This helps me,,, but why -- [Cold showers/baths]

[Booble]

Going into the swimming pool makes me feel a million times better. I also was surprised to find out that putting just my legs into the cold swimming pool also helps. I feel like it's something to do with the weightlessness of the water and/or the water pressure -- but the cold probably helps too as I don't think a hot pool would help and hot tubs makes everything worse.

 

[andyguitar]

Going into the swimming pool makes me feel a million times better. I also was surprised to find out that putting just my legs into the cold swimming pool also helps

Being in water increases the atmospheric pressure on your legs in a way similar to wearing compression socks. I'm looking at the effects of therapeutic hypothermia. Bit more extreme than a cold shower! But it's very interesting that's for sure.

 

[Booble]

Oh, that is interesting, Andy. Do you think that means compression socks might be helpful for me? I never thought of that.

 

[andyguitar]

Do you think that means compression socks might be helpful for me? I never thought of that.

Yes, must be worth a try. But dont expect it to be as effective as being in water.

 

[J.G]

@andyguitar Hey! Yes, I still benefit from cold showers. They provide relief from malaise and nausea that, for me, are telltale signs that I've overdone it. The mechanism may be cold thermogenesis, I'm not sure.

There are some caveats to what I wrote here last year. Looking back, it's now obvious to me that I was stuck in a chronic PEM. I've had moderate to severe ME for about a decade now, and I never realised that it was possible to feel like anything but royal garbage 95% of the time. By dialling back my activity level to absolute zero I was able to find a floor where I'm not 100% rubbish 100% of the time, and that in turn has allowed me to better map my (painfully low!) activity limits.

What I wrote about cold showers last year should be interpreted in this context of chronic PEM. Back then, I was continually desperate for illness relief, and only cold exposure could bring it. I routinely did Wim Hof-style cold drenches at very low temperatures. (I took my showers as icy as water temperatures permitted!) They "calmed" the body and took away the sickness feeling like nothing else could.

Now that I'm out of chronic PEM, a few things have changed. I've gone from "sick but never sick" to having colds that flare up whenever I'm too "active", and that wane when I better respect my limits. Which is really hard by the way - it means I cannot do any reading, go up or down the stairs, have much of a meaningful conversation, and especially not do any PC work, which for whatever reason wrecks me like nothing else. In any case, I'm tempted to hail this as a sign of progress: now that I'm not constantly exceeding my limits, has my body (finally) gone back to fighting whatever latent infection(s) plague it? I recall JaimeS writing about a similar "progression path": the first post-ME diagnoses common cold was a triumph.

Weirdly it also means that, while I'm still helped by cold exposure, I've also become susceptible to *catching a cold*. I wish I could explain why, but I can't, I only have my personal observations. If I take a freezing cold shower today, I end up sick. Not ME sick, but *sick sick*, with a stuffed nose / sinuses. As such I'm far more careful and cautious about full-body cold exposure. I still treat my neck and forehead this way; it seems to speed up recovery from cognitive effort (like writing this message)! My body I now merely cool, not chill.

Hope that helps!

 

[andyguitar]

As such I'm far more careful and cautious about full-body cold exposure. I still treat my neck and forehead this way; it seems to speed up recovery from cognitive effort (like writing this message)! My body I now merely cool, not chill.

Thanks for the info. It has occured to me that the benefits of repeated cold exposure will start to wear off after a while as the body will become acclimatized to them. The less drastic warm water baths might be a better option.

 

[J.G]

Thanks for the info. It has occured to me that the benefits of repeated cold exposure will start to wear off after a while as the body will become acclimatized to them. The less drastic warm water baths might be a better option.

Maybe! Do the effects wear off, or do they become embedded? If the latter, higher metabolic rates due to an adaptive cold thermogenesis may be favourable for us pwME. Whatever mechanism underlies it, cold exposure has worked consistently for me. It's just that less extreme cold now suffices (for me). If I somehow got pushed back into chronic PEM, perhaps I'd again find relief in extreme(r) cold. I'm not keen to find out haha. Warm water baths were never an option for me - I do terribly in hot conditions.

 

[andyguitar]

Maybe! Do the effects wear off, or do they become embedded? If the latter, higher metabolic rates due to an adaptive cold thermogenesis may be favourable for us pwME.

Yep thats a good point but......would'nt a higher metabolic rate (which could be described as more activity) cause a worsening of symptoms?

 

[J.G]

Yep thats a good point but......would'nt a higher metabolic rate (which could be described as more activity) cause a worsening of symptoms?

Hmm. I'd say a higher metabolic rate is desirable, provided the ATP is available to sustain it. From what I read, under normal physiological conditions, cold exposure inspires a temporary, compensatory spike in glucose turnover to maintain core temperature. Current theories seem to indicate that pwME's glucose energy metabolism is impaired. My working assumption is that cold works to briefly increase energy production and output. How exactly, I don't know. I can only throw Shevchuk's 2007 article at you for some hypotheses.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2164952/

 

[helios]

@andyguitar
Weirdly it also means that, while I'm still helped by cold exposure, I've also become susceptible to *catching a cold*. I wish I could explain why, but I can't, I only have my personal observations. If I take a freezing cold shower today, I end up sick. Not ME sick, but *sick sick*, with a stuffed nose / sinuses. As such I'm far more careful and cautious about full-body cold exposure. I still treat my neck and forehead this way; it seems to speed up recovery from cognitive effort (like writing this message)! My body I now merely cool, not chill.
!

I've had also discovered cold showers numerous years back as well as swimming laps at the pool, though its hard to stay long in the outdoor pool for much of the year. Cryo-therapy is very much a thing with bio-hackers (blame Wim Hoff) these days and there are clinics that allow you to spend time in extreme cold (-100) for very short spells. Its been shown to boost immunity + neurotransmitters + pain relievers. I do it mainly for eroding brain fog for a while. Likewise I do better health wise in the coldest months of the year...part of which is the cold and part the reduction in grasses, pollens, terpenes, pollution in the air.

I noticed when I did some spells swimming outdoors in cold water pool in colder weather I would get a cold too and I hardly ever get them, and I'd say its not dragging down my immune system but rather boosting it so it is able to fight back against cold bacteria. To me annoying as they are, colds are a good sign for me and when I get over a cold I enjoy a brief spell of okay health then slowly slip back. I dont get colds if I take cold showers but I'm only under them for 2-3 mins whereas cold swimming it was 40mins and I'd be shivering.

 

[andyguitar]

I can only throw Shevchuk's 2007 article at you for some hypotheses.

He also wrote this article in 2010. This is the short version of it.

 

[andyguitar]

Looking at the above, point A (line 6) could be the answer. It says "A reduction of the total level of serotonin in the brain, as evidenced by direct measurements in laboratory animals and by a drop of the plasma prolactin level in human subjects; this would be consistent with reduced fatigue according to "the serotonin hypothesis of central fatigue" Which means there is solid evidence that cooling of the body reduces brain serotonin levels. I like this idea. A lot!

 

[J.G]

Looking at the above, point A (line 6) could be the answer. It says "A reduction of the total level of serotonin in the brain, as evidenced by direct measurements in laboratory animals and by a drop of the plasma prolactin level in human subjects; this would be consistent with reduced fatigue according to "the serotonin hypothesis of central fatigue" Which means there is solid evidence that cooling of the body reduces brain serotonin levels. I like this idea. A lot!

So do I It dovetails quite neatly with the IDO metabolic trap theory, the biochemistry of which suggests that neurons expressing TPH2 will continually produce serotonin to maximum capacity because we have such an enormous substrate excess (tryptophan) and no other way to clear it!

Expanding on that a little bit: note that central serotonin is thought to have many regulatory functions, for instance through the HPA axis. Neurons variably express TPH1 and TPH2. The former is substrate-inhibited, the latter is not. Which suggests that if tryptophan is high (as it is thought to be in pwME), serotonin homeostasis is all topsy turvy, with poor adaptive capacity in places where TPH1 is expressed, and the potential for serotonin floods where TPH2 is expressed. Which in turn could go some way towards explaining body temperature dysregulation, extreme physiological responses to emotional upheaval, and even the deleterious ultra PEM-like consequences of orgasm for some men with ME. (Mass monoamine release!)

If cold exposure indeed (transiently) reduces central serotonin levels where they are sharply elevated, that could be our mechanism

 

[andyguitar]

I wonder if Dr Phair, @HTester has come across the effects of cold on serotonin levels?

 

[J.G]

I wonder if Dr Phair, @HTester has come across the effects of cold on serotonin levels?

I can't speak for the researchers obviously. But considering my insights (if you want to call them that) are derived from Dr. Phair's public talks about the metabolic trap, I'm sure the hypothetical effects of cold crossed their minds. Thing is, it's hugely impractical for a largely bedbound patient like myself to undergo cold hydrotherapy. I imagine it's entirely impossible for the severely ill (and perhaps risky). So regardless of the theory, as a practical intervention cold therapy is of limited usefulness.

 

[Davsey27]

I can't speak for the researchers obviously. But considering my insights (if you want to call them that) are derived from Dr. Phair's public talks about the metabolic trap, I'm sure the hypothetical effects of cold crossed their minds. Thing is, it's hugely impractical for a mostly bedbound patient like myself to undergo cold hydrotherapy. I imagine it's entirely impossible for the severely ill (and perhaps risky). So regardless of the theory, as a practical intervention cold therapy is of limited usefulness.

Good point

Cold thermogenesis can be harmful if one is sick and has immune deficiencies.First year or so when I got CFS i noticed small improvements implemented CT in winter but its dependent on ones current state.Sunlight and heat on the other hand seem to have a positive effect on me.When one is severe I can see how cold or sunlight can cause issues

 

[Muon]

Maybe! Do the effects wear off, or do they become embedded? If the latter, higher metabolic rates due to an adaptive cold thermogenesis may be favourable for us pwME. Whatever mechanism underlies it, cold exposure has worked consistently for me. It's just that less extreme cold now suffices (for me). If I somehow got pushed back into chronic PEM, perhaps I'd again find relief in extreme(r) cold. I'm not keen to find out haha. Warm water baths were never an option for me - I do terribly in hot conditions.

I also find relief by cold exposure. Also relief at midnight, best at 3:00 am (melatonin?). You got a similar disease combination as I have, that is, POIS and CFS. I measured some cytokines and if you take a look at papers, some cytokines that are elevated in my case, are going down during cold stress, like Interferon gamma. Stress hormones are actually going up. It's not only that, my metabolism feels different.

 

[Booble]

I've noticed the reverse as well. Hot water raises my heart rate and general feeling of unwell. Showers often make my heart race REALLY fast and pounding. Also, in another post I wrote about the challenges cooking and all the standing and up and down. However recently I noticed that when I'm cooking I also wash my hands under hot water over and over. So I'm going to test and see if washing my hand in cold water improves my kitchen stamina.

 

[Muon]

Did anyone from this forum moved to colder climate permanently? How did that person fare in the long run?

 

[Booble]

Did anyone from this forum moved to colder climate permanently? How did that person fare in the long run?

I live in a warm, tropical climate.