THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

[Valentijn]

What does homozygous A66g do?

It slows down the recycling of methylcobalamin, one of the active forms of B12.

 

[Freddd]

@dbkita,

If you are still around, I wanted to mention that about 1972 with 2 other people, observed a near Earth pass of a sizable asteroid, big enough to see diameter and quite bright (traffic light yellow bright at 1000 yards perhaps (no fireball, not in atmosphere just to be clear)) and watched it going by from full sun to penumbra and umbra and away. It still concerns me that it might catch up to us a little closer another time. By the duration shape and diameter could be seen I would bet it was an extinction event waiting to happen.

 

[jhlyon]

hello @Freddd i was wondering if you could help me. I have had cfs/me/fibro for 10 years. I began taking b-12 & folate supplements 2 weeks ago. since then I have had increasingly severe insomnia - waking up in the middle of the night with a above-average heartbeat and an awake mind, but a tired body. do you know why this might be and what i could do to reduce it?

& my second question: i must confess i only found your more detailed instructions today, after already ordering products based on Dr Rich's protocol - and so i have only now learned that some brands are not as good quality as others. i dont have much money so can't really afford to buy another 6months' supply of all-new products - but i am very worried that the ones i bought will not be good enough. i am getting the folate in the form of l-5-methyltetrahydrofolate calcium salt, as included in the life extension two-per-day [tablets]. i am getting methylcobalamin) from NOW [lozenges]. I am getting folinic acid from california gold nutrition [drops]. does this seem adequate to you, or must i start again? I am quite distraut at the prospect of throwing away $100 worth of unopened products.

I note dr rich recommended l-cystine to help with the possible exitoticity that comes from beginning his methylation protocol & which can lead to insomnia. since dr rich is sadly no longer with us, i was wondering if you might have learned more about this issue - and whether this solution might work?

thanks for your time.

 

[Freddd]

hello @Freddd i was wondering if you could help me. I have had cfs/me/fibro for 10 years. I began taking b-12 & folate supplements 2 weeks ago. since then I have had increasingly severe insomnia - waking up in the middle of the night with a above-average heartbeat and an awake mind, but a tired body. do you know why this might be and what i could do to reduce it?

& my second question: i must confess i only found your more detailed instructions today, after already ordering products based on Dr Rich's protocol - and so i have only now learned that some brands are not as good quality as others. i dont have much money so can't really afford to buy another 6months' supply of all-new products - but i am very worried that the ones i bought will not be good enough. i am getting the folate in the form of l-5-methyltetrahydrofolate calcium salt, as included in the life extension two-per-day [tablets]. i am getting methylcobalamin) from NOW [lozenges]. I am getting folinic acid from california gold nutrition [drops]. does this seem adequate to you, or must i start again? I am quite distraut at the prospect of throwing away $100 worth of unopened products.

I note dr rich recommended l-cystine to help with the possible exitoticity that comes from beginning his methylation protocol & which can lead to insomnia. since dr rich is sadly no longer with us, i was wondering if you might have learned more about this issue - and whether this solution might work?

thanks for your time.

Hi Jhlyon,
If I were you I wouldn't touch folinic acid with a 20 foot pole. For me and people with folate problems folinic acid can completely prevent a person from having a beneficial result. Until you KNOW what healing is like you won't be able to tell if folinic acid (or folic acid or veggie folates) is a benefit to you or not. This could save you years of frustration and suffering if I you react as I do and many people do to folinic acid as well as folic acid. Also, if feasible, you might see if 4 x 1/2 tablet daily is better than 2 doses of 1 tablet each. Have your potassium ready in case of success. Again that works better as multiple small doses than a couple of big ones which forces all that can't be transferred to the tissue quickly enough it goes out in the urine. It is quite common for people to have slow transfers of nutrients compared to kidney removal.

Look for all your recently happening symptoms. They will be in groups 1, 2 and 3 most likely, those you mentioned and those that simply got worse so often you don't notice it. Good luck

Edited and added - Please not the l-cysteine for the same reason, if it causes "Detox" it is causing a severe b12 deficiency with folate symptoms no matter how much you take of MeCbl.

Version 2.21 12/06/2016 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms.

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious:
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.

Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.

Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone

Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.

Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.

Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects.
Runaway tooth decay
Loss of calcium in bones and teeth

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html

Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.

 

[jhlyon]

hi @Freddd thank you so much for your help!
i think group 3 symptoms are sounding very familiar - though I dont really know what that has to do with waking up at 2am with an overactive mind and heart.

i) presuming i have some kind of even worse methylation block/glutathione detox now - from what i understand - your suggestion is to a) avoid folinic acid, and also maybe b) increase folate intake? i only take 400mcg folate [l-5-methyltetrahydrofolate] currently. you seem to recommend metafolin. i am not sure whether to immediately try and get some metafolin or to wait and see if stopping folinic acid will be enough. honestly i am very confused but also quite desperate because i can't really take more nights of insomnia this bad

I do also eat a lot of vegetables but god i hope those aren't also contributing to the problem. i eat meat too though...

ii) I can't say i relate to any of the those potassium deficiency symptoms, unless insomnia is sometimes one of them. but i am willing to go out and get potassium if trying to treat i) does nothing.

iii) copper deficiency does also sound plausible, since i take at least 60mg zinc a day & have had copper deficiency in the past - but since you say this is only really common once the methylation start up has been achieved - i cannot assume that both iii) and i) are true - since surely i) [worse methylation block] logically implies methylation start-up has not been achieved. so i guess i have to try i) and ii) first and then if those do not work, perhaps supplement copper.

i feel like i am groping around in risky territory with science i do not understand at all and possibly endangering myself & making my illness worse. i would be glad to see improvements, but i am afraid of my current decline into worse symptoms...

thank you so much for you time! i am very grateful

 

[jhlyon]

@Freddd ps. i just thought about this - i take 1mg melatonin every night. is it possible that suddenly taking way more b12 than before could be somehow leading to excess melatonin & so ruining my sleep phase?

would a potential fix for this be to stop taking melatonin?

 

[pamojja]

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response..

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin)..

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness...

Your description of muscle-cramps, particularly the excruciating in the neck and when turning the upper body, but also any of the others spasms, sound all very familiar to me! Looking at my notes, in 2010 I fasted twice for a week each. First in Feb. during an infection, then a water-fast in Dec. The following spring my serum potassium measured the lowest ever, at 3.4 mmol/mol (3.5 - 5.1). In hair it dropped from 90 ug/g down to 10 (20-240). Additionally at the beginning of 2010 had started supplementation 'ala Linus Pauling against a newly diagnosed PAD, and already early 2010 the muscle-cramps had started.

Till this day thought these muscle-cramps more due to severe magnesium deficiency. Because very high doses of Mg helped with the cramps (now at 2.3 g/d of elemental Mg supplemented; in avg. 1.5 g/d for almost 9 years). K serum levels normalized in avg. at 4.5 mmol/mol all these years, but whole blood Mg (RBC not available to me) declined even further, at 31 mg/l in avg. (34-36 normal range). First thought maybe through the high doses of vitamin C, but now rather think that high doses of D3 might have exacerbated already low Mg body stores.

During the years also started supplementing Na and K, at the moment at 2.7 g/d and 2.3 respectively. In avg. 1.2 g/d of each. Which seem to have been needed to support that high a Mg intake (Na showed even lower than K in hair).

Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.

Zinc in serum always been just at lowest range, while copper above the middle with much too high Cu:Zn ratio [serum: 1.5 (0.7-1 range); whole blood: 0.18 (0.135-0.165 range)]. Therefore increased Zn up to 60 mg/d, where slight headache started, and 2 g/d Cu helped with. However, after some years ended up with much too high copper 192 µg/dl (65-165 range), and serum Zn below normal. While in hair Zn has normalized, and Cu dropped to 10 in avg. (9-39 ug/g). Cu/Zn, seems a never ending riddle for me.

 

[Freddd]

@pamojja,

A comment on observation time is critical. If there is low potassium, start taking 300-400mg in glass of water and symptoms should be responding within hours. With 4mg or so of methylfolate, deficiency symptoms start responding in hours, no doubt in a day. On third day next round of pow potassium will start, So if you have to do 1600 mg of potassium to stop the symptoms, that-is your new go forward base, balancing beyond there. Response of what is actually deficiency is very fast, an onset of additional refeeding symptoms show up 3-4 days typically. One has to move fast to follow these symptoms. Waiting a month to evaluate throws out 99% of the data. You can't win doing it that way. The spasms can be largely done in a day but the potassium has to be kept up. Good luck. Calcium, magnesium and potassium can cause similar symptoms with too much or not enough. Take the magnesium but titrate the potassium.

 

[Aerowallah]

@Freddd ps. i just thought about this - i take 1mg melatonin every night. is it possible that suddenly taking way more b12 than before could be somehow leading to excess melatonin & so ruining my sleep phase?

would a potential fix for this be to stop taking melatonin?

@Freddd ps. i just thought about this - i take 1mg melatonin every night. is it possible that suddenly taking way more b12 than before could be somehow leading to excess melatonin & so ruining my sleep phase?

would a potential fix for this be to stop taking melatonin?

@jhlyon you describe my sudden onset of insomnia exactly. Fredd's clusters of symptoms have not applied to me after 2 months of low and slow methylation--1000 mcg cocktail of B12 forms + 200 mcg folate + multi of cofactors.

Fatigue and sleep have improved 50% until I ran out of folate, but I continued Bs for two weeks until I had a strong onset of insomnia--body tired, brain alert--which feels like an earlier episode of glutamate elevation after too much taurine.

Cutting B12 to 500 immediately reduced the insomnia from onset (all night) to maintenance insomnia (2am to 4am on). Will see if possibly too high levels of B12 clear in the week it takes to refill my folate and then I will restart slowly up to my original ratio.

Don't think electrolytes / potassium are my issue as I have been drinking Trace Minerals like mother's milk.

Unless low potassium can present as insomnia with none of the other more typical hypo symptoms?

Can B12 with inadequate folate lead to insomnia or potassium-induced insomnia w/o elevated heart, twitching etc.? On another thread someone talked about balancing the energy of B12 with calming effects of folate...but there are more threads in which people blame folate for insomnia.

 

[Aerowallah]

Gonna refer myself to post...

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b12-and-insomnia.17904/

 

[Freddd]

@jhlyon you describe my sudden onset of insomnia exactly. Fredd's clusters of symptoms have not applied to me after 2 months of low and slow methylation--1000 mcg cocktail of B12 forms + 200 mcg folate + multi of cofactors.

Fatigue and sleep have improved 50% until I ran out of folate, but I continued Bs for two weeks until I had a strong onset of insomnia--body tired, brain alert--which feels like an earlier episode of glutamate elevation after too much taurine.

Cutting B12 to 500 immediately reduced the insomnia from onset (all night) to maintenance insomnia (2am to 4am on). Will see if possibly too high levels of B12 clear in the week it takes to refill my folate and then I will restart slowly up to my original ratio.

Don't think electrolytes / potassium are my issue as I have been drinking Trace Minerals like mother's milk.

Unless low potassium can present as insomnia with none of the other more typical hypo symptoms?

Can B12 with inadequate folate lead to insomnia or potassium-induced insomnia w/o elevated heart, twitching etc.? On another thread someone talked about balancing the energy of B12 with calming effects of folate...but there are more threads in which people blame folate for insomnia.

Various people have various patterns. However, the same patterns repeat for the same person many times so one can work through them. As to a matter of pharmacokinetics of B12, while there are some excretion differences between varieties, they are terribly small in comparison to the actuality. 99% of a dose of B12 is excreted in the urine unchanged within 1-2 days. In the first hour after a dose 75% of the total dose is excreted. By 12 hours the serum half life has increased to 4.+ hours. For the next 36 hours serum half life averages 12.9 hours.

A trace mineral mix will not have any where enough potassium for somebody who gets a large cell making response. Potassium is one of the bulk minerals in bodies.

The sequences I have listed out are based on a very specific set of nutrients and not others. So if somebody is taking folic acid, folinic acid, NAC, glutathione, green drinks with large quantities of vegetable based folates, CyCbl, HyCb and some other things no doubt, can POSSIBLY change everything to such an extent that any of the patterns I have described could be totally changed with unpredictable results and lots of unanswerable questions. However to the best of my knowledge of B12 (and every paper you can find that includes pharmacokinetic data) the way you hypothesize remains or leaves the body just isn't likely to be remotely work the way described. Be careful.

I remember something. Some people who were not taking AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate (90% of persons, 10% need ALCAR instead) and were not having the balance with the ATP generation. Also, after that was started and still a problem then adding TMG tamed the sleeplessness. There was another situation in which pantothenic acid corrected another cause of insomnia, after the AdoCbl and LCF were going well. There is a good reason for starting at the bottom and working each layer up. You get each thing working before going to the next. The more deficient a person is generally the bigger the immediate reaction for both B12 and folate, zinc, carnitine and others.

And another thing popped to mind. If you are taking CyCbl, HyCbl, and AdoCbl in addition to MeCbl, each time there is something other than MeCbl in place in the cell when needed then can cause methyltrap, expelling methylfolate from the cell, with folate deficiency symptoms along with B12 deficiency. B12 deficiency causes all sorts of sleep disorders not specifically identifed as there are so many variations.



Good luck.

 

[Aerowallah]

Many thanks for your input, Fredd, and sharing your discoveries. After five years healing ME it does feel like a last big missing link. But being somewhat challenged by the science and hyper-sensitive in the brain dept. (pot takes away my ability to read text for 48 hours, low-dose taurine in time gives me a glutamergic reaction!), I minimize the isolates for my own sanity.

Titrating up to 500 Methly + 500 Ado/Hydroxy (no cyano) + 200 folate did an amazingly gentle, calming job of reducing fatigue, improving sleep and eliminating histamine reaction from kefir. The insomnia kicked after I ran out of folate but kept taking B12 for two weeks while awaiting resupply. Stopping the B12 ended the insomnia immediately.

I have read Caledonia's notes and have niacin and potassium ready should I need it. Trace Minerals plus food sources are giving me about 4000 mg of Potassium daily, which seems to support above levels. Funny, I once took 175 mg of the gluconate powder to augment my daily dose and got a weird unsettling hit to the brain that I can't describe and it lasted all day and night. Some sort of nervy elevation at that ridiculously low but fast acting dose.

Before running out of folate I did notice some fatigue coming back slowly after two months of success so will try pushing the methyl component to 1000 while upping the folate.

I understand your last point about mixing the Bs. I'm thinking of taking methyl alone on alternate days, or weaning myself off the other forms.

 

[Freddd]

Potassium problems are not all the same. Some people have "unstable electrolytes" for genetic reasons. Part of the problem is that the serum half life of potassium is low. It gets shuffled into tissue quickly and the rest gets excreted. Coming out of tissue into serum can be slower than needed but not cause by insufficiency in the tissue. The problem can be insufficiency of transfer back into the serum when it is neeeded. My experience is that when it NEEDS a nutrient (many different ones), it needs it now or there is a fail on making the cell. The authorities used to say, "you only need to make sure that each needed nutrient is there at least once a day". That doesn't actually appear to work for many people. The timing for me is very tight. It appears that methyltrap for instance can occur on a cell by cell basis in a specific compartment while right next door in a different tissue cell formation is trotting along. Timing can be very important. Good health.

 

[Aerowallah]

But with a slow titration of Bs and absence of hypokalemic symptoms, you wouldn't advocate a maintenance dose of potassium higher than RDA levels, would you?

 

[Freddd]

Depending upon which studies you read, the amount of potassium in a persons total diet needs to give something like 3800-5000 mg of potassium daily for maintenance. The major loss is through the kidneys and those on some diuretics may find it very difficult to maintain their potassium level. This is part of the homeostasis mechanism, and in some people the mechanism doesn't work right. It appears to not be able to get it out of tissue into serum as fast as it pulls it pout of serum for whatever reason. This is often spoken of as "unstable electrolytes" as a result of genetic conditions (researchers hypothesis) such as I appear to have. One person from PR somewhere on the postings, described her experience at the ER for low potassium. They took a measurement "It's normal" and she was having symptoms all over the place. Then another potassium test and it had gone down a little. Then another one and the level dropped like a rock and they believed her. Kidney damage is about the only way anybody accumulates dangerous levels of potassium.

When I was on the ski patrol at 40 degrees below zero, I ate 5000 calories/day. Now I eat less than 1500 calories a day. I'm was burning most of that food as energy but it sure did increase the amount of minerals compared to 1/3 the calories and 1/3 the potassium.

I titrate by hypokalemia symptoms. I have succeeded in keeping my potassium, which is measured every time I see the doc, between 3.7 and 4.3. The spasms disappear around 4.3 for me and some others who have shared their info with me. Now there are other symptoms. Some people have mood changes first with low potassium , or heart palpitations and so on. Some people have low potassium symptoms nobody else has. Whatever you can identify that responds soon enough to keep you out of danger and responds by going away below 5.0 is good. I have to struggle to keep mine as high as 4.3.

Pill levels are set at 99 mg to avoid physically damaging the stomach among other things. I would love not to have to take all that potassium. Unfortunately I can't. Not everybody has any potassium problems. I have had them all my life and refeeding syndrome makes it worse. Of course I didn't used to heal either.

 

[reallyconfused]

@Freddd

a quick question. If a person is b12 difficient both in body and csf, he takes 1mg enzy mb12 sublingually and takes 15mg methylfolate to keep out of insufficiency. The 1mg enzy is enough for body but not for csf. So will this lead to a methyltrap in brain but not in body? Since methylfolate is very much bioavailabe and easily crosses blood brain barrier, there is lot of folate in the brain but too little b12, what problem will this cause?

In other words, is it safe to take high amounts of methylfolate while not taking cns penetration levels of b12?

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd

a quick question. If a person is b12 difficient both in body and csf, he takes 1mg enzy mb12 sublingually and takes 15mg methylfolate to keep out of insufficiency. The 1mg enzy is enough for body but not for csf. So will this lead to a methyltrap in brain but not in body? Since methylfolate is very much bioavailabe and easily crosses blood brain barrier, there is lot of folate in the brain but too little b12, what problem will this cause?

In other words, is it safe to take high amounts of methylfolate while not taking cns penetration levels of b12?

I hope I can help you change the "reallyconfused". part. It's difficult to say. There are a lot of aspects. I will tell you my experience. When I started 1mg sublingually of ENZY MeCbl it about blew my socks off. It affected a whole lot of things in the cns right from the start. It affected mood and personality and quieted multisensory hallucinations, it affected taste and smell. That change wasn't a leisurely change. It happened suddenly some months in. As a kind of silly disagreement about the definitions of "deficiency" versus "functional deficiency"; that :functional deficiency wasn't a REAL deficiency since it wasn't damage. So when you get a report of hyper MMA or HCY, then you are talking REAL damage. What I found was that there were a whole lot of things that responded to both MeCbl and/or AdoCbl at these normal doses. The large dose came out of Japanese research of 50mg doses with various modes of ingestion and later study with followup of spinal fluid injections of 2.5mg of MeCbl in a group of people with diabetic neuropathies. Many of them improved and stayed improved ass long as the CSF level stayed high. The high dose, I and a number of others who inject MeCbl regularly did a series of trials. We tried 50mg sublingual (at the time 10x5mg jarrow) and found it equivalent to about 7.5 to 10 mg of MeCbl SC injection for the purposes of improving neurological functioning including demyelinated areas improving. So people have lack of AdoCbl with high MMA, some have low MeCbl with high HCY, in the CSF and these cause different damages. Ordinary doses appears to affect functional insufficiencies and the higher doses affect the damages and some neuropathic problems

I will put up the list that distinguishes what the different nutrients affect. It distinguishes the high dose from the normal dose.. The folate appears to have plenty of MeCbl for normal functioning with a normal dose. It may take a year or two for enough healing to see what is left. I already had AdoCbl in the body and taking a once a week 50mg dose. At a week it never goes down far enough to make a noticeable difference. The AdoCbl changes the fats for myelin and is necessary along with methylfolate and MeCbl. If you have drop-foot, lack the ability to feel location, reflexes altered and so on that show up on the part of the list as responding to high dose MeCbl pay attention to those. If they get worse while all the other symptoms are getting better that tells you. If they stay the same, you will know that. If they improve too, that is a possibility. The folate appears to help increase serum half life and concentration of MeCbl. They were speaking of people correcting their blood with folate and NO cobalamins. That is dangerous. It takes very little B12 compared to folate. Good luck.

 

[reallyconfused]

I hope I can help you change the "reallyconfused". part. It's difficult to say. There are a lot of aspects. I will tell you my experience. When I started 1mg sublingually of ENZY MeCbl it about blew my socks off. It affected a whole lot of things in the cns right from the start. It affected mood and personality and quieted multisensory hallucinations, it affected taste and smell. That change wasn't a leisurely change. It happened suddenly some months in. As a kind of silly disagreement about the definitions of "deficiency" versus "functional deficiency"; that :functional deficiency wasn't a REAL deficiency since it wasn't damage. So when you get a report of hyper MMA or HCY, then you are talking REAL damage. What I found was that there were a whole lot of things that responded to both MeCbl and/or AdoCbl at these normal doses. The large dose came out of Japanese research of 50mg doses with various modes of ingestion and later study with followup of spinal fluid injections of 2.5mg of MeCbl in a group of people with diabetic neuropathies. Many of them improved and stayed improved ass long as the CSF level stayed high. The high dose, I and a number of others who inject MeCbl regularly did a series of trials. We tried 50mg sublingual (at the time 10x5mg jarrow) and found it equivalent to about 7.5 to 10 mg of MeCbl SC injection for the purposes of improving neurological functioning including demyelinated areas improving. So people have lack of AdoCbl with high MMA, some have low MeCbl with high HCY, in the CSF and these cause different damages. Ordinary doses appears to affect functional insufficiencies and the higher doses affect the damages and some neuropathic problems

I will put up the list that distinguishes what the different nutrients affect. It distinguishes the high dose from the normal dose.. The folate appears to have plenty of MeCbl for normal functioning with a normal dose. It may take a year or two for enough healing to see what is left. I already had AdoCbl in the body and taking a once a week 50mg dose. At a week it never goes down far enough to make a noticeable difference. The AdoCbl changes the fats for myelin and is necessary along with methylfolate and MeCbl. If you have drop-foot, lack the ability to feel location, reflexes altered and so on that show up on the part of the list as responding to high dose MeCbl pay attention to those. If they get worse while all the other symptoms are getting better that tells you. If they stay the same, you will know that. If they improve too, that is a possibility. The folate appears to help increase serum half life and concentration of MeCbl. They were speaking of people correcting their blood with folate and NO cobalamins. That is dangerous. It takes very little

Hi @Freddd ,

Now I seem to have changed from "reallyconfused" to "somewhat confused" Thank you so much for the explanation.

I asked that question because, when I first took 1mg enzy sublingually, it really did blew my socks off. As you said, almost all my senses were changed for the better within weeks. More energy, mental clarity, improvement in digestion and so much more. Later when I took 200mcg methylfolate (lmthf from seekinghealth), I became verrrry sick. I was not taking any other supplement except a b complex that includes both folic and folinic acid. I learned it could be paradoxical folate deficiency or donut hole insufficiency. So completely cut folic and folinic and upped my lmthf.. Still lot of folate deficiency symptoms. Canker sores, depression, severe mental fog and flat wide raised lesions on arms and thighs(nobody seems have experienced this?!! What is this? It responds to higher folate doses).

Well now after raising my folate to 9 tablets of 800mcg solar metafolin, most symptoms are gone. But theses symptoms I have never had prior to starting methylfolate. So isn't it absurd that I take small amount of methylfolate get symptoms and to suppress them I take more, and it disappears. What if I don't take methylfolate at all and stick only to methylb12. Whatever good improvements I have had so far I can say they are all only from mb12. Adb12 doesn't do much for me may be because I am able to convert some of mb12 to adb12.

I have so far taken only enzy sublingual exclusively for b12. First time I have bought Oxford biosciences methylb12 powder 40mg. Saline and insulin injections are ready. Going to inject SC to see how much it helps. For now I am taking 7200mcg metafolin in 3 divided doses. I have all the DQ elements and all basics in place for the past 6 months. But honestly, other than mb12 nothing seems to help any further.

I am waiting for your list that distinguishes what different nutrients affect.

Thank you much for helping so many people around the world. I am an Indian (vegetarian). I have benefited so much from your work. All my family is pure vegetarian and everyone is in excellent physical and mental health. So I don't blame the diet.

Thanks again.

 

[Freddd]

@reallyconfused,

I apologize, I got sidetracked. One thing I want to add. Often, only the MOST DEFICIENT NUTRIENT causes symptoms that respond almost immediately. The symptoms that come on after a few days healing starts and make you feel terrible and sicker are refeeding syndrome, usually from group 1, 2a, 2b and group 3. B12 and folate are both light sensitive and have to be protected from the light. If working with liquid b12 (crystal in sterile saline for instance, light causes it to break down and be less effective to positively not good as it breaks down to HyCbl and AquaCbl. B12 can be worked with under a red safelight from photography. As you proceed, what looked like one symptoms my uncover other symptoms as it fades.


SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0
In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

morning joint stiffness and pain
paleness
acid reflux
nausea
daily vomiting
standing with eyes closed, lose balance
hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
glove and stocking anesthesia
neuropathic bladder
unable to release bladder, mild to severe
unable to fully empty the bladder
fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
always feeling cold
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
sleep disorders
non restorative sleep
Night terrors
Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
Sleep paralysis
alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
alterations and loss of taste
taste hallucinations
smell hallucinations
sound hallucinations
visual hallucinations
alterations and loss of smell
loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it in mid word
blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
optic atrophy
centrocecal scotomata
hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
burning muscle pain
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
sore burning tongue

This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

Bursitis
stomach not emptying
frequent vomiting
acid regurgitation
dyspepsia
flatulence
altered bowel habits
abdominal pain
loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
nutrient specific anorexia
intermittent constipation
intermittent diarrhea
irritable bowel syndrome
sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
anorexia
Bulimia
Hypersensitivity to touch
Hypersensitivity to odors
Hypersensitivity to tastes
Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
burning bladder (no UTI)
painful urgency (no UTI)
burning urethra (no UTI)
Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
elevated LDH
big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
platelet dysfunction, low count
white cell changes, low count
hyper segmented neutrophils
headaches
inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
asthma
chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
chronic sinus congestion
dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
chronic infections, many varieties possible
Seborrhic dermatitis
dandruff
eczema
dermatitis
skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
poor hair condition
thin nails
transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
mouth sensitive to hot and cold
sore burning tongue
beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
teeth sensitive to hot and cold
canker sores


with p5p added

Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
impaired white blood cell response
poor resistance to infections
easy bruising
pronounced anemia
macrocytic anemia
megablastic anemia
pernicious anemia
decreased blood clotting
MCV > 93 first warning,
MCV > 97 alert
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

Plus Vitamin E
Child with neural tube defects

mother of child with neural tube defect

These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


lack of dreaming
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
macrocytic anemia
metallic taste in mouth
Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
loss of orgasmic intensity
unsatisfying orgasms
inability to orgasm
loss and/or change of genital sensations
burning genital skin sensation
unable to feel aroused
numb genital skin
low sex hormones

MEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
erectile disfunction men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
low sperm count
poor sperm motility
Poor sperm quality
no sperm


WOMEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone
low estrogen

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
post partum depression
post partum psychosis

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
Frequent miscarriage

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
False positive pap smears, defective cells
menstrual symptoms
amenorrhea


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.



These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.



CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


Elevated CSF Hcy
Low CSF cobalamin
limbs feel stiff
Drowsy


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl
dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
Clumsiness


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin


Slow to adapt to night vision


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF


Difficulty in word finding



CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
demyelinated areas on nerves
subacute combined degeneration
axonal degeneration of spinal cord
unsteadiness of gait
ataxic gait, particularly in dark
positive Romberg
positive Lhermittes
Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
Loss of sense of joint position
sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
sudden "ice pick" pain
decreased reflexes
brisk reflexes
Foot Drop
tripping over toes
injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
general feeling of weakness



These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items


L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl


weight loss involuntary
muscular atrophy
exercise does not build muscle



L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

weight gain, watery fat
edema


L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


mild to extremely severe fatigue
continuous extremely severe fatigue
easy fatigability
severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
weakness
muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
accumulating muscle pains following exertion
sore muscles throughout body
lack of muscle recovery after exercise
High urinary MMA



AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

congestive heart failure
Elevated CSF MMA
Elevated uMMA



MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
heart palpitations


MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
weak pulse



MeCbl - AdoCbl

Confusion
Disorientation
Difficulty in word finding


MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

irritable
depression
SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
mental slowing
personality changes
chronic malaise
poor concentration
moodiness
tiredness
mood swings
memory loss
listlessness
impaired connection to others
mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
dizziness - even unable to walk
Vertigo


MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
Alzheimer's
delirium
dementia
paranoia
delusions
hallucinations - multisensory
anxiety or tension
nervousness
mania
Widespread pain throughout body



A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.

Version 2.21 12/06/2016 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often sufferring REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms.

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious:
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.

Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.

Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone

Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.

Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.

Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects.
Runaway tooth decay
Loss of calcium in bones and teeth

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html

Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.

 

[reallyconfused]

Dan,

As I have said, an unknown percentage have trouble with folinic acid. So here we have a number 81%, have effect. That could be close. So let me make the statement more explicitly. As long as a person has sufficient L-methylfolate folinic acid is not necessary for anyone or sufficient for everyone.

I wasn't putting it in the context of CyCbl, HyCbl and folic acid. In the context of the whole post I had made clear that folinic acid isn't the same. Also that does not change what the meaning of what I meant in this reworded form. NOBODY HAS TO HAVE FOLINIC ACID (NOT NECESSARY) and EVERYONE MUST HAVE L-METHYLFOLATE (NOT SUFFICIENT) (in their body, unspoken).

I trust that my restatement makes clear what I meant. I'm sure it is more satifying in these forms.

Also, I am trying to find the items that work for EVERYBODY, not just those of "normal" genes. Maybe finding myself always in that 19% category (the same as folic acid it might appear) I remove all assumptoins about what "should" work because to be here, most people have multiple casues based on lots of assumptions. As we all know this forum is a hotbed of those with folate related polymorphisms. My suggestion of folates has ALWAYS been get the healing started and then trila the other folates to see if they work for you. Until somebody gets healing started they are not getting any clues to healing. A lack of sucess in getting healing started is the same old illness that got them here. It does tell them that they are not doing something required for healing. Once one gets healing started one can find things that turn healing off or increase healing. Those are the clues needed to solve the problem. So if one trials folinic acid and it doesn't work, they still have to trial l-methylfolate. So if somebody says, "I'm not happy with my healing rate" I'll send them to the same old reasons b12/folate doesn't work. If it still doesn't work after checking all items, then it is likely either a critical cofactor or basic missing or glutathione/NAC. which are all on the list but often ignored.

And because of your own hypersensitivities shared by some others, I do caution on L-carnitine fumarate and have worked out a titration starting at 100mcg of carnitine for hypersensitives.and not make the assumption that everybody can take it. in "normal" doses. I reviewed why it was banned for sale in Canada, a complaint from somebody taking klonopin and they had the expected carnitine response and nobody understood it so they banned it. So, trying to come up with a protocol safe and effective for as many as possible I have to take in account all of us folks that have one thing or another at < 20% proability just the same. What is the safest most effective way to heal? With that as a goal I can suggest l-methylfolafte as most likely to succeed in starting healing for the largest percentage of everyone.. I'll never succeed but then how close can I get? Somebody not being able to utilize folinic acid is a lot more likely than someone having a massive overkill response to (usually) l-carnitine or occasionally AdoCbl. What I hope to be able to do is map to symptoms the ten or so most frequent pathways making the responses predictable.

So I would like to ask a question. As my questionaire was built largely on MeCbl and AdoCbl single dose screening, what I found is that those with no deficiency symptoms have no responses of any kind to either or both, 75% for one, 80% for both. How l-methylfolate fits into that will be posted later. That is a combination effect, not L-methylfolate alone or compared to folinic acid. Does no deficiency no response hold true with L-methylfolate? Do you have any differential effectivness from l-methylfolate? Have you done A-B swtichs for alternating months to see? Was that done with all the folks who found folinic effective? Or would those folks have a differntial effect of L-methylfolate being say 50% more effective? And if so, what would that mean? I don't know. I've never looked for it or had it come out an announce itself. I ran that test and found folinic acid made me very sick in a week or less. Running these A-B trials is part of the whole process for a person who is seeking to optimize their program for their own personal healing.

freddd, any findings on differential effectiveness from l-methyl folate? That is the most difficult supplement to understand I guess.

One more question, does normal 2% pasteurized milk contain any whey significant enough to cause methyl trap?