyls are low in functional B2. Therefore they tolerate hydroxy because they're not converting it anyway. He also warned me that I'd need adequate selenium, iodine, b2, etcetera. I wrote back at first indicating my diet is sufficient (I also looked it up later, but I do eat eggs, dairy, seafood, almonds, roquefort, feta, like ALL the time!, all great sources of b2, use kelp [iodine], make green smoothies once or twice a week). He responded that kelp was not a big B2 source (he did not understand I was mentioning using kelp, to show I get iodine). He warned me against kale in my green smoothies as they have a "cyanide moiety". Well, I can't digest raw kale anyway, and I don't much like kale.

I always thought Rich's theories made eminent good sense. They don't jive with Greg's. Greg said he agreed with my theory that giving your body building blocks in food was the best approach, but then he said the building blocks for b12 are the active forms. I'm a little skeptical of the things Greg is saying, and I thought his warnings were a little extreme. I'm sure putting kale in a smoothie is fine, as long as you aren't downing lots of it daily. IMHO variation is the key to good micronutrient nutrition anyway.

I like the idea of oils because I don't like fillers in supplements and don't do well with them.

@garyfritz and others who take these oils, do you have any thoughts, and are you familiar with the simplified methylation protocol? Thx.

 

[Lynn_M]

I have corresponded with Greg a number of times over the last 3 years and have great respect for his knowledge. When his positions are counter to what is accepted in this community, he has scientific justification. As a PhD biochemist, I imagine his knowledge base in biochemistry exceeds even that of Rich Van Konynenburg, who was, after all, an engineer by profession and who was probably self-taught in biochemistry. As for Amy Yasko’s “more detailed work”, a number of people on this forum, including Valentjin, do not have respect for Amy Yasko’s work. Rich was a humanitarian who gave freely of himself. From what he’s written, it appears Greg has a substantial correspondence with people seeking help, and his motivation is also helping humanity overcome diseases linked to B12 deficits. He says any money he clears off the sale of B12oils mostly goes to supporting his B12 research.

For an understanding of Greg’s comment about raw kale having a “cyanide moiety”, read http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/bearers-of-the-cross-crucifers-in-the-context-of-traditional-diets-and-modern-science/, Crucifers do contain toxic substances. Maybe Greg thought you were using kale in your green smoothies, since kale is a popular green these days.

If you study biochemical pathways, FAD and FMN are involved in the essence of methylation processes. Vitamin B2 forms the core of each of those substances. I had been taking 50 mg. Vitamin B2 daily in a methylation supplement for several years, as well as eating good amounts of green leafy vegetables, yet multiple OAT tests showed I was still low in Vitamin B2. Maybe there is something tricky about getting enough Vitamin B2 – I haven’t figured it out yet. There is a long Vitamin B2 thread on this forum. Last week I started using Greg’s B Group pump, hoping the transdermal mode and the ability of the B Vitamins to slowly drip, drip in when they are metabolized via transdermal application, will finally get some Vitamin B2 in to my metabolism.

I have been using Greg’s adeno/methyl B12 pumps for almost 3 years, and the MMA on my OAT test has dropped quite a bit since I first started using it. I started out with B12 registering as my only deficiency on a Spectracell Micronutrient test. MY MMA is now in the very low end of the reference range, which, if you don't know about MMA, is very good..

I am familiar with the simplified methylation protocol. You will find discussion in the archives where Freddd took great issue with the idea that hydroxycobalamin would be helpful, and Rich did eventually concede that some people need methylcobalamin. Anyone with the cobalamin X (A, B, C, D, whatever) diseases probably needs adenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin, not hydroxyB12.

As for your reaction to Ben Lynch’s methylB and methylfolate, if you meant to say methyl B12, I would take methylB12 separately from methylfolate before you conclude that you have issues with methylB12. Also, in the transdermal mode, the Vitamin B12 gets absorbed into subcutaneous fat and slowly is released into circulation. The body doesn’t get hit all at once. It’s like the B12 being delivered very frequently by taxi, instead of a tanker dropping off a big load once a week. So even if you do react to oral or sublingual forms of methylB12, taking it transdermally is a much gentler way of getting it into your body.

 

[PeterPositive]

Also, in the transdermal mode, the Vitamin B12 gets absorbed into subcutaneous fat and slowly is released into circulation. The body doesn’t get hit all at once. It’s like the B12 being delivered very frequently by taxi, instead of a tanker dropping off a big load once a week. So even if you do react to oral or sublingual forms of methylB12, taking it transdermally is a much gentler way of getting it into your body.

Interesting metaphor.
In my experience rubbing a single dose of meytl-B12 oil did hit me with a strong effect. Much like that of taking 10 or so mgs of methylcobaline in sublingual form, at once.

I wasn't expecting such an effect from a (relatively) low dose.

Unfortunately I have discontinued the use of B12 oils as they incur in insane custom taxes over here.

 

[GhostGum]

@Lynn_M Sorry to get a little off topic here but I am just wondering relating to the raw greens whether the difference between baby and mature leaves has been noted? From a few years of growing kale, chard and spinach it is apparent that once leaves start to get a little older they become far less tolerable to gut flora, for me even causing a quite unpleasant sore throat. I always thought this has to do with oxalate but apparently kale is low in it and spinach is high, and spinach tends to be much more tolerable.

@boohealth I corresponded with Greg for sometime as well and highly respect his opinion but I believe with methylation there is simply not a cut and dry answer for everyone, the base might be solid but there is going to be variance between individuals and this is blatant by different peoples responses to dose and supplement. Like Lynn though I have been taking B2 50mg daily, b complex every couple of days and if I feel I have overdone things (i am sensitive to methyl donors) extra b3 nicotinamide.

I would not be put off by your negative experience neither, I had quite strong psychiatric type symptoms arise when I first started it I had not experienced in over 10 years. Methylation is by and far a worth while path to go down and try to work out, you will just need some patience and tinkering.

 

[Lynn_M]

GhostGum,
I don't think I've ever read of anyone commenting on the differences between baby and mature leaves of raw greens.

PeterPositive,
Is it possible you were reacting to the adenosylcobalamin in the B12oil? Except for the very first time I took adenoB12, I've never felt a reaction, other than a change in lab values, to any kind of B12 product, cyanoB12 injection, mB12 sublingual, adenoB12 oral, or adeno/methyl B12oils. That first time taking adeno B12, I could feel my eyelids finally open up fully from their usual droopy state. It was marvelous.

 

[boohealth]

Thanks, all. I was hoping someone would address the actual biochemical differences in their viewpoints, rather than their degrees or reputations or a personal opinion of Greg, Yasko or Rich.

I am still considering the hydroxy. I'm totally not interested in pushing more active forms on myself. I try hard with a nutrient dense diet, though!

 

[alicec]

I'm totally not interested in pushing more active forms on myself.

If you have already made up your mind, why are you asking us to use our limited energy giving you information?

I read your post yesterday but didn't have time to reply. Now I wouldn't bother.

 

[boohealth]

If you have already made up your mind, why are you asking us to use our limited energy giving you information?

I read your post yesterday but didn't have time to reply. Now I wouldn't bother.

@alicec people here run the gamut, @garyfritz appears to be active and recovered on the B's, and others are moderately ill and still others bedridden. It's up to them to decide what to read and answer. I'm not going to worry about what questions I ask because it might use up somebody's limited energy.

My point was, I was interested in hydroxyb12 and I'm not convinced about Greg's reservations. I recall very well when people took the active forms and got very sick. Even from tiny amounts. Greg is saying that's a b2 deficiency. Either if the active forms make you sick, or if you don't convert hydoxy. At least, that's what I *think* he said. It throws everything Rich said and thought after years of research, out the window.

I wanted to see if anybody could address that, but nobody has, but that's okay. No problem.

 

[Johnmac]

I've tried the Rich protocol (2011) & more recently the Freddd Protocol - both of which were extremely beneficial. Greg's comments dovetail with my experience so far.

Greg said I wouldn't need all that folate, or any carnitine, if I added enough B2 to my Methyl B12. ("CFS is not a B12 problem - it's a B12 and B2 problem.")

So 7 days ago I upped the B2, dropped the folate from 5mg/day to less than 1, ditched the carnitine, & began the oils. (Me/ado.) Day 7 & my energy & cognition are gradually improving. I've had no undue folate or potassium demand (both have dropped), & no PFD.

So far so good.

 

[boohealth]

I've tried the Rich protocol (2011) & more recently the Freddd Protocol - both of which were extremely beneficial. Greg's comments dovetail with my experience so far.

Greg said I wouldn't need all that folate, or any carnitine, if I added enough B2 to my Methyl B12. ("CFS is not a B12 problem - it's a B12 and B2 problem.")

So 7 days ago I upped the B2, dropped the folate from 5mg/day to less than 1, ditched the carnitine, & began the oils. (Me/ado.) Day 7 & my energy & cognition are gradually improving. I've had no undue folate or potassium demand (both have dropped), & no PFD.

So far so good.

Thanks @John Mac. That's really interesting. If I do a search for your name will I see the specifics of how the other protocols helped (don't want to ask you to recap if it's tedious). Is this one helping even more?

I once met a guy at my holistic doc's office who got huge amounts of b2 intravenously every 6 weeks. His doc had figured out that he could avoid the disfiguring eczema his dad had if he took the b2. It worked, too. Itried some b2 in my IV once and I didn't like it. I stopped the IV early. Of course one trial doesn't mean much.

I will do some more research on all this. It would seem astounding and confounding if b2 were the answer to all those bad reactions cfs'ers had to the active B's when Rich first proposed the protocol. And that they weren't converting hydroxy, either, since many have done well on hydroxy.

 

[boohealth]

PS @John Mac was is PFD?

 

[Johnmac]

Yep, it would be astounding - let's see. Greg's been working with B12 for 25 years, so I take his views seriously.

PFD = Paradoxical Folate Deficiency (a Fred term for folate starting you healing, which drives the need for more folate).

I began 4 years ago with the Simplified Methylation Protocol, which helped in certain ways. The first big 'wholesale' change - everything improved at once - was when I got the Freddd Protocol right. That took some time, as carnitine gave me horrendous crashes, then when I'd finally figured that out (actually Fred did), I found that all my symptoms would improve beautifully... Then the improvements would fade away.

So I learned to ramp up. Which sorted that problem, tho was costing me an arm & a leg - & involved far too many pills for my liking.

When Greg proposed a much simpler solution, I was most willing to try it. It took a bit of doing, psychologically, to ditch carnitine & most of my m-folate...and to trust that oil on my skin was going to work as well as pills in my mouth. And to increase B2 to 50-60 mg/day.

But I did, and it:

(i) pulled me out of a very bad crash;
(ii) did not result in ghastly effects such as PFD, or ballooning folate demand.

Getting me above a crash baseline is good, but the real test will be whether it takes me above where the FP took me. That's a work in progress.

But two conclusions I can make already:

(i) the Greg/oils approach is easier - much;
(ii) it is also nett cheaper (despite the oils being $40/bottle), for reasons I can explain if anyone's interested.

Thanks @John Mac. That's really interesting. If I do a search for your name will I see the specifics of how the other protocols helped (don't want to ask you to recap if it's tedious). Is this one helping even more?

I once met a guy at my holistic doc's office who got huge amounts of b2 intravenously every 6 weeks. His doc had figured out that he could avoid the disfiguring eczema his dad had if he took the b2. It worked, too. Itried some b2 in my IV once and I didn't like it. I stopped the IV early. Of course one trial doesn't mean much.

I will do some more research on all this. It would seem astounding and confounding if b2 were the answer to all those bad reactions cfs'ers had to the active B's when Rich first proposed the protocol. And that they weren't converting hydroxy, either, since many have done well on hydroxy.

 

[Johnmac]

Interesting metaphor.
In my experience rubbing a single dose of meytl-B12 oil did hit me with a strong effect. Much like that of taking 10 or so mgs of methylcobaline in sublingual form, at once.

I wasn't expecting such an effect from a (relatively) low dose.

Same here. It fed in slowly, but when it hit it was pretty strong (in a nice way). It also lasted a long time. For me it peaks at about 8 hours, & lasts for at least 36. In the first few days that involved some sleeplessness, but that settles down. Quite a contrast to past protocols, in which you do an awful lot of pill-munching for a lesser effect.

 

[boohealth]

@John Mac please keep me posted--will you tag me on any updates (I don't always come here). Why isn't Greg making a B2 oil, then?

And sure, please explain why it's cheaper.

Also, does Greg relate any of this to chronic infection?

 

[Johnmac]

@John Mac please keep me posted--will you tag me on any updates (I don't always come here). Why isn't Greg making a B2 oil, then?

And sure, please explain why it's cheaper.

Also, does Greg relate any of this to chronic infection?

Haven't heard him mention chronic infection, but I bet he'd have something to say about it if you asked.

I've wondered about the B2 oil myself, & will ask him. He does make a multi B oil with B2 in it: check his website. Maybe there's enough B2 in that.

The oils (assuming they work, which I haven't confirmed yet) are a cheaper protocol than most, IMO, because:

(i) One dose a day (costs 66c) instead of 3.
(ii) You don't need much or any supplementary folate. (Solgar methylfolate is expensive & on the FP you generally need a lot of it.)
(iii) You don't need carnitine, as with B12 & B2 working together you're making your own.
(iv) Because applying an oil once a day is so easy, you will screw up dosing way less, and therefore crash less. (I've just had a huge crash for this very reason.) Crashes are very expensive in terms of work time lost.
(v) No dental caries, & therefore dental bills.
(vi) Less supporting supplements. Greg recommends Se, I (in iodised salt is enough), vit C, and of course B2 - none of which break the bank.

 

[John Mac]

@John Mac please keep me posted--will you tag me on any updates (I don't always come here). Why isn't Greg making a B2 oil, then?

And sure, please explain why it's cheaper.

Also, does Greg relate any of this to chronic infection?

It's @Johnmac you want not @John Mac

 

[suraj]

Hello @Johnmac

sorry for repeatedly troubling you on this point. can you point me to the post where freddd guided you on how to ramp up carnitine. i still feel im missing out some critical piece of information. as im unable to ramp up. and having sleeplessness when i increase dose to even (1:98) 6 drops/day.

Thanks once again.

Yep, it would be astounding - let's see. Greg's been working with B12 for 25 years, so I take his views seriously.



I began 4 years ago with the Simplified Methylation Protocol, which helped in certain ways. The first big 'wholesale' change - everything improved at once - was when I got the Freddd Protocol right. That took some time, as carnitine gave me horrendous crashes, then when I'd finally figured that out (actually Fred did), I found that all my symptoms would improve beautifully... Then the improvements would fade away.

So I learned to ramp up. Which sorted that problem, tho was costing me an arm & a leg - & involved far too many pills for my liking.

 

[GhostGum]

I wanted to see if anybody could address that, but nobody has, but that's okay. No problem.

Thanks, all. I was hoping someone would address the actual biochemical differences in their viewpoints, rather than their degrees or reputations or a personal opinion of Greg, Yasko or Rich.

I think I did address this, by pointing out there is no cut and dry answers; you are looking for certainty where there is none, on an incredibly highly complex subject. Medicine and scientists have enough trouble understanding the basic mechanisms of many drugs, let alone the methylation cycle and a variant of vitamins and minerals.

Use what base of knowledge is around here, after that you are on your own. The worst thing you can do is think about it too much, maybe it does not go so well to start with and mentally you leave it completely.

 

[boohealth]

@GhostGum No, I felt you diverted the issue by dismissing Yasko and Rich for inadequate reasons, and talking about how much you respect Greg. That doesn't mean anything, though, in terms of an argument.

In contrast, @Johnmac had some interesting and surprising things to say, although once again nobody is explaining how Rich and Yasko (and many other methylation experts in the neuro immune arena could be wrong, including the peer review studies on b12 and folate in autism. If its a b2 problem then everybody has missed it. That would be amazing but anything is possible. I probably will need to ask some scientists. I'm interested in the oils but now waiting to purchase until I understand more of the biochemistry claims Greg is making.

I wholly disagree with you that the worst thing one can do is think about it too much. Its important to research claims so as not to waste money or even harm oneself with approaches.

 

[GhostGum]

@boohealth I am actually not that familiar with Yasko or Rich, and I respect Greg's knowledge but to me it all goes back to exactly what I have expressed here, including Greg's views.

I do not mean its a bad thing to research, I mean its a bad thing to attempt to juggle it in your mind and pretend the information is going to help you in practise. After everything I have been told and read myself, all the methylation accounts on this board that I have seen, simply that the theory and practise are two different things.

Sorry if I am blunt, but I just think the detailed answers you are looking for are likely just theory, and again in practise near irrelevant. Peoples responses to dose, types of B12 and folates are all over the shop and everywhere in between. I also think people get cold feet too easily on this treatment, you are probably looking at years of tinkering and refinement, real neurological healing takes time and that is even if this is key to any individuals case; clearly it is for some but probably not for others.

There just seems no definitive science laid out in any of this, it is incredibly complex with god knows how many variables.

Like most drugs or supplements you learn what you can, then its just hedging your bets and going off experience. Of course some drugs are on fairly solid ground, but there is none of that here.