The Undetectable Infection

[mellster]

These bacteria are invaders .... this is an overgrowth of alpha haemolitic biofilm forming bacteria .... or normal flora ...

And they are in the lymphatic system blasting out protease and hydrogen peroxide (equivalent or higher than ROS) which activates further ROS from cells along with inflammatory cykotines, nk cells, IgA and IgG antibodies and whatever else the immune system throws in there .....

Could this lead to cystic granulomas/lesions within the lymphatic system?

 

[Elph68]

Could this lead to cystic granulomas/lesions within the lymphatic system?

Hi Marco,

It is proven that hydrogen peroxide production damages cells and cellular DNA which causes lesions and polyps in the mouth, throat, and bowel. Protease production causes lesions in the mouth, throat, genitals and bowel. It is therefore not a big stretch to suggest that if these bacteria are in the lymphatic system, then lesions or granulomas can result from the same action ....

I will see if I can find anything concrete ...

Cheers.

 

[mellster]

Hi Marco,

It is proven that hydrogen peroxide production damages cells and cellular DNA which causes lesions and polyps in the mouth, throat, and bowel. Protease production causes lesions in the mouth, throat, genitals and bowel. It is therefore not a big stretch to suggest that if these bacteria are in the lymphatic system, then lesions or granulomas can result from the same action ....

I will see if I can find anything concrete ...

Cheers.

Thanks, I'd be really interested in this. As you may know I have officially fully recovered since a while and am in good aerobic shape, but I have some trouble with cystic lesions in the lymphs by the throat/jawline. Docs usually blame this on EBV or other viruses integrated into the DNA after initial infection once growths have been ruled out, and that may be true but it could as well be bacterial since their cultures never test for opportunistic bacteria, only classified pathogens. It would also explain complete metabolic breakdown and extreme low performance (housebound etc.) if the bacteria is disseminated in the lymph system throughout the body causing widespread blockages and not contained locally, which is a theory brought up by a former member and scientific researcher. Once it's contained locally it may still cause lingering localized issues which could be falsely blamed on viral infections. Note that ironically exercise helps reducing the lesions, probably by promoting the transport of dead matter and bacteria out of the system, but of course it's a double edged sword since many cannot exercise and the transport always carries a small risk of dissemination (but it should still be favored over continued blockage). Why there are no more lymph node biopsies scanning for opportunistic bacteria is beyond me. IMO this would lead to much faster breakthroughs than serum studies which may continue to yield very little.

 

[Elph68]

Thanks, I'd be really interested in this. As you may know I have officially fully recovered since a while and am in good aerobic shape, but I have some trouble with cystic lesions in the lymphs by the throat/jawline. Docs usually blame this on EBV or other viruses integrated into the DNA after initial infection once growths have been ruled out, and that may be true but it could as well be bacterial since their cultures never test for opportunistic bacteria, only classified pathogens. It would also explain complete metabolic breakdown and extreme low performance (housebound etc.) if the bacteria is disseminated in the lymph system throughout the body causing widespread blockages and not contained locally, which is a theory brought up by a former member and scientific researcher. Once it's contained locally it may still cause lingering localized issues which could be falsely blamed on viral infections. Note that ironically exercise helps reducing the lesions, probably by promoting the transport of dead matter and bacteria out of the system, but of course it's a double edged sword since many cannot exercise and the transport always carries a small risk of dissemination (but it should still be favored over continued blockage). Why there are no more lymph node biopsies scanning for opportunistic bacteria is beyond me. IMO this would lead to much faster breakthroughs than serum studies which may continue to yield very little.

Hi Marco,

Finally .... Someone who get's it So now there are 2 of us on this forum thinking the same way ....

This is my last letter to Dr Lipkin ....


Dear Dr Lipkin,

Thank you for your response, but there is a little more that I would like to add.

I feel that the real issue here is an overgrowth of Alpha Haemolytic, biofilm forming species. I believe that protease production is only a part of the problem. I can prove it theoretically with desktop research. It seems to me that hydrogen peroxide and super oxide production from these bacteria overstimulates the immune system. Hydrogen peroxide production from these species also destroys cells in the epithelial layer, weakens the cellular bindings (allowing direct access to the immune system) and destroys DNA at the cellular level. The production of lactic acid further complicates the condition. I believe they are then able to hide out in the lymphatic system continuing the over stimulation from within. It seems overproduction of H2O2 and superoxides and antibodies and cykotines causes internal organ damage, including the thyroid, pancreas, liver, kidneys along with the CNS, the brain and also causes polyps, cancers, arthritis, deafness and blindness. I also believe that this is the cause of vaginitis, 'non bacterial' prostatitis, IBS and possibly IBD such as Crohns and UC.

I would like to conduct a small study in order to achieve my honours in Microbiology with the Menzies Institute here in Tasmania, Australia. I feel I can fund this but I need a microbiologist to oversee the project and given your current position, may help you to raise funds.

I have been pushing this with the medical professionals here for over 3 years .... I need this qualification to prove my case and receive treatment for my friends, family and me. My 9 yo daughter contracted this when she was 5, shortly after my symptoms started.

I am a regional scientist and I believe the cost to the national medical budget is horrendous and a pandemic of these species will cripple a national economy.

I believe the issue has been caused by inappropriate use of abx, can be transferred sexually and by close personal contact. These bacteria are commonly resistant to penicillin, macrolides, fluoroquinolines, doxycyclene and vancomycin.

A mixed infection of these species is currently undetectable using current pathology methods, Viridans streptococcus, particularly the mitis and sanguinis group and enterococcus species seem to be the ringleaders as they are the stongest biofilm formers and strong H2O2 producers ....

This is 'The Undetectable Infection' ....

 

[Elph68]

I keep seeing around the forum that there is a link between CFS/ME and low e-coli in the intestine .... Seems e-coli is highly sensitive to H2O2 .....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC212335/

Seems manganese can protect e-coli from this ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21402925

So ditch the cappuccino and drink black tea ....

Cheers.

 

[Elph68]

The Undetectable infection next piece of the puzzle is hydrogen sulfide .... I have kept this part until now because there is already a lot of information out there on this .... but again, Enterococcus and Streptococcus Sanguinis (and other viridans) is a producer of this toxin, which is also classed as a neurotoxin. Other species include Salmonella, Citrobacter, Proteus, Prevotella, Edwardsiella and some species of Klebsiella to name a few ...

 

[Elph68]

Hydrogen Sulfide is the known nasty. This is what the WA government says about the level of hydrogen sulfide in the air and the effect it has on the human body.

Level in air (ppm) Impacts and health effects
>0.008 Increasing possibility of annoyance and headache, nausea, fatigue
2 Bronchial restriction in some asthmatics
4 Increased eye complaints
5-10 Minor metabolic effects
20 Neurological effects including memory loss and dizziness

http://www.public.health.wa.gov.au/cproot/2652/2/11548 hydrogen sulphide and public health.pdf

This is not an exhaustive list and I will endeavour to bring this all together. Does anybody else see any similarities in what is known about this toxin with regards to short term exposure, and CFS symptoms? What does long term exposure do? And I believe this is a part of the reason why symptoms are cyclic because the levels of lactic acid, H2O2 and H2S change according to body functions/stresses/hormones/diet and the bacterial activity .....

Now, getting back to fixing the gut. Once the bacteria of the gut have broken through the epithelial barrier, the bacteria and their toxins have access to the internal systems and the bacteria hide in the lymphatic system and continue to produce these toxins which continue to degrade the body's systems. It seems to me therefore, that theoretically CFS could develop from a throat/mouth infection, eyes/nose, urogenital tract infection, as the mechanism for breaking through the gut wall and breaking the cellular junctions also happens in these areas .... How many men do you know with chronic 'non bacterial' prostatitis. Non specific urethritis, how many women with unexplainable vaginitis, or people with canker sores, geographic tongue, mouth ulcers, chronic sore throat or recurring sore throat .... These are all signs that the bacteria are attacking the mucous membranes with protease, H2O2 and H2S but the medical professionals haven't figured it out yet ...

For me, it started on the tongue and eyes, went to the prostate, then the throat and only recently went into the gut..... it was at this time I crashed .... But along the way I was having very minor CFS symptoms, I just didn't realize it.

This is a system wide 'syndrome' so a system wide approach is needed ... by suppressing the bacteria and fixing the gut will only give at best 70% recovery, and long term damage to our health and a shortened lifespan ... I believe the lymphatic system holds the missing link ....

This is the undetectable infection ... opportunistic/pathogenic normal flora ....

 

[Elph68]

As far as hydrogen peroxide producing bacteria are concerned, here is a study that shows relative levels produced by different types of oral inhabitants ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874960/

 

[Elph68]

So here is the BIG question, and this gets back to what Marco said ....

If CFS is caused by hydrogen peroxide and/or hydrogen sulfide poisoning from normal flora bacteria, how are the researchers going to find biomarkers to substances that dissipate relatively quickly from the body in people who have a cyclic or recurring condition, and may not have high levels of these in the blood all the time?

This is the undetectable infection ...

 

[Elph68]

Now let's look at why some of this happens .... How do ROS species that produce hydrogen peroxide damage cells in some and not others. Well it seems to have a lot do do with catalase. This enzyme is produced by cells to protect them from Hydrogen peroxide. It turns hydrogen peroxide into water and oxygen. Now, if you are like me and are type 2 diabetic, it seems we are catalase deficient and therefore our mucous membranes are unable to break down the hydrogen peroxide allowing it to break through the mucous membranes causing leaks and damages internal organs ....

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/31/12/e93.full

Hydrogen peroxide in the system then causes diabetes .... I believe this explains why my blood sugar went from 12 to 7 while I was on antibiotics and why my blood sugar goes up during a crash ....

Again ... The undetectable infection .....

 

[Elph68]

I keep seeing on the forum a lot of comments about early ageing ... If you subscribe to the 'undetectable infection' it actually makes sense .... Hydrogen peroxide causes early ageing ....

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1383574213000689

So alpha haemolytic streptococcus/enterococcus, lactobacillus and others produce hydrogen peroxide .... Catalase deficiency is hereditary ...... Is this a bio marker that the researchers can look for .... Low catalase levels in the blood ... That is why some have said their ROS levels are out of control ....

Can anybody tell me if this has been tested for in any previous research?? Not receiving much feedback these days .....

 

[Elph68]

I am going to make a really bold statement .... One that I have not seen anywhere before ....

It looks like that catalase deficiency at the cellular level could be a major contributor to the development of this disease ....

But is it the missing link??? Look at your family tree .... Early onset of type 2 diabetes, early greying of the hair, early ageing means that it is likely there is a genetic catalase deficiency in your family.

Catalase deficiency can also be acquired and happens to most/all people at later stages of life .... 60's, 70's, 80's etc...

And it seems that e-coli is a catalase positive organism, produces catalase, I have seen a lot mentioned about low e-coli levels in CFS patients ....

 

[Seven7]

No type 2 diabetes in all of my tree. No White hair, actually insanely late dark hair till late age. A lot of gut issues though (Chron's)...

Can we test for Catalase deficiency???? I think is getting close!!!

 

[Elph68]

No type 2 diabetes in all of my tree. No White hair, actually insanely late dark hair till late age. A lot of gut issues though (Chron's)...

Can we test for Catalase deficiency???? I think is getting close!!!

I believe crohns is definitely a sign of low catalase .... I got no idea if there is a commercial test available ...

 

[Elph68]

Now that I have given away the million dollar secret, I may as we'll dump it all out there .....

Geographic tongue, moth ulcers and psoriasis I believe are all symptoms of catalase deficiency .....

I also believes that eventually, everybody who has IBS or IBD will eventually get CFS it just may not be until they are 70 .....

This is a deficiency at the cellular level .....

The pandemic is coming .... Alpha haemolytic bacteria species and catalase deficiency .... This is the undetectable infection ......

You saw it here first .......

 

[Seven7]

to treat catalase??
http://www.nograyhairs.com/?gclid=C...EgKzUsRlpDjgxpgOXkACopr7MZhmIhsdaiU7_Svzw_wcB

foods:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/536883-what-foods-contain-the-catalase-enzyme/

 

[MeSci]

Now that I have given away the million dollar secret, I may as we'll dump it all out there .....

Geographic tongue, moth ulcers and psoriasis I believe are all symptoms of catalase deficiency .....

I also believes that eventually, everybody who has IBS or IBD will eventually get CFS it just may not be until they are 70 .....

This is a deficiency at the cellular level .....

The pandemic is coming .... Alpha haemolytic bacteria species and catalase deficiency .... This is the undetectable infection ......

You saw it here first .......

We see lots of things here first, many just as plausible. Many are likely to have some or a lot of truth in them. Quite a lot already include some or many aspects of your theories. I still don't understand what has given rise to your unusually high level of certainty that you alone have the unique and correct answer.

Good scientists generally express clear caveats, precautions, etc., and often mention other possible explanations for findings, and keep open minds until they have obtained clear and near-incontrovertible results.

As I have said before, you may be right - partly or even completely. But it seems much too early to have so much certainty, and much is still theoretical.

 

[mellster]

If CFS is caused by hydrogen peroxide and/or hydrogen sulfide poisoning from normal flora bacteria, how are the researchers going to find biomarkers to substances that dissipate relatively quickly from the body in people who have a cyclic or recurring condition, and may not have high levels of these in the blood all the time?

This is the undetectable infection ...

I am also wondering once pathogens have been identified, esp. if they are localized only, how to deliver an effective therapy to the regions that are very hard to reach without a huge dilution factor. You can't just ingest a large dose of medication hoping it won't dilute down too much by the time it arrives at its destination without grave side-effects. Ironically science has been progressing far more in areas where the money is such as plastic surgery and botox injections etc. and I am wondering if a long and fine enough needle able to titrate very exactly could deliver drugs to places otherwise hard to reach. It is strange to me that antibiotics can only be ingested or put on the skin these days, it seems like they should have come up with a more specialized method of transport by now.

 

[mellster]

We see lots of things here first, many just as plausible. Many are likely to have some or a lot of truth in them. Quite a lot already include some or many aspects of your theories. I still don't understand what has given rise to your unusually high level of certainty that you alone have the unique and correct answer.

Good scientists generally express clear caveats, precautions, etc., and often mention other possible explanations for findings, and keep open minds until they have obtained clear and near-incontrovertible results.

As I have said before, you may be right - partly or even completely. But it seems much too early to have so much certainty, and much is still theoretical.

I don't know if he's right but I am pretty sure everyone else is wrong. The abuse of funds on useless serum studies for the umpteenth time that yield nada needs to stop. It's time they move to tissue samples taken from regions where the patients actually exhibit symptoms.

 

[Seven7]

It's time they move to tissue samples taken from regions where the patients actually exhibit symptoms.

The interesting thing is, I asked a friend researcher about the tissue sample and the issue is the way we test today. We do not know what we are looking for so with current methodology is hard to look in tissue when you don't know the pathogen you are looking for. Now I wonder if we go to that place that work (not with a specific pathogen) but with DNA of things we might have a better shot. I am taking about the new tests where they take the sample and look for any known pathogen (and will let you know of anything unknown) measuring the DNA of the pathogen. I forgot the group name by now. Will try to find it.