Unfolded Protein Response and A Possible Treatment for CFS

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
With the tagline, "Turning Men Into Demigods". :confused:

You can see why I was a little hesitant to pick a random brand! They all use uber-masculine packaging and marketing which makes me think of people who market steroid-like supplements promising the perfect body with no side effects.
If it makes you feel any better, my ADRA2A antagonist supplement (Yohimbine) for OI comes straight from the penis section of the supplement stores :p

My prior brand (black bottle, red text) even had a cute warning on the side to make it sound extra serious and effective: "NOT FOR CHILDREN OR WOMEN!!111!!11!1!ONE!11" (roughly paraphrased). That was despite that nothing in the medical literature has any contraindication at all for women and children, and it has no hormonal effect.

My new brand has a hippy-green bottle with a big non-phallic picture of the tree bark on it :love:
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
I just finished another run to find association rules on the data that i collect. It looks like this :



Screen Shot 2015-09-13 at 9.33.10.png



The most common associations are the ones found on the top of the list (ordered by Support, next to the Row ID field, descending).

ER Stress and UPR are on top. The interesting thing is the addition of redox homeostasis and regulation. Notice the XBP1 entry. from wikipedia :


X-box binding protein 1, also known as XBP1, is a protein which in humans is encoded by the XBP1gene.[1][2] The XBP1 gene is located on chromosome 22 while a closely related pseudogene has been identified and localized to chromosome 5.[3] The XBP1 protein is a transcription factor that regulates the expression of genes important to the proper functioning of the immune system and in the cellular stress response.[4]

and also :


Viral replication[edit]
This protein has also been identified as a cellular transcription factor that binds to an enhancer in the promoter of the T cell leukemia virus type 1 promoter. The generation of XBP-1s during plasma cell differentiation also seems to be the cue for Kaposi's sarcoma-associated herpesvirusand Epstein Barr virus reactivation from latency.

Endoplasmic reticulum stress response[edit]
XBP-1 is part of the endoplasmic reticulum (ER) stress response, the unfolded protein response (UPR).[6] Conditions that exceed capacity of the ER provoke ER stress and trigger the unfolded protein response (UPR). As a result GRP78 is released from IRE1 to support protein folding.[8]IRE1 oligomerises and activates its ribonuclease domain through auto (self) phosphorylation. Activated IRE1 catalyses the excision of a 26 nucleotide unconventional intron from ubiquitously expressed XBP-1u mRNA, in a manner mechanistically similar to pre-tRNA splicing. Removal of this intron causes a frame shift in the XBP-1 coding sequence resulting in the translation of a 376 amino acid, 54 kDa, XBP-1s isoform rather than the 261 amino acid, 33 kDa, XBP-1u isoform. Moreover the XBP-1u/XBP-1s ratio (XBP-1-unspliced/xbp-1-spliced ratio) correlates with the expression level of expressed proteins in order to adapt the folding capacity of the ER to the respective requirements.[9]

Clinical significance[edit]
Abnormalities in XBP1 lead to a heightened ER stress and subsequently causes a heightened susceptibility for inflammatory processes that may contribute to Alzheimer's disease.[10] In the colon, XBP1 anomalies have been linked to Crohn's disease.[11]

A single nucleotide polymorphism, C-116G, in the promoter region of XBP1 has been examined for possible associations with personality traits. None were found.[12]
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
@Valentijn

You mentioned that you take a supplement for OI. May ask if you experience (or experienced in the past) any of the following :

-ADHD
-Social Anxiety
-Bradycardia
-Atrial fibrillation
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
You mentioned that you take a supplement for OI. May ask if you experience (or experienced in the past) any of the following :

-ADHD
-Social Anxiety
-Bradycardia
-Atrial fibrillation
Definitely no ADHD or Anxiety. My heart rate monitor indicates low heart rate on rare occasions, but I think it's due to failing to detect some heart beats as a result of a weak pulse (low pulse pressure). I definitely have low pulse pressure. Also no apparent AF. Heart rate is fast at times, but always in reaction to low pulse pressure.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
226
Update on my trial:

Just finished day 20. I'm currently taking,

3x250 mg TUDCA
3x1400 mg NAG
3x10 mg R5P
100 mcg selenium

in addition to my usual methylation supplements. I stopped the choline/insotol based on the feeling it wasn't doing me any good. Sorry I can't be more precise about that.

Well, shortly after my last update, which was slightly positive, I kinda crashed for about a week. Headache, backache, brainfog, OI symptoms, noise intolerance...and so on. My number one suspect in instigating the crash is the two tiny bowls of nuts I ate. I had suspected a problem with nuts before and usually don't eat them, but I was feeling better and hungrier so I thought I would give em a try again.

Things started improving a few days ago, and today I feel pretty good. Better than I have in a few months. Now, there is a bit of a complication, at least in terms of figuring out if this protocol is worthwhile. I have made another significant change recently. After the alleged nut crash, I decided to change my diet from 'nearly paleo' to the autoimmune paleo diet. In other words, I've had to cut nightshades, legumes, eggs, vegetable oils, and of course nuts.

I haven't been able to draw any conclusions yet, but I'm hopeful enough that I've ordered a second bottle of TUDCA. I'll keep updating every ten days.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
Update on my trial:

Just finished day 20. I'm currently taking,

3x250 mg TUDCA
3x1400 mg NAG
3x10 mg R5P
100 mcg selenium

in addition to my usual methylation supplements. I stopped the choline/insotol based on the feeling it wasn't doing me any good. Sorry I can't be more precise about that.

Well, shortly after my last update, which was slightly positive, I kinda crashed for about a week. Headache, backache, brainfog, OI symptoms, noise intolerance...and so on. My number one suspect in instigating the crash is the two tiny bowls of nuts I ate. I had suspected a problem with nuts before and usually don't eat them, but I was feeling better and hungrier so I thought I would give em a try again.

Things started improving a few days ago, and today I feel pretty good. Better than I have in a few months. Now, there is a bit of a complication, at least in terms of figuring out if this protocol is worthwhile. I have made another significant change recently. After the alleged nut crash, I decided to change my diet from 'nearly paleo' to the autoimmune paleo diet. In other words, I've had to cut nightshades, legumes, eggs, vegetable oils, and of course nuts.

I haven't been able to draw any conclusions yet, but I'm hopeful enough that I've ordered a second bottle of TUDCA. I'll keep updating every ten days.

Thank you for the update @skwag, some comments/ideas :

See how you feel with the following interventions :

-increasing Selenium to 200 mcg for 10 days
-adding Magnesium
-eating Eggs
-dropping NAG
-adding Resveratrol

-You mention 3x1400 NAG. Is 1400 the total daily intake or you are taking 3*1400=4200 mg per day ? The same question applies for P5P.

Notice that there exists a question mark regarding the necessity of NAG in my first post (originates from conflicting research on Pubmed). I already dropped Curcumin, NAG and Resveratrol from my regimen since i want to be taking as less supplements as possible.

Again, it will take months to get entirely better (unfortunately) and you need to find what works for you through experimentation.

You will see that your crashes are becoming less frequent and the time it takes to gets better after a crash will be shorter as time goes by. This will mean you are moving on the right way.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
226
See how you feel with the following interventions :

-increasing Selenium to 200 mcg for 10 days and see how you feel
-adding Magnesium
-eating Eggs
-dropping NAG
-adding Resveratrol

Let's see. As part of my usual supplements, I'm already taking magnesium (300mg) and also 100mcg of selenium as part of a multimineral. So I'm actually taking 200 mcg selenium total. ( I should have been more clear about that.) I may try to reintroduce eggs in couple months. The NAG has a very nice effect for me, so in the short term I don't want to drop it. I do intend to try some reservatrol in the near future.

You mention 3x1400 NAG. Is 1400 the total daily intake or you are taking 3*1400=4200 mg per day ? The same question applies for P5P.

4200 mg NAG per day. This is the dosage range that I've read helps some autoimmune cases ( MS. RA ). As some cases of OI have been found to have an autoimmune origin, I figured why not bump it up on the off chance.... I've also found that it rather quickly reduces noise intolerance and has a calming effect.

I think you are referring to R5P ( riboflavin-5-phosphate ) and not P5P. So, I'm taking 30mg R5P/day along with 10mg riboflavin as part of a B-complex. The 3x10mg notation means 10mg taken 3x a day.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
@skwag

OK Great. Just a -possible- caution about NAG. I am saying possible because i am not sure. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that i was already on recovery when i tried NAG, but after some time it appeared to me that i was getting minor infections very easily. For example i was sneezing and had blocked nose very frequently. I cannot attribute this to NAG but i am just saying so you can have this at the back of your head.

Regarding OI. It is just a dysautonomia that originates (?) from Oxidative and/or ER Stress.

While analyzing my Symptoms i found amazing co-occurrences which helped me put many pieces of the puzzle together.

I will not get much into this but if it not a hassle for you, in case you do not have OI all the time try the following :

1) Record OI incidences for 15 days
2) Record the weather and see if OI happens BEFORE any Barometric Drop/ Temperature Drop/ Wind Picking up considerably
3) Monitor the weather also the weather when you do NOT have OI incidences. Was the weather mostly stable these days? (e.g no high winds, no abrupt weather changes, no abrupt barometric rise/fall)


Based on my findings, my theory is that weather changes cause ER and/or Oxidative Stress and in the case that the cell is not protected, a multitude of symptoms (which we know very well) can happen .
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
226
I will not get much into this but if it not a hassle for you, in case you do not have OI all the time try the following :

For the most part, OI is always present. I will definitely keep an eye out for changes based on weather, but I have not found any such correlation in the past.

Just a -possible- caution about NAG. I am saying possible because i am not sure. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that i was already on recovery when i tried NAG, but after some time it appeared to me that i was getting minor infections very easily. For example i was sneezing and had blocked nose very frequently. I cannot attribute this to NAG but i am just saying so you can have this at the back of your head

I'll keep a lookout for this too. That said, I think there are a number of people taking NAG, especially as a part of Hip's Anti-anxiety Protocol. I haven't noticed any similar side effects posted there.
 
Messages
38
Mario, I am not even tolerating my digestive enzymes, I think my ulcer is reactivated, so I will postpone the TUDCA for a while :thumbdown:
@Gondwanaland I hope your ulcer is better soon. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6329384

Any ideas on why FMN can be great at first but then cause nerve pain and/or nerve damage? (only added FMN to a long-time regimen and didn't add other things ... still trying to figure out in this loooong thread what other things people are taking along with FMN and why. greatly reducing dose and stopping FMN didn't help completely, but worsens if try taking even little bits of FMN again)
 

jump44

Senior Member
Messages
122
Very interesting thread. I will spare all the details of my story but its probably similar to a lot here, Ive had cfs symptoms for about 6-7 yrs now and recently over the past year have worsened. THe mental symptoms for me are the worst and its as if my brain is on "overdrive" a lot of the time. I close my eyes and the snow you get after staring at a computer or TV is always there and my thoughts go super fast, hard to concentrate, etc etc. I have a multitude of symptoms described in the original post as well. I have consistently elevated "Porphyrins" and bilirubin when I have blood tests done. Of course all doctors to this point have told me they are no big deal. If anyone has any input on these things thatd be awesome.

Anyways I currently take resveratrol which definitely has a calming effect on me and increases energy. Also take ubiquinol which has gradually helped in a subtle way. Digestive enzymes are essential for me to absorb anything apparently as my stomach acid on tests have come out super low.am on thyroid meds as well. I had given the methylation prootocol a shot in the spring and initial improvements quickly gave way to overstimulation, pain in kidneys, inability to really think, and increased inflammation.Yes I was taking extra potassium etc but it was overwhelming trying to figure wtf was causing what and I stopped. It made me worse. Having said that, to this day I can take a bit of methylfolate and immediately feel sharper and more "alive".

I tried some FMN (about a half of sublingual)the other night and my eyes cleared up in about 5 min, stomach pain
vanished, I felt more relaxed and confident and I noticed as I was watching Television that night I was actually "connecting" with the emotions on screen, something I didnt even realize was missing for so long until it happened. Weird, but Im sure relatable to some of you. ANyways, because of my bad methylation experience I am hesitant to just take a single B vitamin, although this was an extremely positive reaction. I am about to have an appointment with an actual CFS/ME doctor as well so maybe starting a new thing isnt the greatest Idea.They are pretty confident I have a methylation issue at the very least but I will know more soon. I was also concerned about the 5AR inhibiting aspect of B2 although from my reading that would take a huge dose, but since I took saw palmetto in the past and have similar sexual issues to post finasteride guys I am hesitant.

I will say the resveratrol and vitaminD and C I take certainly alleviate some things to an extent and intuitively when I read the OP it seems to fit. I also feel better when I am "normal" sick like the flu(although thats only happened maybe 3 times since this all started) and as I said I share 90% of the symptoms as Mario. I have read about my porphyrin elevation a bit and there appears to be a hazy link which I cant understand between B2, methylation and unfolding proteins and them but not being a scientist or doctor its impossible for me to figure. Anyways I just wanted to say introduce my self a bit ive been following these forums for awhile and while sometimes the info presented here is frustrating, for the most part its been very helpful. I posted in this thread specifically because It was the first Ive read where it was like a mirror image of my experience being described.
 
Last edited:

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
@jump44

Thank you for your post. I added "porphyria" and "bilirubin" in my software assuming that elevated porphyrin leads to porphyria. Now i am NOT suggesting that you have porphyria but look at this (pay attention to bold):



*********Topic : porphyria ***************
dpagt1.csv : 3.33 %
cyp1a2.csv : 0.83 %
cyp1a1.csv : 0.45 %
car.csv : 0.29 %
systemic_amyloidosis.csv : 0.25 %
hepatotoxicity.csv : 0.24 %
p5p.csv : 0.24 %
steatohepatitis.csv : 0.23 %
cholestasis.csv : 0.23 %

redox_homeostasis.csv : 0.22 %
pyruvate_carboxylase.csv : 0.22 %
pgc1.csv : 0.21 %
constipation.csv : 0.21 %
iron_deficiency.csv : 0.20 %
5alphareductase.csv : 0.19 %
vitamin_b6.csv : 0.19 %
urea_cycle.csv : 0.18 %
p450oxidoreductase.csv : 0.18 %
hepatocytes.csv : 0.18 %
dysautonomia.csv : 0.17 %
cimetidine.csv : 0.15 %
amyloidosis.csv : 0.14 %
nac.csv : 0.13 %
phenylketonuria.csv : 0.13 %
riboflavin.csv : 0.12 %
finasteride.csv : 0.12 %
orthostatic_intolerance.csv : 0.11 %
gaba_human.csv : 0.11 %
mast_cell_activation.csv : 0.11 %
ckd.csv : 0.09 %
nafld.csv : 0.09 %
cyp2e1.csv : 0.09 %
zinc_supplementation.csv : 0.09 %
cyp3a4.csv : 0.08 %
pxr.csv : 0.08 %
triiodothyronine_levels.csv : 0.07 %
l_tryptophan.csv : 0.07 %
oxidative_stress_markers.csv : 0.07 %
nad.csv : 0.07 %
adrenal_insufficiency.csv : 0.06 %
creatine_supplementation.csv : 0.06 %
mitochondrial_dysfunction.csv : 0.06 %
reduced_glutathione.csv : 0.06 %
ros.csv : 0.06 %
isotretinoin.csv : 0.05 %
nrf2.csv : 0.05 %
cyp2d6.csv : 0.05 %
allopregnanolone.csv : 0.05 %
lipoic_acid.csv : 0.05 %
ebv.csv : 0.05 %
cfs.csv : 0.05 %
xanthine_oxidase.csv : 0.04 %
fad.csv : 0.04 %
chop.csv : 0.04 %
adrenal_hyperplasia.csv : 0.04 %
cortisol.csv : 0.04 %
coenzymeq10.csv : 0.04 %
rituximab.csv : 0.04 %
perk.csv : 0.03 %
insomnia.csv : 0.03 %
mastocytosis.csv : 0.03 %
freet3.csv : 0.03 %
glycoproteins.csv : 0.03 %
tetrahydrobiopterin.csv : 0.03 %
pregnenolone.csv : 0.03 %
oxidative_stress_protection.csv : 0.03 %
cortisol_levels.csv : 0.03 %
ppp.csv : 0.03 %
gpr78.csv : 0.03 %
oxalates.csv : 0.03 %
neuronal_nos.csv : 0.03 %
testosterone_production.csv : 0.02 %
gluten.csv : 0.02 %
steroidogenesis_human.csv : 0.02 %
magnesium_deficiency.csv : 0.02 %
3betahsd.csv : 0.02 %
l_carnitine.csv : 0.02 %
beta-alanine.csv : 0.02 %
hmgcoa.csv : 0.02 %
crohns_disease.csv : 0.02 %
insulin_resistance.csv : 0.02 %
nadh_dehydrogenase.csv : 0.02 %
glutamate.csv : 0.02 %
serotonin_levels.csv : 0.02 %
amyloid.csv : 0.02 %
chaperones.csv : 0.02 %
protease_inhibitor.csv : 0.02 %
5-htp.csv : 0.02 %
er_stress.csv : 0.02 %
n-acetylglucosamine.csv : 0.02 %
caloric_restriction.csv : 0.02 %
phospholipid_human.csv : 0.02 %
limbic_system.csv : 0.02 %
biotin.csv : 0.02 %
udpgluc.csv : 0.02 %
monoamine_oxidase.csv : 0.01 %
hpa_axis.csv : 0.01 %
nadph_oxidase.csv : 0.01 %
heat_shock_protein.csv : 0.01 %
resveratrol.csv : 0.01 %
uric_acid.csv : 0.01 %
bradycardia.csv : 0.01 %
human_proteinuria.csv : 0.01 %
phosphatidylcholine.csv : 0.01 %
norepinephrine.csv : 0.01 %
neurite_outgrowth.csv : 0.01 %
thioredoxin.csv : 0.01 %
human_semen.csv : 0.01 %
tinnitus.csv : 0.01 %
butyrate.csv : 0.01 %
calcium_homeostasis.csv : 0.01 %
omega3.csv : 0.01 %
panic_disorder.csv : 0.01 %
l-dopa.csv : 0.01 %
ngf.csv : 0.01 %
acetylcholine.csv : 0.01 %
immune_response.csv : 0.01 %
hydroxysteroid_dehydrogenase.csv : 0.01 %
selenium.csv : 0.01 %
social_anxiety.csv : 0.01 %
p53.csv : 0.01 %
glycosylation.csv : 0.01 %
taurine.csv : 0.01 %
nmda.csv : 0.01 %
dopamine.csv : 0.01 %
hsp70.csv : 0.01 %


and now bilirubin


*********Topic : bilirubin ***************
udpgluc.csv : 17.72 %
cholestasis.csv : 9.38 %
hepatotoxicity.csv : 5.97 %

car.csv : 4.52 %
tudca.csv : 3.78 %
uric_acid.csv : 2.44
%
pxr.csv : 2.42 %
reduced_glutathione.csv : 1.89 %
hepatocytes.csv : 1.50 %
hsc.csv : 1.47 %
steatohepatitis.csv : 1.45 %
taurine.csv : 1.41 %
oxidative_stress_markers.csv : 1.38 %
oxidative_stress_protection.csv : 1.14 %
mucuna.csv : 1.10 %
nafld.csv : 0.97 %
nrf2.csv : 0.78 %
nac.csv : 0.67 %
asymmetric_dimethylarginine.csv : 0.65 %
cyp2e1.csv : 0.63 %
redox_homeostasis.csv : 0.60 %
protease_inhibitor.csv : 0.59 %
sshl.csv : 0.56 %
creatine_supplementation.csv : 0.56 %
cyp1a2.csv : 0.55 %
3betahsd.csv : 0.53 %
curcumin.csv : 0.52 %
cyp3a4.csv : 0.49 %
inducible_nos.csv : 0.49 %
lipoic_acid.csv : 0.45 %
riboflavin.csv : 0.45 %
choline_deficiency.csv : 0.43 %
urea_cycle.csv : 0.42 %
d-limonene.csv : 0.41 %
cyp1a1.csv : 0.41 %
p450oxidoreductase.csv : 0.39 %
xanthine_oxidase.csv : 0.39 %
phospholipid_human.csv : 0.39 %
nadph_oxidase.csv : 0.38 %
zinc_supplementation.csv : 0.38 %
triiodothyronine_levels.csv : 0.38 %
pqq.csv : 0.38 %
caloric_restriction.csv : 0.38 %
mitochondrial_dysfunction.csv : 0.37 %
inflammatory_response.csv : 0.36 %
peroxynitrite.csv : 0.35 %
redox_regulation.csv : 0.35 %
monosodium_glutamate.csv : 0.34 %
ros.csv : 0.34 %
glutamate.csv : 0.33 %
l_tryptophan.csv : 0.32 %
hydroxysteroid_dehydrogenase.csv : 0.31 %
human_proteinuria.csv : 0.31 %
pregnenolone.csv : 0.30 %
redox_potential.csv : 0.30 %
udpglcnac.csv : 0.29 %
isotretinoin.csv : 0.29 %
phosphatidylcholine.csv : 0.29 %
hmgb1.csv : 0.28 %
l_carnitine.csv : 0.28 %
iron_deficiency.csv : 0.28 %
ebv.csv : 0.27 %
il_10.csv : 0.27 %
resveratrol.csv : 0.26 %
neuronal_nos.csv : 0.25 %
ckd.csv : 0.25 %
selenium.csv : 0.24 %
freet3.csv : 0.24 %
osmolytes.csv : 0.23 %
nad.csv : 0.23 %
excitotoxicity.csv : 0.22 %
rituximab.csv : 0.22 %
systemic_amyloidosis.csv : 0.22 %
n-acetylglucosamine.csv : 0.22 %
hmgcoa.csv : 0.21 %
coenzymeq10.csv : 0.21 %
chop.csv : 0.21 %
omega3.csv : 0.20 %
ginkgo.csv : 0.20 %
cortisol_levels.csv : 0.19 %
cfs.csv : 0.18 %
probiotics.csv : 0.17 %
l-arginine.csv : 0.17 %
endothelial_nos.csv : 0.17 %
fad.csv : 0.16 %
subclinicalhypo.csv : 0.16 %
bradycardia.csv : 0.16 %
beta-alanine.csv : 0.16 %
vcam-1.csv : 0.16 %
cimetidine.csv : 0.15 %
microglia.csv : 0.15 %
selenium_deficiency.csv : 0.15 %
calcium_homeostasis.csv : 0.15 %
cortisol.csv : 0.15 %
constipation.csv : 0.15 %
er_stress.csv : 0.14 %
scfa.csv : 0.14 %
hsp70.csv : 0.14 %
peroxiredoxin.csv : 0.14 %
xbp1.csv : 0.14 %
glutaredoxin.csv : 0.14 %
glycoproteins.csv : 0.13 %
hexosamine.csv : 0.13 %
fmo3.csv : 0.13 %
crohns_disease.csv : 0.13 %
mthfr.csv : 0.13 %
heat_shock_protein.csv : 0.13 %
immune_response.csv : 0.13 %
vitamin_d3.csv : 0.13 %
butyrate.csv : 0.13 %
advanced_glycation_end.csv : 0.13 %
insulin_resistance.csv : 0.12 %
cox-2.csv : 0.12 %
fmn.csv : 0.12 %
nadh_dehydrogenase.csv : 0.12 %
cyp2d6.csv : 0.12 %
rxr.csv : 0.12 %
glycerylphosphorylcholine.csv : 0.12 %
upr.csv : 0.12 %
hypobaric_hypoxia.csv : 0.11 %
mcp-1.csv : 0.11 %
pyruvate_carboxylase.csv : 0.11 %
hgh.csv : 0.11 %
p5p.csv : 0.11 %
adrenal_insufficiency.csv : 0.11 %
perk.csv : 0.10 %
amyloidosis.csv : 0.10 %
gluten.csv : 0.10 %
pbmc.csv : 0.10 %
tmao.csv : 0.10 %
stat1.csv : 0.09 %
l_tyrosine.csv : 0.09 %
tetrahydrobiopterin.csv : 0.09 %
sod1.csv : 0.09 %
norepinephrine.csv : 0.09 %
thioredoxin.csv : 0.08 %
phenylketonuria.csv : 0.08 %
gtp_cyclohydrolase.csv : 0.08 %
mastocytosis.csv : 0.08 %
neurite_outgrowth.csv : 0.08 %
caspase_human.csv : 0.08 %
misfolded_proteins.csv : 0.08 %
serotonin_levels.csv : 0.08 %
angiotensin_human.csv : 0.08 %
amyloid.csv : 0.07 %
adrenal_hyperplasia.csv : 0.07 %
atrial_fibrillation.csv : 0.07 %
tau.csv : 0.07 %
insomnia.csv : 0.06 %
testosterone_production.csv : 0.06 %
biotin.csv : 0.06 %
monoamine_oxidase.csv : 0.06 %
microbiome_humans.csv : 0.06 %
oxalates.csv : 0.06 %
dolichol.csv : 0.06 %
dopamine.csv : 0.06 %
orthostatic_intolerance.csv : 0.06 %
gaba_human.csv : 0.06 %
nmda.csv : 0.06 %
gpr78.csv : 0.05 %
mast_cell_activation.csv : 0.05 %
adhd.csv : 0.05 %
acetyl_coa_carboxylase.csv : 0.05 %
ampa.csv : 0.05 %
glycosylation.csv : 0.05 %
pdi.csv : 0.05 %
steroidogenesis_human.csv : 0.05 %
magnesium_deficiency.csv : 0.05 %
vitamin_k2.csv : 0.05 %
l-dopa.csv : 0.04 %
autism.csv : 0.04 %
anhedonia.csv : 0.04 %
tinnitus.csv : 0.04 %
5-htp.csv : 0.04 %
inositol.csv : 0.04 %
p53.csv : 0.04 %
dysautonomia.csv : 0.03 %
histone_deacetylase.csv : 0.03 %
irritable_bowel.csv : 0.03 %
acetylcholine.csv : 0.03 %
ppp.csv : 0.03 %
sinusitis.csv : 0.03 %
sirt1.csv : 0.03 %
social_anxiety.csv : 0.03 %
kainate.csv : 0.03 %
human_semen.csv : 0.03 %
rar.csv : 0.03 %
limbic_system.csv : 0.02 %
5alphareductase.csv : 0.02 %
acetyl-coa.csv : 0.02 %
adrenergic_receptor.csv : 0.02 %
vitamin_b6.csv : 0.02 %
chaperones.csv : 0.02 %
ngf.csv : 0.02 %
dht.csv : 0.02 %
disulfide_bonds.csv : 0.01 %


So DPAGT1 and UDPGLUC are the topics most commonly matched when bilirubin and porphyria are entered.Let's see at each topic


DPAGT1 :

The protein encoded by this gene is an enzyme that catalyzes the first step in the dolichol-linked oligosaccharide pathway for glycoprotein biosynthesis. This enzyme belongs to the glycosyltransferase family 4. This protein is an integral membrane protein of the endoplasmic reticulum. The congenital disorder of glycosylation type Ij is caused by mutation in the gene encoding this enzyme. [provided by RefSeq, Jul 2008]


and now udpgluc that you saw earlier is actually UDP glucuronosyltransferase 1 family, polypeptide A1

The UGT1A1 gene is part of a complex locus that encodes several UDP-glucuronosyltransferases. The locus includes thirteen unique alternate first exons followed by four common exons. Four of the alternate first exons are considered pseudogenes. Each of the remaining nine 5' exons may be spliced to the four common exons, resulting in nine proteins with different N-termini and identical C-termini. Each first exon encodes the substrate binding site, and is regulated by its own promoter.[3] Over 100 genetic variants within the UGT1A1 gene have been described, some of which confer increased, reduced or inactive enzymatic activity. The UGT nomenclature committee has compiled a list of these variants, naming each with a * symbol followed by a number.


UGT1A1 mutations are associated with seriously impaired bilirubin metabolism. Of course i am not suggesting that this applies to you.

There is a possibility though that your liver function may not be optimal.

Try adding TUDCA, Choline and Inositol to your regimen. Ask your Doctor for this. Whatever i see in you is my story : I believe my Liver function was not good because i also had somewhat elevated bilirubin levels.

Non-optimal liver function does not help you at all...


Also i suggest that you take 1/5 of FMN sublingual assuming you are taking the Source Naturals brand. We don't really need to take 1000% of the RDA right?
 

jump44

Senior Member
Messages
122
Excellent post mario ty very much. That data you run certainly seems to be hitting on some things that are commonalities amongst at least a certain portion of Cfs type sufferers. There are 8 different porphyrins that are measured apparently, 3 of mine were somewhat elevated. I went to a "porphyria specialist" who quickly told me that Id need to have porhpyrin levels of 100 times normal to be of any consequence.. Well Idk what to think about that but with all my symptoms...And common sense tells me that porphyrins are something that are certainly NOT supposed to be high in any regard.

I have NO doubt that at least in my case the liver is heavily involved. In fact during one of my bad "attacks" or relapses my right side was heavy and even in the best of times it feels like my right side/ gallbladder is inflamed. Interesting this even subsided greatly during the FMN ingestion the other evening. All any dr. has ever told me about my bilirubin is "gilberts syndrome" which they of course suggest is harmless, just like my elevated porphyrins and off track thyroid..
Yet somehow a former pro athlete is barely able to survive some days..something doesnt add up!!

Thanks for your suggestions, after my appointment with the CFS specialist monday I will talk to her about these supplements and hopefully I will be able to add them. As i said intuitively your hypothesis, to me, is at least in the ballpark of what may be happening, at least for a portion of us. Yes I have the FMN from SN its 18mg/serving so I could easily split it into 1/4ths. all I know is that it was potent, and energizing, for me. My eyes for a long time havent been right, in fact i had to at one point last year take a holiday from contacts because my eyes were so inflamed. Lately Id had just been thinking it was my older contacts causing me dryness but within 20 min of taking the FMN they didnt bother me in the slightest. Its giving me hope that their is an actual underlying cause that can be puzzled together and this thing can at the very worst be managed. Also I am glad to hear you have recovered and are bringing what worked to help others. cool stuff.
 
Last edited:

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
Dear All,


Just wanted to let you know that after going through a day with extreme weather conditions and a rather big Temperature drop without any Symptoms, i am fully recovered. I am absolutely sure now.

I will continue working to reach the absolute basics. I started FMN, Biotin, Molybdenum per @ppodahjski suggestions.

If this all is just a matter of providing cofactors then why not, i will follow it.


I already dropped NAG, Resveratrol, Curcumin and i will slowly drop Choline/Alpha GPC, Inositol and TUDCA. But please be aware that you may have to fix an impaired liver function (which i believe a lot of us have) so you can stop ER Stress occurring at the hepatocyte level. This is a vicious cycle which puts you further into the ground.

So the time has come to see if just redox regulation is that all is needed or if we need a combined redox regulation/ER Stress regulation approach.

Once i know i will update this Thread and edit the first post accordingly.

I would like to Thank all of you for your support. Each and everyone of you.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
3,233
Good for you, Mario! I'm very happy for you, and you deserve it for all your kindness in trying to help others.

I am wondering if what you have done to correct the damage from finesteride will go beyond just correcting that damage and also correct whatever was causing you to need finasteride to begin with. A Chinese friend had told me that hair loss in men at an early age is caused by liver heat. Chinese medicine language is much different from western, but I wonder if that has something to do with stress to the endoplasmic reticulum. Just a thought.
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
I think we may be finding yet another important aspect of CFS, Thanks to @ppodhajski


Here is the latest association analysis of matched concepts :


Screen Shot 2015-09-23 at 10.54.32.png


ER Stress and UPR are still on top, however : Notice how redox_homeostasis, redox_regulation appear on top but also something called peroxiredoxin and also thioredoxin.


From wikipedia :

Peroxiredoxin uses thioredoxin (Trx) to recharge after reducing hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) in the following reactions:[10]

  • Prx(reduced) + H2O2 → Prx(oxidized) + 2H2O
  • Prx(oxidized) + Trx(reduced) → Prx(reduced) + Trx(oxidized)
The oxidized form of Prx is inactive, requiring the donation of electrons from reduced Trx to restore its catalytic activity.[11]

The physiological importance of peroxiredoxins is illustrated by their relative abundance (one of the most abundant proteins in erythrocytes after hemoglobin is peroxiredoxin 2) as well as studies inknockout mice. Mice lacking peroxiredoxin 1 or 2 develop severe haemolytic anemia, and are predisposed to certain haematopoietic cancers. Peroxiredoxin 1 knockout mice have a 15% reduction in lifespan.[12] Peroxiredoxin 6 knockout mice are viable and do not display obvious gross pathology, but are more sensitive to certain exogenous sources of oxidative stress, such as hyperoxia.[13]Peroxiredoxin 3 (mitochondrial matrix peroxiredoxin) knockout mice are viable and do not display obvious gross pathology. Peroxiredoxins are proposed to play a role in cell signaling by regulating H2O2 levels.[14]

Plant 2-Cys peroxiredoxins are post-translationally targeted to chloroplasts,[15] where they protect the photosynthetic membrane against photooxidative damage.[16] Nuclear gene expression depends on chloroplast-to-nucleus signalling and responds to photosynthetic signals, such as the acceptor availability at photosystem II and ABA.[17]

Circadian clock[edit]
Peroxiredoxins have been implicated in the 24-hour internal circadian clock of many organisms.[18][19][20]



and now Thioredoxin :



Function[edit]
Thioredoxins are proteins that act as antioxidants by facilitating the reduction of other proteins by cysteine thiol-disulfide exchange. Thioredoxins are found in nearly all known organisms and are essential for life in mammals.[3][4]

Thioredoxin is a 12-kD oxidoreductase enzyme containing a dithiol-disulfide active site. It is ubiquitous and found in many organisms from plants and bacteria to mammals. Multiple in vitro substrates for thioredoxin have been identified, including ribonuclease, choriogonadotropins, coagulation factors, glucocorticoid receptor, and insulin. Reduction of insulin is classically used as an activity test.[5]

Thioredoxins are characterized at the level of their amino acid sequence by the presence of two vicinal cysteines in a CXXC motif. These two cysteines are the key to the ability of thioredoxin to reduce other proteins. Thioredoxin proteins also have a characteristic tertiary structure termed the thioredoxin fold.

The thioredoxins are kept in the reduced state by the flavoenzyme thioredoxin reductase, in a NADPH-dependent reaction.[6] Thioredoxins act as electron donors to peroxidases andribonucleotide reductase.[7] The related glutaredoxins share many of the functions of thioredoxins, but are reduced by glutathione rather than a specific reductase.

The benefit of thioredoxins to reduce oxidative stress is shown by transgenic mice that overexpress thioredoxin, are more resistant to inflammation, and live 35% longer[8] — supporting thefree radical theory of aging. However, the controls of this study were short lived, which may have contributed to the apparent increase in longevity.[9]

Plants have an unusually complex complement of Trxs composed of six well-defined types (Trxs f, m, x, y, h, and o) that reside in different cell compartments and function in an array of processes. In 2010 it was discovered for the first time that thioredoxin proteins are able to move from cell to cell, representing a novel form of cellular communication in plants.[2]

Regulation of H2O2 is critical since it is an oxidant.


Then i used yet another software to automatically search within PubMed entries for what scavenges/reduces H2O2 apart from Peroxiredoxin/Thioredoxin, i copied and pasted the output here. In bold i have information which may be of particular interest (sorry for the duplicates) :


"peroxiredoxin-5 (prdx5) is a thioredoxin peroxidase that reduces hydrogen peroxide

"background: we intended to examine the functional role of microrna 26 (mir-26a) in regulating h2o2-induced cytotoxicity and apoptosis in rgc-5 cells in vitro.

"human peroxiredoxin-5 (prdx5) is a thiol peroxidase that reduces h2o2 10(5) times faster than free cysteine.

"peroxiredoxin 3 (prx3) is a mitochondrial member of the antioxidant family of thioredoxin peroxidases that uses mitochondrial thioredoxin 2 as a source of reducing equivalents to scavenge hydrogen peroxide (h2o2).

"peroxiredoxins (prxs) are a family of thiol peroxidases that participate in hydroperoxide detoxification and regulates h2o2 signaling.

"glutathione peroxidase-1 (gpx1) is a pivotal intracellular antioxidant enzyme that enzymatically reduces hydrogen peroxide to water to limit its harmful effects.

the results showed that the phenolics extracted from 'golden delicious' apple peel had a strong ability for scavenging h2o2.

"an escherichia coli strain that cannot scavenge hydrogen peroxide has been used to identify the cell processes that are most sensitive to this oxidant.

we also illustrated that any effect leading to more coupled states leads to enhanced h2o2 generation and any effect resulting in uncoupling gives reduced h2o2 generation in bat mitochondria.

"the glutathione redox cycle plays a major role in scavenging hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) under physiological conditions.

"the aim of this study was to investigate whether reoxygenation with 21% o2 rather than 100% o2 results in reduced hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) concentrations in neutrophils (pmn).

"a peroxidase from yeast that reduces h2o2 with the use of electrons provided by thioredoxin (trx) together with homologs from a wide variety of species constitute the peroxiredoxin (prx) family of proteins.

"a yeast peroxidase that reduces h2o2 and alkyl hydroperoxides with the use of reducing equivalents provided by thioredoxin was identified previously and named thioredoxin peroxidase (tpx) [chae

the omission of na+ from the incubation buffer significantly reduced h2o2-cytotoxicity.

"we demonstrated that high glucose reduced h2o2 scavenge activity in human vascular smooth muscle cells.

"background: selenium dependent glutathione peroxidase (gpx) reduces hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) and organic hydrogen peroxides in both normal and pathological states.

"catalase (cat) is an enzyme to scavenge h2o2 and to protect peroxidation of cell wall lipid and lipoproteins.

"the role of different antioxidant pathways in cultured rat pleural mesothelial cells was studied by exposing the cells to various hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) concentrations and by measuring h2o2 cell cytotoxicity and the capacity of the cells to scavenge h2o2.

supplementation with stearic acid (18:0) or oleic acid [18:1(n-9)] reduced h2o2-induced paec injury measured as release of intracellular lactate dehydrogenase (ldh).

the results suggest that unstimulated or stimulated phagocytic cells can scavenge h2o2 and may potentially decrease h2o2-mediated tissue injury.

"the capacity of d-penicillamine (dp) to produce or scavenge hydrogen peroxide was investigated.

steady state kinetics data are consistent with a scheme in which the formation in microsomes of a complex of 1 mole of nadph with nadph-cytochrome p-450 reductase and 1 mole hexobarbital with cytochrome p-450 regulates h2o2 formation.

"the enzymes responsible for reducing h2o2 were surveyed in 49 strains of leptospira by using semiquantitative assays for catalase and peroxidase.

"catalase (cat) is an antioxidant enzyme and plays a significant role in the protection against oxidative stress by reducing hydrogen peroxide.

"an escherichia coli strain that cannot scavenge hydrogen peroxide has been used to identify the cell processes that are most sensitive to this oxidant.

"the chimeric peroxidase pgdx of haemophilus influenzae rd belongs to a recently identified family of thiol peroxidases capable of reducing hydrogen peroxide as well as alkylhydroperoxides by means of glutathione redox cycling.

"a peroxidase from yeast that reduces h2o2 with the use of electrons provided by thioredoxin (trx) together with homologs from a wide variety of species constitute the peroxiredoxin (prx) family of proteins.

"background: selenium dependent glutathione peroxidase (gpx) reduces hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) and organic hydrogen peroxides in both normal and pathological states.

"catalase (cat) is an enzyme to scavenge h2o2 and to protect peroxidation of cell wall lipid and lipoproteins.

"the role of different antioxidant pathways in cultured rat pleural mesothelial cells was studied by exposing the cells to various hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) concentrations and by measuring h2o2 cell cytotoxicity and the capacity of the cells to scavenge h2o2.

the results suggest that unstimulated or stimulated phagocytic cells can scavenge h2o2 and may potentially decrease h2o2-mediated tissue injury.

steady state kinetics data are consistent with a scheme in which the formation in microsomes of a complex of 1 mole of nadph with nadph-cytochrome p-450 reductase and 1 mole hexobarbital with cytochrome p-450 regulates h2o2 formation.

"the enzymes responsible for reducing h2o2 were surveyed in 49 strains of leptospira by using semiquantitative assays for catalase and peroxidase.

"glutathione peroxidase (gpx) is an important antioxidant that effectively scavenges hydrogen peroxide.

a family of thioredoxin-dependent peroxidases (peroxiredoxins) protects against apoptosis by scavenging hydrogen peroxide.

"a peroxidase from yeast that reduces h2o2 with the use of electrons provided by thioredoxin (trx) together with homologs from a wide variety of species constitute the peroxiredoxin (prx) family of proteins.

we also illustrated that any effect leading to more coupled states leads to enhanced h2o2 generation and any effect resulting in uncoupling gives reduced h2o2 generation in bat mitochondria.

"dual oxidases (duox1 and duox2) are evolutionary conserved reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate oxidases responsible for regulated hydrogen peroxide (h(2)o(2)) release of epithelial cells.

"ascorbate is a crucial antioxidant for scavenging hydrogen peroxide generated from the physiological processes and environmental stresses.

steady state kinetics data are consistent with a scheme in which the formation in microsomes of a complex of 1 mole of nadph with nadph-cytochrome p-450 reductase and 1 mole hexobarbital with cytochrome p-450 regulates h2o2 formation.

"a series of cinnamic acids along with their corresponding benzoate analogues were tested for their ability to scavenge hydrogen peroxide (h(2)o(2))

"catalase (cat) is an antioxidant enzyme and plays a significant role in the protection against oxidative stress by reducing hydrogen peroxide.

dj-1 is implicated in the protection of neurons from oxidative stress by scavenging hydrogen peroxide and regulating the transcriptional activity of multiple pathways.

"glutathione peroxidase (gpx) is a primary antioxidant enzyme that scavenges hydrogen peroxide or organic hydroperoxides.

"peroxiredoxin-5 (prdx5) is a thioredoxin peroxidase that reduces hydrogen peroxide

"peroxiredoxins (prxs) make up an ancient family of enzymes that are the predominant peroxidases for nearly all organisms and play essential roles in reducing hydrogen peroxide

"members of the peroxiredoxin (prx) family are major cellular antioxidants that scavenge hydrogen peroxide and play essential roles in oxidative stress and cell signaling.

"human peroxiredoxin-5 (prdx5) is a thiol peroxidase that reduces h2o2 10(5) times faster than free cysteine.

"peroxiredoxin 3 (prx3) is a mitochondrial member of the antioxidant family of thioredoxin peroxidases that uses mitochondrial thioredoxin 2 as a source of reducing equivalents to scavenge hydrogen peroxide (h2o2).

"peroxiredoxins (prxs) are a family of thiol peroxidases that participate in hydroperoxide detoxification and regulates h2o2 signaling.

dj-1 is implicated in the protection of neurons from oxidative stress by scavenging hydrogen peroxide and regulating the transcriptional activity of multiple pathways.

"typical 2-cys peroxiredoxins (prxs) have an important role in regulating hydrogen peroxide-mediated cell signalling.

a family of thioredoxin-dependent peroxidases (peroxiredoxins) protects against apoptosis by scavenging hydrogen peroxide.

"peroxiredoxin-3 (prdx3) is a mitochondrial member of the antioxidant family of thioredoxin peroxidases that uses mitochondrial thioredoxin-2 (trx2) as a source of reducing equivalents to scavenge hydrogen peroxide (h(2)o(2)).

"peroxiredoxin (prx) is an important antioxidant defense enzyme that reduces hydrogen peroxide to molecular oxygen by using reducing equivalents from thioredoxin.

"a peroxidase from yeast that reduces h2o2 with the use of electrons provided by thioredoxin (trx) together with homologs from a wide variety of species constitute the peroxiredoxin (prx) family of proteins.

"a yeast peroxidase that reduces h2o2 and alkyl hydroperoxides with the use of reducing equivalents provided by thioredoxin was identified previously and named thioredoxin peroxidase (tpx) [chae

"extracellular glutathione peroxidase (egpx) is a glycosylated selenoprotein capable of reducing hydrogen peroxide

"glutathione peroxidase-1 (gpx1) is a pivotal intracellular antioxidant enzyme that enzymatically reduces hydrogen peroxide to water to limit its harmful effects.

a family of thioredoxin-dependent peroxidases (peroxiredoxins) protects against apoptosis by scavenging hydrogen peroxide.

"the glutathione redox cycle plays a major role in scavenging hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) under physiological conditions.

"peroxiredoxin-5 (prdx5) is a thioredoxin peroxidase that reduces hydrogen peroxide

"glutathione peroxidase-1 (gpx1) is a pivotal intracellular antioxidant enzyme that enzymatically reduces hydrogen peroxide to water to limit its harmful effects.

"ascorbate peroxidases are directly involved in reactive oxygen species (ros) scavenging by reducing hydrogen peroxide to water.

dj-1 is implicated in the protection of neurons from oxidative stress by scavenging hydrogen peroxide and regulating the transcriptional activity of multiple pathways.

"bacterial di-heme cytochrome c peroxidases (ccpas) protect the cell from reactive oxygen species by reducing hydrogen peroxide to water.

we also illustrated that any effect leading to more coupled states leads to enhanced h2o2 generation and any effect resulting in uncoupling gives reduced h2o2 generation in bat mitochondria.

"sheep airway mucus can potently scavenge hydrogen peroxide

"background: selenium dependent glutathione peroxidase (gpx) reduces hydrogen peroxide (h2o2) and organic hydrogen peroxides in both normal and pathological states.

"peroxiredoxin-5 (prdx5) is a thioredoxin peroxidase that reduces hydrogen peroxide

"peroxiredoxin 3 (prx3) is a mitochondrial member of the antioxidant family of thioredoxin peroxidases that uses mitochondrial thioredoxin 2 as a source of reducing equivalents to scavenge hydrogen peroxide (h2o2).

a family of thioredoxin-dependent peroxidases (peroxiredoxins) protects against apoptosis by scavenging hydrogen peroxide.

"peroxiredoxin (prx) is an important antioxidant defense enzyme that reduces hydrogen peroxide to molecular oxygen by using reducing equivalents from thioredoxin.

"a peroxidase from yeast that reduces h2o2 with the use of electrons provided by thioredoxin (trx) together with homologs from a wide variety of species constitute the peroxiredoxin (prx) family of proteins.

"a yeast peroxidase that reduces h2o2 and alkyl hydroperoxides with the use of reducing equivalents provided by thioredoxin was identified previously and named thioredoxin peroxidase (tpx) [chae

Notice how Selenium and Vitamin C (ascorbate) -both part of the regimen proposed here- play an important role for H2O2 scavenging.



I also dropped today Metafolin by 1000 mcg (i was taking 2000 mcg) and also Choline and Inositol. We will see what happens, fingers crossed :)
 

mariovitali

Senior Member
Messages
1,216
@Violeta

I am looking for Associations between all CFS symptoms and Topics in Pubmed.

Yes i do take FMN, half a tablet.

Regarding Hydrogen, i will have to read more
 
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