THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING
- Thread starter Freddd
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For example I was relying for a long time on what I was getting from food for b1 and B5. That turned out not be good enough. Once I got going with adb12 and cleaned up a few things soon those vitamins suddenly became very useful.
adreno
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Hi Freddd, it seems to me like you're reducing all of these illnesses to vitamin B deficiency? I would like to know what exactly you mean by the term "healing". What level of healing are we talking about here? Can anything be healed with vitamin B? If we focus on ME/CFS, many of the subsets include problems such as OI/POTS, hormonal imbalances, autoimmune issues and many others. Can all of these subsets be healed, or normalized, by following your protocol, and breaking the deadlock quartet?
I am aware that neuropathy, and possible other neurological problems can benefit from active Bs. But all the other problems as well? Somehow, I'm skeptical, although I would like for this to be true. Surely, there must be limits to healing. What about adaptive changes that the body goes through? After taking the active Bs the homeostasis will reset itself? How about neurons that are dead, due to excitotoxicity or oxidative stress? To my knowledge, neurogenesis only occurs in the hippocampus. Healing implies that some tissue is broken, and can be repaired, but is this always how disease occurs? To my knowledge, it isn't. Could you be more precise in explaning what exactly you mean when you talk about "healing"?
Lou
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Thanks, Fred, I'll order the Sogar Dessicated liver. Wish I knew a bodybuilder, could pass off this bucket of Uni-liver crap I received, lol.
Uh-oh, just started to order Solgar and saw they had 100mcgs of added cyanocobalamin. Knowing that, pretty sure you'd withdraw your recommendation, so won't order Solgar, either.
Lou
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Hi dbkita,
You're obviously well versed on these biochemical cycles, perhaps you can help me. I can't seem to restart the positive effects I got when I first began protocol a year ago, before I crashed a few months later. The positive effects were almost immediate, started gaining weight and muscle quickly, much clearer thinking, better mood, sleep, etc. Even the half moons in finger nails began to return. If I remember correctly, that was an 'oh, lookey what's happening' moment, almost immediately, and revealed something was definitely going on.
While I realize there are much worse problems we need to fix, this was my signal for start up, and I'm not getting it now (except for thumbs, half moons have disappeared) and wondering if it may be pointing toward my 'most limiting factor'. If it matters, I have the mthfr 1298 mutation. Do you, or someone else here, have any idea where the break in the cycle might be occuring and what I might try to improve matters?
Might also mention, like Dan, I cannot tolerate b5 or b6. Somewhat like him, I get a niacin flush, but it usually takes at least 25 mgs, and begins within minutes.
@ adreno, Of course Fred can speak quite ably for himself, but this post contains brief description of one person's experience with healing effects resulting directly from this protocol. Now, if I can just get it going again.
Freddd
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Hi Adreno,
For starters, have you looked at the symptoms list over on the BASICS thread? These are the list of symptoms that generally go along with these listed diseases AND for the most part, are capable of repair to some extent up to 100%. A new version with nutrients that repaired them will be posted soon. The things we call diseases, syndromes (probably more accurate), and so forth. So on May 20, 2003, I had 200 symptoms of the 300 list, and about 300 on a prototype 400 list which really gives more detail but doesn't change anything. It may make finer distictions to be made. I weighed more or less 285 pounds. My abdomen was swollen and hard like a basketball with fluid. I had high blood pressure. I had trouble breathing from the pressure. My heart had trouble beating from the pressure. My doc called it congestive heart failure. My top of leg thigh muscle was the thickness of my thumb. I had massive muscle atrophy over my whole body. I was skin and bones under the watery fat. I floated with my head completely out of the water, who needs a life jacket? I had IBS, FMS, CFS, (ME symtoms but not diagnosed in the USA) severe chronic pain, RSD, Subacute Combined degeneration, sleep disorders, hormone disorders, disordered disorders, autoimmune issues, at one point I was falling and close to a wheelchair. I had no balance for 17 years. Exercise intolerance, MCS, asthma, allergies, dozens of kinds of pains, multisensory hallucinations (no delusions, just neurological noise manifesting as hallucinations from smell to vision and hearing and taste and touch. I could go on for pages like this just what I had. I haven't seen anybody here sicker with more things wrong though there are an unfortunate set that approximately equaled my degree of dys ease. I had been treated for dozens of things by approximately 100 doctors and not one of them succeeded. Oh sure, the Pain Clinic stepped in 2001 and gave me enough morphine I could manage a decent night’s sleep for the first time in 30 years. I slept 16 hours that first night. That was most helpful symptom management, but not healing.
I would have been long dead at this point, after a short stint in a wheel chair, if I hadn't healed substantially. That list of diseases, CFS, FMS, Supra Nuclear Palsy, Parkinson's, MS, Subacute combined degeneration, ALS, for instance, includes the diseases in which studies show depressed CSF levels of cobalamin, and additional studies have also identified elevated MMA ANDOR HCY. Other studies have shown various neurological responses with all these various people to B12s given in various ways and trials. Since most of those were 3 months or so, no healing occurred. Do you know what the difference is between MS and SACD? Let’s see. With MS “b12 deficiency is ruled out” by having a serum level over 160pg/ml (PA threshold level). However, as MS also is known to have a CNS deficiency of b12 how does a ridiculously low threshold on body level rule out b12 deficiency? Seems contradictory to me. Also, lucky me, SACD has approximately equal bilateral damage while MS tends to be more one sided. Did you know that MS responds to the Deadlock Quartet just the same as SACD. Both MS and SACD have demyelization in the cord and brain. Some of this is permanent damage and some can be repaired. I’ve managed to repair about 75% of the SACD damage and holding. Also, I lost 85 pounds of water. I didn’t diet. It’s the same color it always was. I then lost 40 pounds of fat and put on 40-50 pounds of muscle. All of that occurred with the Deadlock quartet, in stages mapped out near the beginning of this thread. I no longer have CFS, FMS, IBS, RSD, asthma, MCS, seasonal allergies, daily vomiting, body wide inflammation, most of the peripheral neuropathies (hard to tell the details when the spinal nerves are not working right), congestive heart failure is gone, exercise intolerance is gone, balance is largely back. I am no longer diagnosable with any of these things because I am down to a handful of symptoms, mostly attributable to a car crash and other physical traumas along the way, and SACD damage that just keeps on giving.
I am aware that neuropathy, and possible other neurological problems can benefit from active Bs. But all the other problems as well?
All the other problems especially. These are the easy ones. They are functional. Go look at hundreds of enzyme reactions in the body. Look for “ATP”. How many of these reactions won’t happen if there is not enough ATP to power them? Hundreds? Thousands? What about the many things that go wrong with broken methylation? Hundreds? Thousands? All the hormones that don’t get made, all the neurotransmitters that don’t get made, all the myelin that doesn’t get made, all the enzymes that don’t get made or reacted. All the cells that don’t get made or are flawed. B12 deficiencies cause PAP smear cell problems. The things you are saying go back to 60 years of skewed research that defined IF insufficiency and serum b12 under 160pg/m/ as the real b12 deficiency. This makes 300 or more symptoms into mystery diseases, These are what clear up most easily and quickly.
How about neurons that are dead, due to excitotoxicity or oxidative stress?
And you KNOW that how? Most of the things people here are calling excitotoxicity is ATP and/or methylation startup or induced deficiencies. MeCbl protects against excitotoxicity. There are lots and lots of totally wrong theories that fling words around carelessly creating barriers to healing. Excitotoxicity and detox are perhaps the two most abused words, most poorly defined. Such words are assigned to all sorts of things that most certainly are not them. They are applied to so many different things it’s like the old show “To Tell The Truth. Will the real Mr Excitotoxicity stand up? Will the real Ms Detox stand up?
The Deadlock Quartet, in the process of clearing up hundreds of symptoms incidentally will change hundreds or thousands of resultant reactions. After about a year of effective nutrition, there are remaining symptoms standing out like new islands as the water level goes down. These are the things that then need additional help, damage and co-morbidities. Most of the homeostasis will return without having to do anything special about them. They don’t change all at once because each reaction has many dependencies and they can only resolve in a certain order. Both methylation and ATP have to be working in order for most of the things to resolve and heal.
I use ”heal” in the popular form. You know, feeling good, symptoms gone away, regaining capacities, being able to live a normal life, not-disabled, healthier. No test results at all are needed to convince somebody that they have healed in some microscopic way. I don’t have to convince somebody paying $10,000 for treatment that they are getting their money’s worth despite feeling worse or no healing effects. I’m talking about outright in your face healing that everybody can see. For me that much difference was seeable each 3 weeks for more than a year. When my ex-wife hadn’t seen me for 9 months during the second year at one point, she knocked on the door. I let her in. She looked right past me and asked the other person sitting there “Where’s Fred, he was supposed to meet me here”. When I said “right here” her jaw hit the ground with the most amazing sequence of expressions crossing her face. When I went back to the camping club resort we had gone to while married, nobody at all recognized me from 3 years before despite my knowing their names and all.
Now we get to the tougher parts, Parkinson’s, ALS, MS, SNP and SACD. These all involve damage to the brain ANDOR cord. Those on the MS and SACD line (MeCbl and l-methylfolate) tend to be energized and euphoric on these nutrients in the beginning. They tend to immediately go out and overdo because they feel so good, causing an immediate severe crash. Those on the Pre-Parkinson’s line have additional symptoms that appear to revolve around lack of ATP production (and dopamine) in the limbic system. For many amounts of LCF less than 1 mg can produce such severity of reaction when the limbic system starts activating that it is “intolerable”. I honestly don’t know if that damage can be healed. Recent studies indicate that the brain damage occurs slowly over a 20+ year period of non-functioning mitochondria. How far can the damage progress before the damage takes over? How much of the damage can be repaired? I’ve seen amazing things, people up out of wheelchairs and all that, with MeCbl and cofactors, with both SACD and MS. The other question is can additional damage be stopped?
Just to add my experience with B6.
B6 in the non-active form aggravates my neuropathy -- increased in tingling, in hands feet, legs face, mouth etc.
Not so sure P5P does the same, seems to, can't be definitive. I have high levels of P5P in the blood -- very high in fact, but have been able to get them down to just above normal levels recently, simply by not supplementing with B6 (this reduces the some of the intensity of neuropathy but certainly does not remove it.).
(I have only ever taking small amounts of B6, nothing that should correlate with such a high blood reading.)
Despite high levels of P5P in blood, Rich's interpretation of my Organic Acids Urine test was that I have low B6. Blood ALP levels were fine, suggesting high P5P not simply result of low zinc -- thus reduced Alkaline Phosphatase..
Rich Van K also suggested a possible partial B2 deficiency, his logic:
"I've been doing some more thinking about your case. More and more, I suspect that the problem is a partial deficiency in vitamin B2.
Here's how it could work: The liver is going to get its B2, even when B2 is scarce, bodywide, because the liver is in position to receive what comes in from the gut, via the portal vein. Therefore, if there is a partial deficiency of B2, the liver will have it, but perhaps the other organs will have a deficiency. If this is true, the liver would be able to phosphorylate the B6 and put it out in the blood as P5P. Then, if there was sufficient alkaline phosphatase, it would be able to remove the phosphate so that the B6 could diffuse into the cells. However, if the cells do not have enough B2, this B6 will not be phosphorylated, and it will then exert backpressure on the reaction that is supplying it via the dephosphorylation of P5P on the outside of the cells."
I have tried B2 (R5P) on it's own to see if it has a different impact then when taking it as part of a complex. I could only tolerate small levels -- and broke it up throughout the day. No noticeable improvement, in general symptoms or neuropathy. Cleared sinus a little. At times seemed to help sleep. If I took to much just really stirred things up.
I think there is something significant in the high blood levels of P5P and reactions to taking B6, but I've not seen or read anything that is revealing (apart from Rich's supposition).
Rich, you are sorely missed.
B6 in the non-active form aggravates my neuropathy -- increased in tingling, in hands feet, legs face, mouth etc.
Not so sure P5P does the same, seems to, can't be definitive. I have high levels of P5P in the blood -- very high in fact, but have been able to get them down to just above normal levels recently, simply by not supplementing with B6 (this reduces the some of the intensity of neuropathy but certainly does not remove it.).
(I have only ever taking small amounts of B6, nothing that should correlate with such a high blood reading.)
Despite high levels of P5P in blood, Rich's interpretation of my Organic Acids Urine test was that I have low B6. Blood ALP levels were fine, suggesting high P5P not simply result of low zinc -- thus reduced Alkaline Phosphatase..
Rich Van K also suggested a possible partial B2 deficiency, his logic:
"I've been doing some more thinking about your case. More and more, I suspect that the problem is a partial deficiency in vitamin B2.
Here's how it could work: The liver is going to get its B2, even when B2 is scarce, bodywide, because the liver is in position to receive what comes in from the gut, via the portal vein. Therefore, if there is a partial deficiency of B2, the liver will have it, but perhaps the other organs will have a deficiency. If this is true, the liver would be able to phosphorylate the B6 and put it out in the blood as P5P. Then, if there was sufficient alkaline phosphatase, it would be able to remove the phosphate so that the B6 could diffuse into the cells. However, if the cells do not have enough B2, this B6 will not be phosphorylated, and it will then exert backpressure on the reaction that is supplying it via the dephosphorylation of P5P on the outside of the cells."
I have tried B2 (R5P) on it's own to see if it has a different impact then when taking it as part of a complex. I could only tolerate small levels -- and broke it up throughout the day. No noticeable improvement, in general symptoms or neuropathy. Cleared sinus a little. At times seemed to help sleep. If I took to much just really stirred things up.
I think there is something significant in the high blood levels of P5P and reactions to taking B6, but I've not seen or read anything that is revealing (apart from Rich's supposition).
Rich, you are sorely missed.
Lotus97
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I made a partial recovery without taking B12 or folate. Maybe I would have recovered quicker with methylation though.
Freddd
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As far as understanding MeCbl better: http://health101.org/art_methylcobalamin.htm and it has footnotes. It was written before l-methylfolate and has some things that could be changed. A sample paragraph.
The coenzyme form of vitamin B12 is known as methylcobalamin or methyl B12.It's the only form of vitamin B12 which can directly participate in homocysteine metabolism.In addition, converting homocysteine to methionine via methyl B12 generates an increased supply of SAMe (S-adenosyl methionine), the body's most important methyl donor.Indeed, some of the benefits of methyl B12, such as protection from neurotoxicity, appear to derive from increased production of SAMe8, 9.Methyl B12 has also been reported to be neurotrophic or growth-promoting for nerve cells10, 11, a property which may help regenerate central and peripheral nervous tissues damaged in disorders such as amyotrophic lateral sclerosis12 and diabetic peripheral neuropathy13.
...
When most of us think of vitamin B12, the molecule we really have in mind is cyanocobalamin or cyano B12.As its name suggests, cyano B12 has a cyanide group (CN) attached, whereas methyl B12 carries a methyl group (CH3) instead.Very little of the body's natural B12 is in the cyano form under normal circumstances; exceptions are in cases of cyanide poisoning or chronic smoking, both of which can raise cyanocobalamin levels. The fact that most of our vitamin pills contain cyano rather than methyl B12 is largely an accident of history, the result of using charcoal to filter extracts during the isolation of B12.Unknown to the early researchers who first isolated B12, the traces of cyanide present in such charcoal rapidly convert all natural forms of B12, including methyl B12 into the more stable cyano form.As a result, the discovery of the B12 coenzymes and their metabolic role was delayed for years.
The coenzyme form of vitamin B12 is known as methylcobalamin or methyl B12.It's the only form of vitamin B12 which can directly participate in homocysteine metabolism.In addition, converting homocysteine to methionine via methyl B12 generates an increased supply of SAMe (S-adenosyl methionine), the body's most important methyl donor.Indeed, some of the benefits of methyl B12, such as protection from neurotoxicity, appear to derive from increased production of SAMe8, 9.Methyl B12 has also been reported to be neurotrophic or growth-promoting for nerve cells10, 11, a property which may help regenerate central and peripheral nervous tissues damaged in disorders such as amyotrophic lateral sclerosis12 and diabetic peripheral neuropathy13.
...
When most of us think of vitamin B12, the molecule we really have in mind is cyanocobalamin or cyano B12.As its name suggests, cyano B12 has a cyanide group (CN) attached, whereas methyl B12 carries a methyl group (CH3) instead.Very little of the body's natural B12 is in the cyano form under normal circumstances; exceptions are in cases of cyanide poisoning or chronic smoking, both of which can raise cyanocobalamin levels. The fact that most of our vitamin pills contain cyano rather than methyl B12 is largely an accident of history, the result of using charcoal to filter extracts during the isolation of B12.Unknown to the early researchers who first isolated B12, the traces of cyanide present in such charcoal rapidly convert all natural forms of B12, including methyl B12 into the more stable cyano form.As a result, the discovery of the B12 coenzymes and their metabolic role was delayed for years.
Lotus97
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What about biotin? I've taken anywhere from 2000-5000 mcg in the past, but now 800 mcg really seems to set me off. I know biotin is involved in krebs so maybe that's part of it. I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but has anyone else had this? I have a bottle off 5000 mcg biotin capsules which I could test to make sure it's the biotin which is causing the issue, but I don't feel like doing any tests at the moment.
Freddd
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Hi Lotus,
Can you describe as specifically as possible please what " to set me off" means? A number of people have discussed big reactions to Biotin. I've been doing some on-off trials of 1000mcg of biotin. I can't say I notice anything at all. That is about all I know right now.
Lotus97
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Similar to how I felt when I took too much methylfolate. Sort of like drinking too much coffee. The weird thing is I just remembered this started happening during a period when I wasn't taking any B12. However, I had only been taking around 200 mcg biotin for about a month prior to that plus I was drinking a lot of egg protein shakes and eggs are supposed to deplete biotin so maybe I was depleted of biotin when I added the 800 mcg (for a total of around 1000 mcg a day). I don't know why I was able to tolerate more biotin in the past. It seems like other things are setting me off too. I'm going to cut back on my P5P because that also might be causing problems. I really should try increasing the dose of biotin just to make sure it really is what's causing the problems for me.
A number of people have discussed big reactions to Biotin. I've been doing some on-off trials of 1000mcg of biotin. I can't say I notice anything at all.
I assume different people are going to react differently to different supplements. There's probably a lot of reasons for this, but that's interesting that other people have had the same reaction. Adreno mentioned he had a big burst of energy after taking biotin. Hopefully he'll comment on this.
Freddd
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So if for some reason it is low enough it could be a blockade to the Krebs cycle? So it could be a big kickoff for some people? Why might biotin be so low? How is it supposed to get made?
I think what's more often the case is that if there's any cell toxicity (heavy metals, etc.) or lack of intracellular carnitine or other energy co-factors, or a lack of downstream resources (cortisol, thyroid hormone, etc.), pumping in biotin just cranks up the system way too much and then it crashes. Biotin in many cases is probably better left until most other things are sorted out, especially if you're already crashing from it!
Sorry I edited and corrected my earlier post.
Biotin stimulates the main anaplerotic reaction for the Krebs cycle. This is big in liver gluconeogenesis. Btw it is also the cofactor for the succinyl COA chain (different point in that path where adb12 also works I believe).
Think of an anaplerotic reaction as a backdoor to replenish an intermediate in the Krebs cycle. This however is an important one. It takes one ATP, but if the rest of the Krebs cycle is working it will of course make multiple ATP molecules (the whole point of the Krebs cycle).
The front door is pyruvate to acetyl COA via pyruvate dehydrogenase and then into the Krebs cycle. Pyruvate dehydrogenase needs TPP. Got that mixed with biotin in the previous post. Carnitine plays a big role in loading the front door of course, as to some extent alpha lipoic acid. We also should not forget COQ10 that manages the electron transport chain.
So I agree with Jeffrez that without a functioning Krebs cycle, too much backloading via anaplerotic reactions will just spin things up and maybe cause an energy spike. Before taking adb12 I used to not be able to tolerate much biotin as I would have almost akin to a sugar crash. But now I take 2000 mcg a day as it is beneficial. I am even thinking of moving that up, but I plan to introduce L-carnitine and try pantethine first.
Freddd
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Hi Jeffrez,
Order can be very important. Some things don't work at all and some don't work right. . Also, one of the reasons I liked the B-Right was that it had enough of all these various factors to have a good chance at breaking most of the secondary deadlocks without being overkill. Its also why I like to start with both active b12s and l-methylfolate, its about dealing with the most frequently occurring secondaries fist and then finding those that are not total blocks.
Freddd,
Where does immune system response fall in order of healing and the deficiency decision tree? This is one of my wife's first symptoms to come back. Historically, her chronic sore throat/upper respiratory can return and she is overall pretty healthy. It lasts for probably twice as long when she is not taking her vitamins regularly. No one else around her catches it or seems to give it to her. I am never sure what the deficiency is, so we up the methylfolate and b12. She doesn't seem to need potassium. But it could be some other co-factor I'm missing.
Also, could this just be general response to dysfucntional methylation cycle?
Where does immune system response fall in order of healing and the deficiency decision tree? This is one of my wife's first symptoms to come back. Historically, her chronic sore throat/upper respiratory can return and she is overall pretty healthy. It lasts for probably twice as long when she is not taking her vitamins regularly. No one else around her catches it or seems to give it to her. I am never sure what the deficiency is, so we up the methylfolate and b12. She doesn't seem to need potassium. But it could be some other co-factor I'm missing.
Also, could this just be general response to dysfucntional methylation cycle?
triffid113
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Interesting. 2g is the exact dose that I take. Dannybex, I was wondering how you are doing now, after some time has passed, regarding zinc and copper? I am still lo wcopper (I can't take copper and zinc together as it gives me an upset stomach, so I often neglect the copper pill) and I also have a heck of a time keeping up with zinc loss due to allergies. In fact just 2 days ago I was suffering low stomach acid due to that and upped my zinc to 50mg (despite that I am on Montelukast, but that does not do a complete job of fixing my allergies like Flonase used to before it stopped working for me), which fixed it (for now). But I also quit the Montelukast (I was having shortness of breath and the covers felt too heavy for my chest at night, I was taking an antibiotic as well, which was prolly the cause, but I got off both of them to be sure). So now the zinc requirement will rise astronomically depending on the weather (dryness in the air).
I used to think that autistic people have trouble with metallothionein and thus have the zinc & copper problems, but now I think my rproblems with these metals is due to allergies (which are common in autistics). Not real sure. It's hard to parse things out when you have a bazillion issues. Have you learned anything over time?
Triff
I think part of the reason I'm having eye trouble lately -- just part of the reason -- is perhaps due to copper, or 'biovavailable' copper being released as I increase my zinc (which is needed to convert beta carotene and retinol to retinal in the eyes). I'm really not certain. My NutraEval copper was low, and also low in hair analysis, but was told by these hair 'experts' that I had high 'hidden' copper stores in my liver. I do know of another person who had bad eye issues until she lowered her copper (which also was supposedly high).
?????? !!!
p.s. The only reason I tend to give some credence to the hair analysis theory, is that whenever I took a copper supplement -- especially the last few times -- my anxiety, overstimulation, etc., increased big time. Made me feel I was going to lose it completely...