Thoughts on the Perrin Technique?

[DonPepe]

Don Pepe, thank you very much for this.

This is exactly what I needed to read.

Like you, I've gone through many 'alternative' treatments, never with any optimism, only through desperation.

Someone had read the recent Daily Telegraph article on Perrin, and sent it to me.

Even though I've been through this dozens of times, I find it hard to resist reading about the latest 'cure/treatment'.

Having gone back to googling 'perrin technique' for about the fourth day, I found your response.

And I agree with every word.

So, thanks very much for this. I don't use this forum and have no intention of doing so because I find 'searching for a cure' makes me feel much worse - and it's just not there. But I wanted to register, just so I could say thanks to you.

All the best,

Julian

Thanks for your kind words.

Once again, thanks.

 

[Oliver3]

I met perrin as he sortve lives in my neck of the woods. Had five months of treatment.
Mixed results.
There is definitely smthg wrong with the spine or the main lymph drainage because the first time I did the pinch the drain on the nose and lean in a forward position slightly in my hands, I felt the sympathetic drive shut off..which amazed me.
Whether that was through slightly realigning my spine or actually opening the drain properly or both I don't know.
Despite me not getting better, that nose pinch still remains a useful tool against the sympathetic drive.

Perrins a decent enough fella, slightly out of his depth if we're looking at it in terms of science I think. But he's not a scientist. He's a lymph specialist etc
I think he's found smthg that does work for some people to a greater or lesser extent but he doesn't know where to take it other than that.
Then again who does??? And kudos for him for being humble and astute enough to listen to his patients

 

[Iknovate]

Raymond Perrin documentary
An older Ray Perrin piece with some interesting tidbits (especially research done). I had already recently transitioned from deep muscle massages to lymphatic techniques. Will be seeing a therapist specifically trained in lymphatics in a couple of weeks.

 

[Iknovate]

Cort Johnson on Raymond Perrin
I've been highlighting sections of this piece and taking it to my practitioners. I also came up with the term neuro-lymphatic drainage. I spoke with my PCP and they said if I could find a therapist trained in same they would refer me.

 

[Wayne]

Remarkable Perrin technique testimonial on Health Rising:

Lymphatic drainage offers a glimmer of hope​

"I had a full course of the Perrin technique from Raymond Perrin in the 1990s, along with my teenage daughter who was also diagnosed with ME.​

​

It was the first glimmer of hope that this disorder was not going to confine us to our beds for the rest of our lives, as our GP had promised us.​

​

Before we saw Raymond we had tried everything that was available in those days, but both of us were still gravely ill. (We found some level of relief from joint inflammation from 3g daily of evening primrose oil with fish oils).​

​

Raymond identified many of signs lymphatic engorgement, indicating an active immune system that was engaged with fighting something. Lymph nodes were painful and inflammed, base of the skull excruciating, drenching sweats, all over body pain, no stamina, PEM, insomnia, cognitive dysfunction, syncope etc.​

​

The Perrin technique was to be carried out daily at home, as well as clinic sessions that started off weekly, then fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, then annual MOT checkups.​

​

Daily at home it consisted of lymphatic massage of head, neck and back; hot and cold ice packs on the spine; specific 'marching' on the spot exercises; very strict adherence to a clean eating plan with no stimulants whatsoever (no point in consuming the very toxic substances we were working hard to eliminate). We continued this regimen even away from home, Christmas etc.​

​

The routine was exhausting, but we focused on completing our Perrin technique as the top priority everyday. There were three of us in the family then, and we helped each other complete what ever needed to be done. Being so ill for so long (6 years) had devastated our lives, so getting well again was our 100% goal between us.​

​

And it worked!​

​

As Raymond predicted, the first three months were horrible, as accumulated waste products were mobilised and eliminated. Only then could we start to make any recovery. And over the next 2 years we did.​

​

Ten years after first falling ill, we were active again and back at work/ uni. Independently solo-backpacking around Asia, India, Australia; White water rafting; Skiing; scuba-diving etc. All the things we had put on our wishlist when we were too ill to barely crawl to the bathroom and relied on my younger daughter to put food by the bed for us before she left for school in the morning.​

​

But it is no cure.​

The ME has never left.​

​

Some things were permanently eliminated: the pain of clothing touching my body had gone and never returned. Lymphatic engorgement in my breast went too - I had been unable to embrace my children. The inflamed base of the skull only returns when I get a serious infection now, instead of 24/7. I lost three stone of weird fat, back to my pre-ME size 10(uk) clothes.​

​

We learned how to pace, plan and measure energy levels, so that we could take part in 'normal' living, being sociable, going to work, completing studies, without anyone knowing, or having to explain to anyone.​

​

The clean living had to be maintained, or relapse was round the corner.​

​

Emotional stress also took its toll and had to be factored and calmed with meditation, self-hypnosis. But life was good and we could live in the outside world again.​

​

Sadly I contracted typhoid, that the doctor failed to treat properly. I connected again with one of Raymond's practitioners and managed to recover, but it had depleted me and I had to do the daily routine without any help, as my daughters had left home by then.​

​

Back on the road to recovery, back at work and retraining in NHS the manditory HepB vaccine took me down.​

​

It was too far to travel to Raymond's clinic, my local Perrin practitioner was a fraud, so I could not get the full benefit, even though I tried my best with the technique at home.​

​

Then a bad bout with Lyme & Babesiosis has landed me back in bed now, with no carer/ help and no access to a competent Perrin practitioner.​

​

The summary of this 35 year journey is: Yes, the Perrin technique is effective.​

​

- It is not a cure, but it can significantly remove the debilitating symptoms to permit active life again.​

- You need to strictly follow it to the letter to get the full benefit.​

- You will need help to manage the physicality of the full treatment and adherence to clean, healthy living.​

​

If I had the physical resources today to access the Perrin technique, as I did in the 1990s, I would be enjoying an active life again."​

 

[keepswimming]

@Wayne your post reminded me that I never updated my experience with Perrin, so I will do now.

I've been doing the Perrin Technique since January 2024 and I can say that while it hasn't been a cure, it has most definitely led to improvement.

The first few months were brutal, I had horrible side effects. Nausea, headaches, my back and arms were covered in enormous spots. Skin rashes, diarrhoea, insomnia, increased fatigue. Along the way I also experienced a mild reoccurance of EBV symptoms (the virus that triggered my ME) and a mild case of shingles. It also triggered bad anxiety which lasted some months until I had a course of CBT to help me.

However after a few months I started seeing improvements, they gradually increased, and I am so glad I didn't give up.

I'm now 15 months in. While ME still very much affects me, my quality of life is so much better due to the improvements I've seen.

Socially, I am able to get out and see people more - I calculate it's around 3x as much compared to before I started the treatment. Yesterday I went to the theatre with my Mum for the first time in years! I can stay out longer, and do things more days running.

PEM is reduced in severity and duration. If I do too much now, normally one day resting up is all I need to get back to baseline (compared to at least three days before) and the symptoms are not as bad.

I'm able to potter around the house more, jobs are getting done that I couldn't manage in the past - in fact I just finished clearing out our attic (paced of course, but still a job I didn't feel able to tackle before!)

I still have to pace myself carefully, and spend plenty of time every day in bed - when I've pushed myself too hard while testing the boundaries my body has let me know about it! But compared to where I was before the treatment my life is so much better.

My treatment prognosis was 18 months to 2 years, so I am hoping I may still see a little more improvement - I will update here if I do.

I fully accept that this is only my personal experience, ME is a complex illness and what helps one person may not help another. But it has certainly helped me, so I want to share my experience in case it helps someone else out there.

 

[Wayne]

As Raymond predicted, the first three months were horrible, as accumulated waste products were mobilised and eliminated.

The first few months were brutal, I had horrible side effects. Nausea, headaches, my back and arms were covered in enormous spots. Skin rashes, diarrhoea, insomnia, increased fatigue.

Hi @keepswimming -- Wow, that's quite a story you just shared. Amazing how similar your description of how miserable your first few months was to the testimonial I posted. I was wondering if you've ever heard of an "energy medicine" technique called the "Spinal Flush".

After I started doing the spinal flush on myself daily (which I still do), I noticed that my sinuses seemed to clear almost every time I did it. My Osteopathic doctor said it was most likely because there are so many lymphatic drainage areas along the spine. In the video I linked to above, she specifically mentions lymphatic massage.

I did a post a few years ago that touched on my doing the spinal flush, and also described how I discovered and began doing a thoracic extension exercise. I think I'll just post some of that below, as I think it fits in nicely with this thread.
.......................

I feel I've made some discoveries recently that have improved both my sleep and sinuses, and that I've been meaning to share here on PR. . -- I've had persistent neck and back problems for years, and have gotten into the habit of doing various kinds of self-massage to help with that. I've long noticed when I massage up and down my back along the spine, my sinuses clear up.

Essentially, I lay on one side, and as best I can, use my free arm to massage up and down my spine with my thumb and fingers. I once asked my ND why I get such consistent sinus clearing results from this technique. He said it was likely because there are major lymphatic drainage areas located along the spine. -- Search "Spinal Flush" on YouTube, and you'll find lots of videos.

I recently started doing some thoracic extension techniques, and discovered the same phenomenon. One morning, my sinuses were uncharacteristically stuffy, and I placed a foam pad beneath my thoracic spine area. Within 5-10 minutes, I was breathing incredibly clearly. And I felt way more relaxed as well, as this technique is VERY relaxing. I've since discovered that if I awaken in the night with the sense I'm not going to get back to sleep, if I put that foam pad underneath my thoracic area, I can usually get back to sleep in 5-10 minutes.

Regarding the thoracic techniques, this :37 second video shows two ways a rolled up towel or foam piece can be used for the upper thoracic area.

Thoracic Towel Stretch

Below is a link to a 5-min. video which goes into more detail on how to use a towel or foam piece to loosen up the upper back:

The Simplest and Most Effective Exercise For Thoracic Extension

For a really good complimentary exercise to this one, I feel the pelvis stabilization techniques described in this 5-Min. video (Natural Pelvis Reset) really helped my lower back a LOT, and most likely helped my neck area as much as the towel exercise (I use foam instead of a towel). I think these two techniques work really well together.

Since starting these a few weeks ago, my Orthostotic Intolerance has noticeably improved, and my overall energy and resiliency has also notably improved. I suspect I've gotten improvements similar to what Dr. Perrin, D.O. noticed in his CFS patients, most of whom had classic flat back syndrome in their thoracic area.

I've researched a number of structural issues over the years, and my current focus on the complimentary thoracic and pelvis techniques has probably paid as much or more (probably more) dividends compared to anything I've tried before. And I've gotten a LOT of improvements from various things I've done in the past, including Upper Cervical Chiropractic and AtlasProfilax.

One other thing you and others experiencing insomnia may want to consider is whether the psoas muscle could be interfering with sleep. In the thread linked below, a man describes how his sleep was sooo bad, he only got about 2 hours per night. He eventually discovered that it was a tight psoas muscle that was causing most of his inability to sleep.

Fibromyalgia Misdiagnosis -- ME/CFS Symptoms Traced to Tight Psoas Muscle

THIS POST I made on the same thread also expounds on this topic.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

I;ve been working on my stagnant lymphatic system for some time now, in an ad hoc fashion.

I admire those of you who can systematically and consistently deploy self corrective actions which improve symptoms.

Work on means I do some Perrins work.

the first 108 moves in Wu Style Tai chi are lymphatic drainage and thoracic extending. I was once capable of executing the full 1700 moves. I can no longer physically do so.

- my right side is considerably more stagnant than my left.

My right eye will become acutely inflamed when I work on right side lymph. This is presumably neurotoxins, although my eye doctors won't treat it.

It is no longer responding with acute pain and swelling and throbbing. That has improved.

Suggesting: keep at it.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

canot have massages for example (like a strong Thai massage), as I get bad PEM - perhaps 'toxins' are released, though I suppose a few things could be going on.

I can't tolerate massages. Maybe a little bit of neck work, a few minutes is Ok. But nothing major.

Can't tolerate acupuncture: a full session would put me in a hospital. I would go in for 15 minute treatments with about 10 needles max. My acupuncturist, a true expert, has never seen anyone as sensitive as I am.

Sweats.

All these things move stagnant lymph and mobilize toxins and then we are sicker instead of better.

 

[Wayne]

My right eye will become acutely inflamed when I work on right side lymph. This is presumably neurotoxins, although my eye doctors won't treat it.

Hi @Rufous McKinney -- I topically apply a mixture of DMSO and magnesium oil on my eyelids on a daily basis, which I believe is enormously beneficial for eye health. If there were neurotoxins in the area, I suspect the Vit. C, bentonite clay, and lotion I apply to my eyes afterwards would "sop them up". Just a thought.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

lotion I apply to my eyes afterwards would "sop them up". Just a thought.

fascinating.

Sometimes my eyes get really watery/blurry. Like pouring. To me it feels associated with swelling and pressure. If I reduce pressure, the blurry and watery can stop.

And sometimes I'll just rub them and I notice it's like whatever I"m rubbing is now burning and stinging my eyes. It feels really acidic, perhaps?

This seems very strange to me. Your comments- suggests I should really think more about this.

DMSO on eye lids? If you've lived to tell the tale, maybe I'll try it. I don' t have magnesium oil. I do have some Pascolite.

@Wayne: so first you use DMSO etc, then later you use clay? Is this described elsewhere?

 

[Rufous McKinney]

on a daily basis,

I thoroughly enjoy your posts. They are extremely helpful.

But I thought I'd also add that you make me laugh.

You're so busy. Deploying things. Kudos for effort. I hope you find some time to relax.

 

[Wayne]

This seems very strange to me. Your comments- suggests I should really think more about this.

Hey @Rufous McKinney -- If you want to do a little more reading on some of my eye health experiences, check out the following thread from about 10 years ago. My are are still in much better shape today than they were in the months preceding my rosemary eyewash experiments.

Stronger, More Resilient Eyes From Rosemary Eyewash​

@Wayne: so first you use DMSO etc, then later you use clay? Is this described elsewhere?

I don't believe I've described it elsewhere, so I'll do it here. I use equal parts of DMSO and magnesium oil and mix with both hands. I usually put some on my lower back first because it's a bit of a problem area for me. It always feels better afterwards because DMSO improves circulation and reduces pain and inflammation.

I then close my eyes and rub the palms of my hands on my eyelids. I kind of do the rest of my face and neck at the same time, because I know it's good for just about everything. I then put 1/4 tsp of bentonite clay in the palm of my hand, and add 1/4 tsp of sodium ascorbate powder. I then put a small amount of lotion on top them, and mix them all together.

I then rub that over my lower back and torso. When there's much less in my hands, I then close my eyelids again, and apply it directly onto the eyelids. I first got this idea when reading about something called Vitamin C paste, where you mix sodium ascorbate with water, and apply it topically for various skin, joint, or muscle conditions. I just improvised and use lotion instead of water. It's easier to manage than when using water.

The lotion mixture works well because both DMSO and magnesium can be slightly irritating to the skin, as in giving it kind of a prickling sensation. Applying the Vitamin C paste immediately soothes that prickling sensation.

Regarding the bentonite clay. I read once that when the Chernobyl nuclear site exploded, they were sending in workers in very specialized hazmat suits, but they were still showing they were absorbing high amounts of radioactivity. They apparently started applying bentonite clay topically before getting into their suits, and the radioactivity readings were dramatically reduced.

I thought about all the ubiquitous EMFs and who knows what all that's floating around in the air every day, and wondered if applying bentonite clay topically might be helpful in protecting against some of the noxious effects of this "gunk". As soon as I tried it, I noticed an energetic shift the very first day. So I do it pretty regularly, usually daily--but sometimes not. Not always so diligent.

 

[keepswimming]

@Wayne interesting info about the spinal flush and thoracic exercises, they certainly seem to be along the same lines as Perrin. I will look into them in more detail and might try them out, thank you.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

as in giving it kind of a prickling sensation.

I noticed a sort of itchy sensation when I first applied DMSO. Its not a big problem, and I notice the itchy less

(I use it with castor oil on some swollen lymph glands)

 

[Wayne]

I noticed a sort of itchy sensation

Not an unusual reaction. I don't notice much, but putting a little lotion on afterwards feels soothing. I might try some castor oil and see how that feels.