Time for ME Assoc to quit the UK Research Collaborative?

Messages
1,446
.
@charles shepherd wrote: 'I have already made it clear that I am very unhappy with the way in which an SMC press conference to promote an item of ME/CFS research has yet again led to some very inaccurate and unhelpful coverage of ME/CFS. I have communicated my concerns to members of the Board and to the SMC.'



I know you have done that, Charles. And have done previously, as has Neil Riley (MEA). The SMC activities have not changed. Do the other CMRC members approve of the SMC press reports on ME research? I hope there is not a gulf between patients, who are wise to the SMC modus operandi, and CMRC members, if they cannot see a problem with the actions of the Science Media Centre.
.
 
Messages
1,446
.
@nasim marie jafry wrote: "having for the first time just seen a clip of a news prog in 1996 when Simon Wessely told the UK that ME was now known as CFS and had a psychological factor, I am amazed we have any biomedical initiatives at all.'


With the developments in ME bioresearch of the last 20 years, I am amazed that the media headlines and stories are still 'ME just needs exercise and psychotherapy'. The narrative has not changed in the 20 years since 1996..
.
 
Last edited:

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
I'm with Charles on this. There are really good people in the Collaborative, you just have to ignore the dodgy BACME ones (and I did at CMRC2015). Also, I *fully* understand the concerns about AfME, but I really like Sonya, having met her twice now. I love her energy. I imagine she and I don't agree on everything, but tbh I feel uneasy when I see her being dissed. Moreover, she is not Action for ME, she is not their history.

As an aside: having for the first time just seen a clip of a news prog in 1996 when Simon Wessely told the UK that ME was now known as CFS and had a psychological factor, I am amazed we have any biomedical initiatives at all. My 1983 illness, ME, demolished, just like that! This crystallises, of course, why UK journalists today have no idea at all what ME is and why we are in the state we are in. Sorry if this is off topic, although it's not - I guess everything is related here - but I really need to post this wee clip of Simon changing the narrative - I saw it on Twitter today via @MEawareness


I want to know who all those people are around the table discussing this CFS label!

Thanks Nasim

From the dim and distant past!

This is the press conference to launch the Royal Colleges infamous report on ME/CFS

It was also when the medical establishment were almost succeeding in completely removing the term ME from medical language

I'll have another look tomorrow and see if I can put some more names to faces

I might even spot myself - If I recall correctly I did an interview with another TV station along with paediatrician Dr Alan Franklin
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
CS notes on the 1996 Royal Colleges report:

http://bjsw.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/5/755.extract

But The Lancet did not like it:

http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(05)64917-3.pdf

>>

The report points out that in studies of psychiatric

disorder in CFS, about half the patients fulfilled

criteria for affective disorder and a further quarter

had other psychiatric illness, mainly anxiety and

somatisation disorders. This is where the charities

cry “foul”. The sixteen-strong committee was topheavy

with psychiatric experts, so the emphasis on

psychological causes and management (introduction

of graded exercise and cognitive behaviour therapy)

is no surprise. Charles Shepherd, medical director

for the ME Association, told us that “the committee

was rigged, with dissenting voices excluded”. He

feels that a 1984 report published by the charity

Westcare, which prompted the latest report, was

“too physically oriented” for some people and it

called for the government to fund research.

Certainly, the expert committee describes no

attempt to collect external opinions, and the report

is little more than a literature survey.
 
Last edited:

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Professor David Nutt is carrying out the MRC funded sleep study (assessing the use of sodium oxybate to improve slow wave sleep) at Imperial College, London

He is not a member of the Board of the UKRC

He has never been a member of the Board

Thanks for clarifying that. How about Carmine Pariante was he ever involved in this project and if so is he still now?

Also can you tell us anything about any "confidentiality" agreements people may have signed to agree not to criticize any of the work of any of the participants. Is there any truth in that and if so can you elaborate.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Thanks for clarifying that. How about Carmine Pariante was he ever involved in this project and if so is he still now?

Also can you tell us anything about any "confidentiality" agreements people may have signed to agree not to criticize any of the work of any of the participants. Is there any truth in that and if so can you elaborate.

Re CP - please have a look at my amended membership list. He is now a member of the RC Board.

Constructive criticism is crucial part of the scientific debate and I am not prevented from making constructive criticism of research studies such as the PACE trial and the Lightning Process - as I have done in the past and will continue to do so in the future

It's now very late and I don't have time to cut and paste from the UKRC Charter - suggest you have a look at it if you want to dig deeper on this
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
Constructive criticism is crucial part of the scientific debate and I am not prevented from making constructive criticism of research studies such as the PACE trial and the Lightning Process - as I have done in the past and will continue to do so in the future

Thankyou for your reply and previous and ongoing criticism of PACE and LP.

However, are you prevented in any way from making criticism of studies from within the UKRC and did you personally sign anything agreeing to abide by such an agreement?
 

Scarecrow

Revolting Peasant
Messages
1,904
Location
Scotland
It's now very late and I don't have time to cut and paste from the UKRC Charter - suggest you have a look at it if you want to dig deeper on this
However, are you prevented in any way from making criticism of studies from within the UKRC and did you personally sign anything agreeing to abide by such an agreement?
It might be difficult to find a copy of the Charter just now as the AfME website service provider is in liquidation but here are the relevant clauses.

Members must:
3.1.3. Not take part in the harassment or abuse of researchers including taking part in orchestrated campaigns against those conducting peer-reviewed research.

3.2.3 Members will be required to sign a declaration that they will not take part in the harassment or abuse of researchers. Neither will they take part in orchestrated campaigns against those conducting peer-reviewed research.

Note that these are not 'gagging clauses'. They allow valid criticism of research but not personal abuse or harassment.
 

RustyJ

Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'
Messages
1,200
Location
Mackay, Aust
I have already made it clear that I am very unhappy with the way in which an SMC press conference to promote an item of ME/CFS research has yet again led to some very inaccurate and unhelpful coverage of ME/CFS. I have communicated my concerns to members of the Board and to the SMC.

Noted and appreciated, though I personally would say the promotions are "damaging" rather than inaccurate and unhelpful, terms which are appeasing in nature.

Since expressing unhappiness is not having any impact what would it take for things to change? What sort of time-frame are we talking about?
 

RustyJ

Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'
Messages
1,200
Location
Mackay, Aust
I'm with Charles on this. There are really good people in the Collaborative, you just have to ignore the dodgy BACME ones (and I did at CMRC2015). Also, I *fully* understand the concerns about AfME, but I really like Sonya, having met her twice now. I love her energy. I imagine she and I don't agree on everything, but tbh I feel uneasy when I see her being dissed. Moreover, she is not Action for ME, she is not their history.

As an aside: having for the first time just seen a clip of a news prog in 1996 when Simon Wessely told the UK that ME was now known as CFS and had a psychological factor, I am amazed we have any biomedical initiatives at all. My 1983 illness, ME, demolished, just like that! This crystallises, of course, why UK journalists today have no idea at all what ME is and why we are in the state we are in. Sorry if this is off topic, although it's not - I guess everything is related here - but I really need to post this wee clip of Simon changing the narrative - I saw it on Twitter today via @MEawareness


I want to know who all those people are around the table discussing this CFS label!

Does it really matter that there are good people in the Collaborative, if their recommendations are ineffective? Horten is most insistent in his efforts to seek Wessely's direction--there is obviously a power play going on.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/92m09l9tq55pihh/Behind the Scenes - Research Collaborative.pdf?dl=0
 

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
It might be difficult to find a copy of the Charter just now as the AfME website service provider is in liquidation but here are the relevant clauses.





Note that these are not 'gagging clauses'. They allow valid criticism of research but not personal abuse or harassment.

Well if the SMC where to write something like this they would define everything as abuse and harassment.
 

Research 1st

Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.
Messages
768
Research Collaborative Board Members:
Dr Neil Abbott (MERUK)
Sonya Chowdhury (AfME)
Dr Esther Crawley (Reader in Child Health, Bristol University)
Dr Zoe Gotts (post-doctoral health researcher: sleep research, University of Northumbria)
Professor Stephen Holgate (Immunopharmacology, University of Southampton)
Professor Peter Little (Primary Care Research - University of Southampton)
Dr Alastair Miller (Infectious diseases, University of Liverpool)
Professor Julia Newton (Dean of Clinical Medicine, Newcastle University)
Professor Hugh Perry (Experimental Neuropathology, University of Southampton and Chair of Neurosciences Board at MRC)
Dr Charles Shepherd (MEA + other appointments)
Mary Jane Willows (AYME)

Perhaps those people on PR who want the MEA to quit (which we are NOT going to do) could suggest which ME/CFS charity would then take our place on the Board? As there would then be a vacancy on the Board…...

Thank you for the list and the very prompt reply.
 

WillowJ

คภภเє ɠรค๓թєl
Messages
4,940
Location
WA, USA
I think the better question is:

Isn't it past time for those who believe in a cognitive-behavioural interpretation to pack their bags and go home? Or apologize graciously and sincerely, and change their views and actions completely. Though I doubt the second happens from those who have been pushing it the hardest, so they will probably prefer to move on.
 
Messages
86
Location
East of England
Perhaps those people on PR who want the MEA to quit (which we are NOT going to do) could suggest which ME/CFS charity would then take our place on the Board? As there would then be a vacancy on the Board…...

I think this is an important point. The situation is not ideal, but it is not, in my view, irredeemable either (unlike PACE). The jury is out on AfME. If the MEA did leave who would then hold the SMC to account from the UKRC? And who would replace the MEA? Would it necessarily even be a charity?

If not the UKRC, then what could take its place, and who would have the power, influence and access to funding to set it up and commission biomedical research?

I know it's not a lot of consolation to say it could be worse (when we have had so much of worse and frankly terrible) and the EC's will always be pushing their agenda's. But they have a lot less impact when surrounded by the kind of research which was presented at the last conference.

If, despite the people on the board the UKRC put on a conference this year which had a psychosocial bias I would be much more worried. The MEA got it right on PACE and XMRV, and I hope they are in a position to influence the development of the UKRC. It will be interesting to see what will be presented at next year's conference.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
I think this is an important point. The situation is not ideal, but it is not, in my view, irredeemable either (unlike PACE). The jury is out on AfME. If the MEA did leave who would then hold the SMC to account from the UKRC? And who would replace the MEA? Would it necessarily even be a charity?

If not the UKRC, then what could take its place, and who would have the power, influence and access to funding to set it up and commission biomedical research?

I know it's not a lot of consolation to say it could be worse (when we have had so much of worse and frankly terrible) and the EC's will always be pushing their agenda's. But they have a lot less impact when surrounded by the kind of research which was presented at the last conference.

If, despite the people on the board the UKRC put on a conference this year which had a psychosocial bias I would be much more worried. The MEA got it right on PACE and XMRV, and I hope they are in a position to influence the development of the UKRC. It will be interesting to see what will be presented at next year's conference.

Those with long memories will recall that back in 2004, when the PACE trial was kicking off, the MEA was invited to be involved from the patient perspective

We met with the organisers at Barts Hospital in London but declined to do so because we had major concerns about what was going to happen with the PACE trial

In fact, we were so concerned that we organised a petition that was sent to the MRC and the Dept of Health

From ME Essential magazine at the time:


ME Essential: 'The MEA stand firm'

In the July issue of ME Essential (pages 3-4), we set out a list of criticisms
and concerns about the PACE trial - information that is still available on The MEA website at www.meassociation.org.uk.

On July 8, we met with Dr Peter White and his colleagues to discuss these points in more detail.

We have also put forward our reasons for opposing the trials at meetings with officials from the Department of Health and the Medical Research Council.

We have also agreed to publish (unedited) a written response to our concerns and criticism that has been prepared by Dr Peter White. The statement below summarises our current position in the light of all these events:

1. The MEA remains unconvinced that the PACE and FINE trials will provide any new and significant information about the benefits and risks of cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT), graded exercise therapy (GET) and pacing.

2. We continue to believe that the very large sums of government money being spent on these trials - over £4 million - could and should be better used to fund research which investigates the underlying physical causes of ME/CFS.

3. We welcome the support that Dr White and his colleagues have given towards The MEA campaign for more research into the physical causes of ME.

4. We also welcome the fact that many of the points we have made to the
organisers about the way in which the trials are going to be carried out have been acknowledged.

5. Despite our continuing reservations about the value of these trials, they are about to start. We therefore consider it is important for the whole ME community that they are properly monitored. We therefore wish to receive feedback - both positive and negative - from anyone who is asked to take part so that we can follow the progress and report back to you - our members.

6. The MEA intends to act in a totally independent manner in its monitoring of the trials. We are not part of any official group that is supervising, selecting patients, or collaborating with the trials.

7. The MEA will now concentrate on securing funding for physical research.

SUPPORT OUR LETTER:

Members who support our continued opposition to the PACE trial still have time to agree the letter we're sending to the Medical Research Council and the Government which appeared on page 2 of our last issue.

Send your message of support today to: xxxxx
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Thankyou for your reply and previous and ongoing criticism of PACE and LP.

However, are you prevented in any way from making criticism of studies from within the UKRC and did you personally sign anything agreeing to abide by such an agreement?

As I have already tried to make clear I am NOT prevented from making constructive criticism of research that has been carried out by a member of the RC

I have not signed any document that prevents me from doing so

Please note that I have made regular criticisms, including in medical publications, of the PACE trial while Professor Peter White was a member of the Board of the UKRC

The UKRC states that members of the RC (and those applying for membership) cannot get involved in any form of harassment of researchers. I have no desire to get involved in any form of harassment of researchers.
 
Messages
1,446
.
It depends on the interpretation of what 'harassment' entails.
The SMC stated that writing FOI requests for information and Parliamentary Questions were harassment.

Potential CMRC members, including charities, have to sign to agree not to 'harass' other members/researchers.
The SMC however can engage in skewing reporting on ME and the research by selecting (for example) psychiatrists and psychologists to review ME immune research
http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...on-and-the-science-media-centre-3-march-2015/

The CMRC charter needs a clause for the members to agree to not misrepresent ME biomedical research in the media, or anywhere else.
.
 
Last edited:

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
The CMRC charter needs a clause for the members to agree to not misrepresent ME biomedical research in the media, or anywhere else.
It would have to be very tightly written to stop them. If I recall correctly, the reports over the Hornig/Lipkin trial were very much masters of insinuation without really saying anything: the main problem was the selection of the scientists, rather than what was actually said. Far more problematic is their misrepresentation of PACE, which was actual bollocks.
 
Back