The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[Sasha]

Sorry for not responding to you on this question. You are correct. RS is basically a zero glycemic food. It's really just a prebiotic. And Kresser is a promoter of RS supplementation. So, you should be fine.

Hi Ripley - I don't think Kresser is banning white potatoes for the 'reset' part of his diet because of sugar issues but because it's in the nightshade family. He says so on this page:

http://paleologix.com/about/dietary-guidelines/

Slightly strange because he only bans the other nightshades for people with autoimmune problems, as he says further down.

It's the 'nightshadey-ness' I suppose I'm really hoping has been washed out of the potato starch during its processing.

 

[Ripley]

It's the 'nightshadey-ness'

Ah, yes. You're right. Most people who pay attention to their health already know if they have nightshade intolerance or not. I think you would know, but he's right that it would be judicious to remove all nightshades if you were trying to "eliminate" suspected toxins and then see what you can add in or not.

If you are feeling good with PS, I would continue with it for now. Unless you are particularly sensitive, the toxins should all be gone from PS. In the 1800s they discovered they could to make PS from the worst potatoes with the most toxins and the starch was still clean and free of those toxins when it was examined by scientists under a microscope and by eating it cooked. But, you have to test on yourself to know for sure. For all we know, and this is just speculation, some nightshade intolerances might happen from certain inopportune bacteria reacting to some RS. But, as we know, cooked potatoes don't contain that much RS.

If you aren't feeling so great with added PS, try consuming green plantains in smoothies or dehydrated as chips, or with plantain flour in lieu of potato starch. If you feel good with added PS, stick with it for now.

 

[Sasha]

Ah, yes. You're right. Most people who pay attention to their health already know if they have nightshade intolerance or not. I think you would know, but he's right that it would be judicious to remove all nightshades if you were trying to "eliminate" suspected toxins and then see what you can add in or not.

If you are feeling good with PS, I would continue with it for now. Unless you are particularly sensitive, the toxins should all be gone from PS. In the 1800s they discovered they could to make PS from the worst potatoes with the most toxins and the starch was still clean and free of those toxins when it was examined by scientists under a microscope and by eating it cooked. But, you have to test on yourself to know for sure. For all we know, and this is just speculation, some nightshade intolerances might happen from certain inopportune bacteria reacting to some RS. But, as we know, cooked potatoes don't contain that much RS.

If you aren't feeling so great with added PS, try consuming green plantains in smoothies or dehydrated as chips, or with plantain flour in lieu of potato starch. If you feel good with added PS, stick with it for now.

Hard for me to know if I've got a nightshade intolerance - I've only recently realised that some of my symptoms are related to allergens (I've identified gluten as worsening my chronic sinusitis and cashews and eggs as giving me eczema). I think I need to go through an exclusion diet while paying attention to those things.

I haven't noticed any bad effects from PS. I think I'll continue with it.

 

[xjhuez]

I've been ramping up my RS intake for a few weeks now, and it wasn't until I hit 3 tbsp RS + 1 tsp of psyllium that I noticed an effect (taken in the AM with 12oz water and a small meal). I can't quantify it, obviously, but I do feel noticeably better physically, mentally and my bowel movements are also improved. A big thanks to everyone who contributes here!

Earlier in the thread I noticed folks mentioning something called a "herxheimer reaction". I googled it briefly and see it's what I'd call "die-off". How does one identify if that's truly an issue? I am doing well on RS, a prebiotic, but taking probiotics almost always makes me feel ill. The Jarrow EPS and other higher "potency" ones in particular make me feel awful. Would herxheimer be a possibility? Something else?

 

[Gestalt]

So, it's not to say that we shouldn't eat pectin. We should! But, getting pectin is pretty easy if you eat the right foods. And I think the evidence is overwhelming that RS needs to be part of the fermentation process if you want healthy production of the most beneficial SCFAs, like butyrate.

That was my mistake stating that GOS comes from breast milk. Got it confused with all the talk on infant formula. I also realized the caloriesproper blog is biased to a low carb narrative. I appreciate your critiques.

I believe diversity is key, so I'm thinking of mixing GOS, PS, Plantain flour, Cocoa flavonols, Pectin, maybe a little Psyllium with bifido bifidus and infantis, thus making a super-charged bifido booster.

Also taking SBO's and several other probiotics for variety at other times of the day.

 

[Ripley]

That was my mistake stating that GOS comes from breast milk. Got it confused with all the talk on infant formula. I also realized the caloriesproper blog is biased to a low carb narrative. I appreciate your critiques.

I believe diversity is key, so I'm thinking of mixing GOS, PS, Plantain flour, Cocoa flavonols, Pectin, maybe a little Psyllium with bifido bifidus and infantis, thus making a super-charged bifido booster.

Also taking SBO's and several other probiotics for variety at other times of the day.

It's never a bad idea to diversify — in fact, it's highly recommended. Hopefully you get some good results with GOS, but it's worth pointing out that GOS is just a stop-gap for the formula manufacturer. Real human breast milk actually has 200 different “human milk oligosaccharides”. In a way, human breast milk has more "fiber" than protein!

 

[MeSci]

(re image/table which I tried and failed to copy and paste)

I am encouraged that cellulose is quite good for producing butyrate. As a vegan I get plenty of cellulose!

 

[xjhuez]

One surprising thing is that maybe Pectin is better than RS-2!?!?

Abstract here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23831725

The full paper can be found here: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=foodscidiss

Those two seem to be different. I believe this is the full paper - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1075996413001029

Reading it now; very interesting.

1) Am I missing it somewhere, or does it not say what the "control" consists of?

2) iin vitro fermentation, via frozen stool samples. o.0

3) The RS is amylose corn starch, not PS.

4) I'm struck by all the tested fibers strongly lowering the % of Firmicutes, Clostridia and Clostridiales. I assume they're lower because other bacteria increase in absolute number relative to them, rather than them dying off.

 

[Ripley]

4) I'm struck by all the tested fibers strongly lowering the % of Firmicutes, Clostridia and Clostridiales. I assume they're lower because other bacteria increase in absolute number relative to them, rather than them dying off.

Well, again, in vitro is a bit different than in vivo. In vivo would be better. So I wouldn't put all your faith in the results of that study.

Nevertheless, fibers can enduce die-off by increasing SCFA production, through fermentation, which in turn lowers the pH as the colon (or colon simulator, in this case) becomes more acidic. The beneficial acidity tends to kill off pathogens.

 

[Ripley]

Not that anyone needs much convincing, but here's another great quote from Tim Steele on the evidence for our dietary requirements in consuming a wide range of fibers.

tatertot // Dec 3, 2013 at 12:54 — I was just reading this paper: http://physrev.physiology.org/content/81/3/1031.full In it, they calculate that humans need 300-400 mmol of SCFA to be produced by gut bugs daily, and this requires 80g of fiber. They recommend that people eat the ‘average’ fiber of most Americans, which is 15-28g, then get another 5-10g of OS (oligosaccharides–from milk, inulin, psyllium etc…) and fill the remaining requirement with RS at 40-50g/day, but also note that 32-42g/day of RS will fill the requirements for SCFA as shown in other studies.

This is almost exactly as Richard and I have been doing without ever reading this! 2-4TBS of Bob’s PS, some good fruit, dairy, and veggies and a lot of RS rich foods and you are good to go. Sort of like….Richard’s ‘new paleo’ guidelines!

Funny, though, about the study I linked, it never makes the leap to supplementing with a raw starch, but rather concludes with a plea to governing agencies to include RS in their fiber requirements. [LINK]

See. RS is just a part of the equation. It just happens to be difficult to obtain in the modern diet.

 

[Gestalt]

Well, again, in vitro is a bit different than in vivo. In vivo would be better. So I wouldn't put all your faith in the results of that study.

In vivo has several other thousand confounding variables that are nearly impossible to account for using the best of modern technology. Therefore measuring things in vivo is exponentially more difficult leading possibly to highly flawed readings and conclusions. I think in many cases I may trust results in vitro more where variables can be isolated and controlled and individual gut-biome variance has less of a confounding factor. I think the important thing to remember is that any study (vivo or vitro) having to do with the black box that is the gut-biome needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The cumulative or meta data will give you the best information rather than any single study or experiment.

 

[finalgates]

what dosager of pectin are better than RS(at what dosages) for bifido?

 

[Ripley]

The tatertot quote, above, is referring to how RS fits into what researchers have called the "carbohydrate gap". Basically researchers have calculated that human SCFA production can't be fulfilled — particularly in the Western diet — without RS.

Here's a quote from the report that tatertot was referring to in that quote:

"The “carbohydrate gap” is the discrepancy between NSP intakes and calculations of bacterial activity of the large bowel microflora and supports a significant contribution by RS. Individuals in affluent westernized countries may consume up to 28 g NSP/day. However, much larger quantities, possibly as much as 80 g, of fermentable carbohydrate are needed to sustain the biomass and account for SCFA production, and NSP may only provide 25% of that requirement. [...]

"In humans, RS and OS could close the carbohydrate gap, but consumption of OS appears to be self-limiting due to osmotic effects and may contribute only 5–10 g/day." [LINK]

And here's another description of the "carbohydrate gap" in layman's terms:

In the large bowel, resistant starch is a highly fermentable dietary fiber. In fact, resistant starch is believed to be the most significant contributor to colonic short-chain fatty acid (SCFA) production (Bird et al., 2000, Toping and Clifton, 2001). This is based on estimations that 60-80g/day of fermentable substrate are needed to sustain the metabolism of the colonic microbiota; yet dietary fiber consumption in Westernized countries is rarely above 20 g/day (Institute of Medicine, 2002a). Oligosaccharides, endogenous secretions, and indigestible protein may contribute some fermentable substrate, but resistant starch is believed to contribute to the majority of this "carbohydrate gap" (Topping et al., 2003, Nugent, 2005). [LINK]

So, that's what RS does for us, in a nutshell. It closes the "carbohydrate gap" that allows us to fulfill our maximum SCFA output in conjunction with the other fibers.

 

[Ripley]

Here's a fantastic blog about microbiota musings:

http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com

Heisenbug was a bit skeptical of Tim Steele's American Gut Project results, in this post:

Resistant Starch: Case closed? Not so fast.

Tatertot responded and they had a great exchange. Heisenbug followed up with this post:

Gut vs. Gut: This is how & why Resistant Starch is working

and this post:

Was I too hard on Bifidobacteria?

He seems to have an open mind and the critical reviews of the role of RS are excellent reads. Nevertheless, even Heisenbug seems convinced that RS consumption is necessary. Whether he gets most things right or wrong, I can't say (no one can), but it's a really great blog covering these complex topics.

 

[thomas_3000]

Going off on another tangent here: Does anyone has a formulated opinion about the use of butyric acid (in the form of sodium butyrate) in the treatment of dysbiosis?

There's an extensive post on it here, by Stephan Guyenet: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.nl/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html
Keep in mind that this was written in 2009, way before the RS 'craze'.

Here are my thoughts on it:
Sodium butyrate has been shown to be successful in treating a range of GI disorders (Chron's, UC), both through oral supplementation and the use of enemas (research examples are in the Guyenet article). Since butyrate lowers the ph of the colon (makes it more acidic) I suspect that butyrate might be very helpful in improving gut health. The lowering of the ph of the colon is also one of the benefits that resistant starch offers. RS feeds bacteria that produce butyrate which lowers the ph. Sodium butyrate does this directly. Thus, it seems, that combining butyrate supplementation with RS (and possibly other fibers) will create an even more pronounced effect. Another benefit is that supplementation with butyrate will directly decrease the colon's ph, while with RS and other fibers you might be feeding the wrong bacteria, and thus the colon's ph might increase resulting in a higher degree of dysbiosis and worse symptoms.

This ties in well with Dave Asprey's bulletproof coffee and the bulletproof diet. Bulletproof coffee is basically coffee with a shitload of butter and coconut or MCT oil. Until recently I was a proponent of the Bulletproof Diet, as it made me feel somewhat better. Yes, a lot of people notice good results with an increase of butter/coconut oil intake, but what you essentially do is that you bypass the trillions of bacteria in your colon that will produce the butyrate (and acetate,etc) for you (for free!), if you just feed them enough. I've heard Asprey talk about that he's sensitive to close to everything (hence his affinity with mycotoxins) and that the Bulletproof Diet works well for him. As a result I believe he is doing a low-FODMAP approach of his diet. I've also heard him say that he basically doesn't fart on his diet. Hmm.. wonder why? Might there be close to zero colonic fermentation taking place? I believe so. It might just be that he isn't feeding his gut microbiota. He's tried RS and reportedly stopped with the RS supplementation because he was afraid he was feeding the bad bugs. In his case that probably is true because he probably has a severe dysbiosis and the only thing that's keeping that somewhat under control is his enormous intake of butter.

The solution is obviously not just to increase butyric acid intake. But in combination with the right fibers it might result in a synergistic effect (?)

Thoughts?

 

[Beyond]

Bulletproof coffee is basically coffee with a shitload of butter and coconut or MCT oil.

Not really an option for someone suffering from steatorrhea, me and a lot of others with inflammed intestines have that. One day I took too much organic traditionally fermented butter and it gave me greasy diarreah. So much for the butter butyrate.

Sodium and magnesium butyrate are very interesting supps that I would want to try, but probably resistant starch is a cheaper supplement with a broader positive effect.

 

[brenda]

@Ripley

After a stool analysis my doctor wants me to take Galactomune prebiotic, Ther-Biotic factors 1 and 4 (4 strains of Bifido and Lactobacillus rhamnosus) Mutaflor, Mastic gum and Nystatin to get rid of candida and strep. I am up to 1 Tbs RS and taking bifido already. Would you say it is okay to start on the doctors recommendations?

 

[South]

Butyrate -- This researcher's link discusses butyrate's effects in a mouse study: " massively increased the function of their mitochondria, the tiny power plants of the cell.".

Wow. So would raising butyrate levels mean energy for people with ME? Sorry if this has already been discussed here.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.nl/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html

 

[Christopher]

Anyone combining RS with other forms of fermentable fibers?

 

[xjhuez]

Anyone combining RS with other forms of fermentable fibers?

Psyllium. Considering apple pectin and beta-glucan.