Thoughts on the Perrin Technique?

[Faith2007]

I suppose I'm beginning to feel a little sceptical about Perrin, and holistic treatment as a whole. They feel nefarious, thinly veiled extensions of 'positive thinking' therapies, with a fat price tag in tow.

So I'm glad to hear you are getting benefits. That is much more difficult in the USA.

I understand your skepticism. The issue is that certain treatments work for certain ME/CFS patients, and don't work for others. And we have limited money to work with and have to pick and choose what we wish to try.

Going to doctors with a western medicine background that also use alternative therapies is what has helped me most. My ME/CFS specialists have been those type of doctors and refer me out for alternative therapies, since they are in another state than me, which they think might help, while providing necessary testing, prescriptions, and supplements. Some people call these type of doctors functional doctors.

And I have two more doctors that fall into that category that don't know about ME/CFS, but provide treatment I need. I was also referred to a physical therapist trained in CFS, which really helped after I recovered a little from getting COVID-19. And a chiropractor has been invaluable to me for pain. Finding the right doctors is no easy task, and I'm still not convinced I have all the doctors that could be useful to me. I believe this illness requires more than a one doctor approach. Where I live, most doctors either haven't heard of ME/CFS or have no idea what to do with a patient that has it, which limits the doctors I can use to help me.

 

[Guwop2]

Interview with Raymond Perrin here (of the Perrin Tehnique).

I'd be curious if any science folk here have any views on the soundness of his theory

 

[keepswimming]

Hi, I'm four months into the full Perrin Technique program, however I started doing the home exercises five months prior to that. I am happy to share my experience so far.

I have always been very sceptical about any kind of paid treatment program, however a post on here made me look into the Perrin Technique. Initially I decided to buy his book and try the home exercises.

The exercises appear to be very gentle on the surface - so much so that I doubted they could do anything! However I learnt from reading the experiences of others on the Facebook group that you can experience toxic drainage symptoms, so I decided to build up slowly in case I reacted.

As soon as I introduced the massage I started to experience toxic drainage symptoms - my tonsils would swell within minutes, and I also experienced nausea, along with spots on my shoulders. This encouraged me that something was happening.

Over the next five months I started to see some small but significant improvements. My step count increased by 30% compared to the year before, and my recovery times improved - activities that would have taken three days to recover from only took one. I also became aware that I was able to do a little more than before.

This made me decide it was worth investing in the full treatment, I started in January. Most people get a lot of side effects during the first three months of treatment and that was definitely the case for me. I had nausea, hives, spots, upset stomach, sore throats, headaches, insomnia, an increase of fatigue. Emotional reactions too - tearful and anxious. At week 6 I experienced a mild return of EBV symptoms, which was my trigger virus. At week 11 I developed mild shingles.

From April onwards the side effects started improving, and I believe I am now starting to see some improvements. My step count is increasing and I am more active. I have tracked my fatigue (a simple daily score out of 10) for years and those scores are improving. People close to me have commented that I seem brighter. I am starting to feel a little frustrated and bored by my current routine, however pacing and convalescence is an important part of the treatment so I am forcing myself to keep resting for the time being.

I hope that helps, I am still in the early days of the treatment at the moment, but that's my experience so far.

 

[emmablondevoyage]

The Perrin Technique has helped me soooo much!!! I also have suspected CCI which blocks the drainage of lymph from the head so that might be why it helps me so much. but you need to make sure you find a good practitioner. I've seen a lot of different ones and some are better than others. For London / Bucks / Hertfordshire area I recommend Rakhee Mediratta

I feel like yes there is a 'type' of ME who benefits from it, if you have lymphatic drainage issues which are causing your ME symptoms then you could benefit from it but if you don't have lymphatic issues and something else if causing your symptoms then in my personal opinion, you won't benefit as much

 

[Mary]

Occasionally, I get twinges in my breasts, and lymphatic massage always gets rid of the twinges. I'm not sure if all lymphatic massage is Perrin or not.

All lymphatic massage is not the Perrin Technique. It also involves cranial sacral therapy. You can read more about it here: https://theperrintechnique.com/
and Dr. Perrin has written a couple of books about it too. There are workshops where practitioners who are trained in lymphatic drainage and cranial sacral therapy can go to learn the specific Perrin techniques. You can find out about the workshops on the above website.

When I first read about the Perrin Technique several years ago, I was not that impressed. But the more I read now, the more I am (impressed). I think it's definitely worth exploring.

 

[Guwop2]

Hi, I'm four months into the full Perrin Technique program, however I started doing the home exercises five months prior to that. I am happy to share my experience so far.

I have always been very sceptical about any kind of paid treatment program, however a post on here made me look into the Perrin Technique. Initially I decided to buy his book and try the home exercises.

The exercises appear to be very gentle on the surface - so much so that I doubted they could do anything! However I learnt from reading the experiences of others on the Facebook group that you can experience toxic drainage symptoms, so I decided to build up slowly in case I reacted.

As soon as I introduced the massage I started to experience toxic drainage symptoms - my tonsils would swell within minutes, and I also experienced nausea, along with spots on my shoulders. This encouraged me that something was happening.

Over the next five months I started to see some small but significant improvements. My step count increased by 30% compared to the year before, and my recovery times improved - activities that would have taken three days to recover from only took one. I also became aware that I was able to do a little more than before.

This made me decide it was worth investing in the full treatment, I started in January. Most people get a lot of side effects during the first three months of treatment and that was definitely the case for me. I had nausea, hives, spots, upset stomach, sore throats, headaches, insomnia, an increase of fatigue. Emotional reactions too - tearful and anxious. At week 6 I experienced a mild return of EBV symptoms, which was my trigger virus. At week 11 I developed mild shingles.

From April onwards the side effects started improving, and I believe I am now starting to see some improvements. My step count is increasing and I am more active. I have tracked my fatigue (a simple daily score out of 10) for years and those scores are improving. People close to me have commented that I seem brighter. I am starting to feel a little frustrated and bored by my current routine, however pacing and convalescence is an important part of the treatment so I am forcing myself to keep resting for the time being!

I hope that helps, I am still in the early days of the treatment at the moment, but that's my experience so far.

Very helpful, yes. thanks for posting.
Can i ask, how did you determine which Perrin therapist you should see? There are quite a few in and around London with varying degrees of experinece. Some are more tied into holistic, quasi-spiritual ideology, others are more scientific in their approach and are coming from more conventional Osteopathy/Sports therapy angles. Just curious how much expereinc eyour therapist had and what their focus was?

 

[keepswimming]

Very helpful, yes. thanks for posting.
Can i ask, how did you determine which Perrin therapist you should see? There are quite a few in and around London with varying degrees of experinece. Some are more tied into holistic, quasi-spiritual ideology, others are more scientific in their approach and are coming from more conventional Osteopathy/Sports therapy angles. Just curious how much expereinc eyour therapist had and what their focus was?

To be honest it was quite simple for me as there are only two nearby, and one wasn't taking on new patients! My practitioner is quite newly trained, she'd been doing the Perrin technique for six months when I started, however she has thirty years experience as a chiropractor, cranial sacral therapist, massage therapist and life coach. She also works alongside the more experienced Perrin practitioner who was fully booked. I've found her really knowledgeable and supportive, I feel confident in her methods.

 

[Mary]

I suppose I'm beginning to feel a little sceptical about Perrin, and holistic treatment as a whole. They feel nefarious, thinly veiled extensions of 'positive thinking' therapies, with a fat price tag in tow.

I've been doing a lot of reading about the Perrin Technique, on-line and in one of Dr. Perrin's books, and nowhere does he talk about "positive thinking" as being necessary for recovery. His theory is that our lymphatic drainage system is screwed up (to put it scientifically! ) They've found lymph vessels in our brains, and the rest of the body of course, and according to Perrin, ME/CFS patients lymph system flows backwards, I believe, causing our brains and everything to be bathed in toxins. The cause seems to be a combination of toxins, oftentimes structural damage of some type in the back or neck, maybe a virus also, and/ or other stressors, but the whole combo leads up to our lymph/toxin problems. I'm not explaining it very well, so I'd urge you to do some reading on this - don't quote me. This site can give you a brief overview: https://theperrintechnique.com/

And from what I read he is getting good results. I know - a lot of people say that when they don't know what they're talking about, but he seems legit.

I've been working with Dr. Ruby Tam (see this post above) via email primarily and she encouraged me to find an OT or PT who does both lymphatic drainage and cranial sacral therapy and then to get a referral from my doctor for treatment of lymphadema - which he agreed to do, and in fact he did do. He's an osteopath. He could actually learn how to do the specific Perrin Technique only Medicare would not pay for the initial 12 weekly visits for him as he's a doctor, but Medicare should pay for the visits to an OT or PT. So it's a work in progress but looks like it probably is going to happen - being as positive as I can be here!

So please don't write off the Perrin Technique as being crap or lumping it with the biopsychosocial model of illness. I'll post more when I actually get to experience the therapy. And I do have a history of rather significant exposure to toxins (chemical solvents) and also have experienced a lot of detoxing. It's a long story and I won't go into it here. Anyways, we'll see!

ETA: One last thing - you're supposed to be able to tell fairly quickly if the Perrin technique will help you as many if not most will experience detox symptoms rather quickly. Many will feel quite a bit worse initially and it can take a few months to start feeling better. I'm actually detoxing today from taking Cellfood - but that's another story! But this tells me I still have a toxic load of some sort I'm dealing with.

 

[Jyoti]

Keep us posted, Mary. This is terrifically interesting to me, and I am hopeful it will help you, and many of us. I have to say--I recently had a lymphatic drainage massage that was the essence of butterfly wings--the most delicate and gentle touch imaginable.

And I was soooo sick the next day. It was impressive! Definite detox.

I have been doing self-massage a la Perrin adjacent practitioners for about two weeks each morning, and while I can't say that I have had systemic improvements, things have not gotten worse AND a lot of the pain I have had FOREVER in my chest and arms is diminished dramatically. It seems promising!

 

[JinZ]

I've been doing a lot of reading about the Perrin Technique, on-line and in one of Dr. Perrin's books, and nowhere does he talk about "positive thinking" as being necessary for recovery. His theory is that our lymphatic drainage system is screwed up (to put it scientifically! ) They've found lymph vessels in our brains, and the rest of the body of course, and according to Perrin, ME/CFS patients lymph system flows backwards, I believe, causing our brains and everything to be bathed in toxins. The cause seems to be a combination of toxins, oftentimes structural damage of some type in the back or neck, maybe a virus also, and/ or other stressors, but the whole combo leads up to our lymph/toxin problems. I'm not explaining it very well, so I'd urge you to do some reading on this - don't quote me. This site can give you a brief overview: https://theperrintechnique.com/

And from what I read he is getting good results. I know - a lot of people say that when they don't know what they're talking about, but he seems legit.

I've been working with Dr. Ruby Tam (see this post above) via email primarily and she encouraged me to find an OT or PT who does both lymphatic drainage and cranial sacral therapy and then to get a referral from my doctor for treatment of lymphadema - which he agreed to do, and in fact he did do. He's an osteopath. He could actually learn how to do the specific Perrin Technique only Medicare would not pay for the initial 12 weekly visits for him as he's a doctor, but Medicare should pay for the visits to an OT or PT. So it's a work in progress but looks like it probably is going to happen - being as positive as I can be here!

So please don't write off the Perrin Technique as being crap or lumping it with the biopsychosocial model of illness. I'll post more when I actually get to experience the therapy. And I do have a history of rather significant exposure to toxins (chemical solvents) and also have experienced a lot of detoxing. It's a long story and I won't go into it here. Anyways, we'll see!

ETA: One last thing - you're supposed to be able to tell fairly quickly if the Perrin technique will help you as many if not most will experience detox symptoms rather quickly. Many will feel quite a bit worse initially and it can take a few months to start feeling better. I'm actually detoxing today from taking Cellfood - but that's another story! But this tells me I still have a toxic load of some sort I'm dealing with.

Dr Tam is great and she was extremely helpful in guiding me. I wish she charged my Medicare for her time, it is extraordinary she is providing free service as a Doctor surviving off donation.

Is your Osteopath in Los Angeles? My goal is to return to LA once I recover enough. I am hoping there will be more practitioner in that area by then. There is a few doctor here in NYC that are awesome and takes Medicare/Private insurance for OMT/Perrin. Medicaid is not covered.

I am glad this is being discuss more as I needed this ten years ago.

FYI: I'll try to do a monthly update on my OMT/Perrin progress. Do not go to page 1, most of those post are more than 5 years + old haha.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/hi-from-socal.58926/page-2

 

[Mary]

@Jyoti - I think that's impressive that you've had a lot of pain diminish dramatically and rather quickly too! Pain has never been one of my symptoms but I know it is for many ME/CFS patients.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say:

a la Perrin adjacent practitioners

because from what I can tell, the Perrin techniques differs from standard lymphatic drainage in that Dr. Perrin believes that the problem with ME/CFS is not just an overload of toxins (which of course is bad enough all by itself) but that our lymphatic flow has been reversed, thus ensuring that we'll never get better, and the Perrin technique is designed to overcome that - to help get things flowing properly and it seems it can take from 1 - 3 years in general to get this done. And again, I'd urge everyone don't quote me on this - please do your own reading.

So from what I understand, standard lymphatic drainage would not be enough. The therapy has got to be designed to help get the lymph flowing properly. In any event, I think it's very telling you had such a strong detox reaction plus your pain has diminished - I think those are all good signs! And I will post more as it is revealed . . . (couldn't resist that last line! )

 

[Mary]

Dr Tam is great and she was extremely helpful in guiding me. I wish she charged my Medicare for her time, it is extraordinary she is providing free service as a Doctor surviving off donation.

I could not agree with you more here! She is going to talk to my doctor (osteopath) via phone when I see him next week, and also wants to talk to my OT or PT, whichever she is, who I will see in July (thanks to Dr. Tam's urgings and instructions). Dr. Tam is going to do all this at no charge. She seems to be on a one-woman quest to help ME/CFS patients - someone said she is a saint and I agree! She's answered my emails quickly and even called me at one point to help me.

@JinZ - I'm no longer in California, I need to change my avatar where it says I'm in southern California, where I lived for most of my life. I've been in Texas (of all places!) for two years, about as far from California (in many ways) as you can get, but it's a good thing, has to do with my kids.

I'll try to do a monthly update on my OMT/Perrin progress.

This would be great - I would look forward to your updates!

 

[keepswimming]

@Mary good explanations, you're right the Perrin Technique is definitely not a psychological treatment. The practioners are osteopaths and chiropractors not psychologists, and the treatment is purely physical.

You're also correct that it is a different method to normal lymphatic massage, due to Dr Perrin's theory that there is a backflow of lymph in people with ME, my understanding is the lymph flow is directed to a different area of the chest than a standard lymphatic drainage massage. His book does contain full instructions for the technique, a professional might be able to follow them.

Most people get worse at the beginning of the treatment, the book says you should see side effects or some kind of change within the first twelve weeks, if you don't it might not be worth continuing with the treatment.

I will update on my experience too

 

[emmablondevoyage]

Very helpful, yes. thanks for posting.
Can i ask, how did you determine which Perrin therapist you should see? There are quite a few in and around London with varying degrees of experinece. Some are more tied into holistic, quasi-spiritual ideology, others are more scientific in their approach and are coming from more conventional Osteopathy/Sports therapy angles. Just curious how much expereinc eyour therapist had and what their focus was?

I have seen maybe 7/8 Perrin practitioners and the best I've seen is definitely Rakhee Mediratta, so I recommend her for London and surrounding areas (North London like Bucks / Herts) or anyone who she has trained who works for her practice!

Here is her website

https://www.rakheeosteopathylondon.co.uk/

 

[Guwop2]

I have seen maybe 7/8 Perrin practitioners and the best I've seen is definitely Rakhee Mediratta, so I recommend her for London and surrounding areas (North London like Bucks / Herts) or anyone who she has trained who works for her practice!

Here is her website

https://www.rakheeosteopathylondon.co.uk/

I did look at her but she was the most expensive out of all that I contacted, morethan twice as much as some (and I spoke to 4 therapists). Perhaps the higher price means shes very good, although all have been trained by Dr Perrin himself so theres an equal footing with regards to that training at least. The one I liked best from the consulation chat happened to be the cheapest, perhaps because the treatment centre wasnt in central london.

 

[Guwop2]

I've been doing a lot of reading about the Perrin Technique, on-line and in one of Dr. Perrin's books, and nowhere does he talk about "positive thinking" as being necessary for recovery. His theory is that our lymphatic drainage system is screwed up (to put it scientifically! )

You're right, 'positive thinking' doesnt figure in his treatment programme, it was because i had just had spoken to a few Perrin practitioners, one doubled-up as a life-coach (which made me wary - he had the bedside manner of one too), and another said they worked with a London-based centre that treated ME with what appeared to be CBT style therapies, so yes no 'positive thinking' per-se, but it seemed notable to me that a few of these Perrin practionioners seemed to be downstream from Pos. Think, or moved in a similar orbit to it, which raised my hackles. Also, the primacy of removing 'Toxins' from the through lymph system I understand is scientifically disputed, but im no expert, it was just a feeling I had that it's a fringe practice.
Having said all that I will almost certainly be seeing a Perrin therapist, despite my skepticism, and perhaps thats a good attitude to have? Brings to mind a quote from Slavoj Zizek regarding Physicist Niels Bohr:

“...surprised at seeing a horse-shoe above the door of Bohr’s country house, a fellow scientist exclaimed that he did not share the superstitious belief that horse-shoes kept evil spirits away, to which Bohr snapped back, ‘I don’t believe in it either. I have it there because I was told that it works even when one doesn’t believe in it’.

I'd like it if the Perrin Technique worked, even if I dont believe in lymphatic drainage.​

 

[Wayne]

he remaining problems are the rigidity in the thoracic region

Hi @crussher -- About five years ago I started doing some thoracic extension techniques, and found them very helpful. One morning, my sinuses were uncharacteristically stuffy, and I placed a foam pad beneath my thoracic spine area. Within 5-10 minutes, I was breathing incredibly clearly.

And I felt way more relaxed as well, as this technique is VERY relaxing. I've since discovered that if I awaken in the night with the sense I'm not going to get back to sleep, if I put that foam pad underneath my thoracic area, I can usually get back to sleep in 5-10 minutes.

Regarding the thoracic techniques, this :37 second video shows two ways a rolled up towel or foam piece can be used for the upper thoracic area.

Thoracic Towel Stretch

Below is a link to a 5-min. video which goes into more detail on how to use a towel or foam piece to loosen up the upper back:

The Simplest and Most Effective Exercise For Thoracic Extension

For a really good complimentary exercise to this one, I feel the pelvis stabilization techniques described in this 5-Min. video (Natural Pelvis Reset) really helped my lower back a LOT, and most likely helped my neck area as much as the towel exercise (I use foam instead of a towel). I think these two techniques work really well together.

Since starting these, my Orthostotic Intolerance has noticeably improved, and my overall energy and resiliency has also notably improved. I suspect I've gotten improvements similar to what Dr. Perrin, D.O. noticed in his CFS patients, most of whom had classic flat back syndrome in their thoracic area.

I've researched a number of structural issues over the years, and my current focus on the complimentary thoracic and pelvis techniques has probably paid as much or more (probably more) dividends compared to anything I've tried before. And I've gotten a LOT of improvements from various things I've done in the past, including Upper Cervical Chiropractic and AtlasProfilax.

Here's a link to another structural issue that can be in play with ME/CFS:

Fibromyalgia Misdiagnosis -- ME/CFS Symptoms Traced to Tight Psoas Muscle

 

[keepswimming]

@Guwop2 yes I think that's personality differences rather than the program itself. I would have really struggled if someone had talked like that too, but my practitioner never gave me that vibe, I liked her from the start. Actually I've had some strong emotional reactions to the treatment (not uncommon from what I can gather) and her advice was just to let it all out rather than try to repress it, so I've had a lot of tears in the last months!

I think that much of Perrin's method is based on a theory that has not yet been proven, rather than definite science. However I must say from my reactions I'm convinced it's working to remove toxins in myself at least.

I was very sceptical to start with, it's why I started with the home treatment alone, if I hadn't seen reactions and results from that I would never have tried the full treatment. And I still find it hard to believe it will make a huge amount of difference! But what I've seen so far convinces me that it's worth a try. Also, I think it is worth every penny even for the small improvements I've seen so far - the reduction I've had in PEM times might not sound like much but it actually made a huge difference to my quality of life.

 

[Jyoti]

I talked to a medical intuitive yesterday, in relation to relatively new symptoms of increased cranial pressure. His take: lymph flowing back into the head, creating pressure and toxicity. I swear--- I didn't say anything about Perrin to him!

Sometimes you get the message from every direction. I guess I am going to contact Dr. Tam!

 

[Mary]

it was just a feeling I had that it's a fringe practice.

Yeah, I agree that the Perrin Technique is a "fringe' practice - it's certainly not in the mainstream panoply of "treatments" which mainly do seem to consist of telling us to think positively and exercise our way to health! It was only a few years ago that this was the standard line of the U.S. CDC and Mayo Clinic to name a few (and taking prescription ADs of course). ME/CFS I think is considered a fringe diagnosis by most medical practitioners. We don't have a biomarker, they don't quite think it's real, again all in our heads. We've all read the horror stories of hospitalized ME/CFS patients being maltreated by doctors who insist they just need to get out of bed and start eating. People have died from this "treatment".

For those who doubt the reality of toxins in our bodies, what about hangovers? They're nothing more than our bodies being overwhelmed by alcohol, a toxin. And drinking too much too quickly will kill you and drinking too much in general will damage the liver. We all know this. And when one's body is able to excrete or neutralize the alcohol, then the hangover (poisoning) goes away.

We all know about the dangers of lead, used to be in paint, and children primarily suffering brain damage and other damage from lead poisoning - a very real and dangerous toxin. This is not fringe or something one has to "believe" in.

And the pesticide Roundup has been used everywhere for decades - and it's finally been found to be carcinogenic - why did it take so long? And all the other pesticides on our foods etc. It's not a matter of belief.

I think there is a very real and unfortunate conflict of interest between the study of toxins and their effect on the human body, and the pharmaceutical/chemical companies. In the early 1900s our medical schools and their curriculum were essentially taken over by Rockefeller and Carnegie (see https://digitalcommons.rockefeller.edu/the-rockefellers/37/) (I first read about this several years ago in World Without Cancer .)

I believe the history of the AMA and the chemical companies goes a long way towards explaining why nutrition and herbs and vitamins are all considered "alternative" - hence don't seem quite legitimate - compared to patent medicine. And perhaps helps explain why we're not more educated about the very real dangers of toxins and how our lymph systems and livers of course work so hard to try to eliminate/neutralize them.

( fwiw, World Without Cancer is primarily about vitamin 17, or laetrile, and cancer. In the 1970's a leading cancer researcher at Sloan Kettering proved the efficacy of laetrile in the treatment of cancer, only this finding was suppressed by SK board members who had a vested interest in pharmaceuticals/chemical companies. The excellent documentary Second Opinion: Laetrile at Sloan Kettering tells this story.)