Taurine & Beta-Alanine

[Rand56]

For me, taurine causes terrible insomnia, even in tiny amounts first thing in the morning. One of my doctors told me he's affected the same way.

He and I must be in a really small minority because taurine is in so many sleep and relaxation supplements.

Include me in on that minority, along with you and your doctor. Taurine gives me insomnia.

 

[Rand56]

For anyone who has problems with taurine disrupting sleep, @Aerowallah may have a good explanation for this...

"Cause and effect are a bitch. I didn't have the onslaught of detox symptoms or food sensitivities yet when my retest showed elevated glutamate. So I think the taurine led to insomnia. If taurine is inhibitory then glutamate (excitatory) may have elevated to balance taurine off as it accumulated beyond the point I could excrete. NCBI study shows a relatonship. Glutamate certainly is anxiety producing when its effects are untimely (3am!) or unwanted. I agree with Rand and think taurine's good and bad effects are cumulative. I suppose undermethylators are more prone to accumulating toxicities of all kinds. Hence my preference for food and patience over pills."

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ne-kavinace-detox-caffeine.37356/#post-593676

 

[Gondwanaland]

There must be a reason as to why energy drinks contain 1g Taurine.

 

[xks201]

There must be a reason as to why energy drinks contain 1g Taurine.

Probably so to minimize heart attacks from them otherwise. Lol

 

[Gondwanaland]

Probably so to minimize heart attacks from them otherwise. Lol

Why would Red Bull for instance cause a heart attack?

B2 1,3mg
Niacin 16mg
B5 5mg
B6 1,3mg
CyB12 1mcg
Taurine 1000mg
Inositol 50mg
Caffein 80mg
Carbs 27g (sugar)
Sodium 103mg
Sodium bicarb
Magnesium bicarb

 

[aaron_c]

Probably so to minimize heart attacks from them otherwise. Lol

This would seem to agree with you:
Effect of taurine and potential interactions with caffeine on cardiovascular function.

And here are some scientists saying that the benefits of red bull aren't just from caffeine, they are also from taurine and possibly one other ingredient (that is no longer included).

Why would Red Bull for instance cause a heart attack?

A short search seems to indicate that the main culprit is a high dose of caffeine.

I did see two articles suggesting that because high doses of taurine can cause changes in our heart rhythms, that taurine and caffeine together might increase the risk of a heart attack further than high doses of caffeine alone. But as I mentioned above, other people took the opposite view, and in my short search I didn't see any definitive evidence one way or the other.

 

[aaron_c]

@mgk: Excellent catch. Maybe that will explain it. If I can change my zinc status I'll report back.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Sherpa

"Various kinds of blue-light mediated damage as observed in the monkey may involve the “blue” cone pigment, a photosensitizer such as riboflavin within retinal cells or other sensitizers in pigment epithelium and choriod."

@picante I know you already know it, but perhaps you can put more pieces together:

Also zinc is a cofactor for converting riboflavin into its active form FMN,

 

[picante]

@Gondwanaland, I've been taking lots of zinc (10 drops = 15 mg daily). And the B2 I was taking was already in the FMN form -- I needed to convert it to FAD.

Magnesium is a co-factor, as @mgk pointed out in my B2 thread (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...how-to-get-out-of-the-maze.37492/#post-596328). So I've raised that (and added a little Ca).

Judging from an old urine amino acids test, I have taurine wasting, too. Interesting thread.

 

[picante]

[QUOTE="aaron_c, post: 528097, member: 12963"

• Intestinal problems: B2 is necessary to produce mucus to line our digestive tract.[/QUOTE]

This part caught my attention, because it affects our mucosal immunity. A huge part of our immune system is in the intestines.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland, I've been taking lots of zinc (10 drops = 15 mg daily). And the B2 I was taking was already in the FMN form -- I needed to convert it to FAD.

Magnesium is a co-factor, as @mgk pointed out in my B2 thread (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...how-to-get-out-of-the-maze.37492/#post-596328). So I've raised that (and added a little Ca).

Judging from an old urine amino acids test, I have taurine wasting, too. Interesting thread.

I am worried if you are not getting enough copper. Perhaps your husband has too little copper. Just read somewhere that it is needed to convert dopamine into noradrenaline.

No taurine test here where I live, but I can not absolutely tolerate it. If I take it during the day, I can't keep my eyes open. If I take at bedtime, I can't sleep.

My husband (+/+CBS 360) loves taurine, feels relaxed, pain free and energetic on it (Red Bull), but if I give him the real L-Taurine crystals he still feels well, but gets IBS-D.

 

[picante]

I am worried if you are not getting enough copper. Perhaps your husband has too little copper. Just read somewhere that it is needed to convert dopamine into noradrenaline.

Thanks, Izzy, I've just added in Cu again (I was off it for a while -- forgetting it, mostly). DH is not taking zinc. And right now, he's in a low-dopamine state (it's erratic due to his COMT+/+), so I'm not sure what to try. He doesn't have ME/CFS.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks, Izzy, I've just added in Cu again (I was off it for a while -- forgetting it, mostly). DH is not taking zinc. And right now, he's in a low-dopamine state (it's erratic due to his COMT+/+), so I'm not sure what to try. He doesn't have ME/CFS.

How about Zn+Cu, Mg aspartate, G. biloba, Quercetin, Turmeric for him (not all of them of course)?

 

[picante]

I think it might be zinc. I was taking taurine before I switched to a more absorbable form of zinc which changed the way I reacted to taurine. The effect it had used to wear off within a few hours but after it seemed to last a lot longer. I actually had to lower my dose because it felt like I was taking too much (went from 3g to 1g).

I'm curious how much zinc are you taking & what form?

@Gondwanaland, I think I'm taking too much zinc now (15 mg); it's starting to taste stronger and stronger (liquid drops). I'm going to cut back. Perhaps I'll need more when I try B2 again, but I think my conversion problem is actually from FMN to FAD.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think I'm taking too much zinc now (15 mg); it's starting to taste stronger and stronger (liquid drops).

10mg Zn for 12 days were enough to make me anemic (with high B12, B9, iron and ferritin). Now DH and I are taking Zn 8mg + 600mcg Cu + 500mcg Mn + 80mcg Se (I wonder if I should up Se) from Mon-Thu on / Fri-Sun off.

 

[aaron_c]

@Gondwanaland: Do you know why did the Zn made you anemic? Were you tested, or was it your conclusion from symptoms?

I am surprised that 10 mg of zinc works so well for you, as I take 35 mg of zinc per day, and have for years now. Granted, the difference in our doses may not be as much as it seems, as I have read that the more zinc one takes orally, the less one absorbs. A higher dose is still a higher dose--just not as much of an increase as you would expect. Also, I take 10 mg manganese per day, which is supposed to interfere with absorption (I think?).

I learned recently metallothionein binds zinc...(See this review of Zinc transport) I think more or less holding it until it is needed to make or shape proteins in the golgi aparatus and I believe the mitochondiria, but maybe doing other things too, I don't know enough. In any case nearly 30% of metallothionein is made up of cysteine residues (from Wikipedia, citing Sigel H, Sigel A, ed. 2009. Metallothioneins and Related Chelators in Metal Ions in Life Sciences) which as Rich pointed out so long ago, means it will have great difficulty being formed and properly folded. On the other hand, free zinc is supposed to upregulate the synthesis of metallothionein, so maybe the difficulty in synthesis could be overcome with more zinc, I am not sure.

Incidentally, I believe this theoretical issue with metallothionein is behind the MitoSynergy products, which chelate copper to niacin (metallothionein also binds copper), thus transporting copper to the mitochondria and bypassing difficulties with metallothionein. To be clear, the explanation I heard from the MitoSynergy people doesn't mention metallothionein, just that the active ingredient cunermuspir can be transported into and used by the mitochondria more effectively than other chelates. For whatever it is worth, cunermuspir worked for me where regular copper did not...I think the main difference was in a fuller range of emotions and appreciation for art and music. [Edit 1 & 2: I can't comment on changes to my energy level because taking copper and taking benfotiamine both ultimately feed the electron transport chain; cunermuspir gave me insomnia until I lowered my benfotiamine dose. Thus, cunermuspir was probably more effective at giving me energy, but since I didn't start with zero benfotiamine and zero copper, it was hard to tell for sure.]


All of this is to say that I am currently wondering if part of our problem with Zinc is due to inherent difficulty producing metallothionein when experiencing the kind of oxidative stress that we do.

I am going to try zinc skin creams to increase my zinc...we'll see how that goes.

I feel like this post is an incomplete thought. And although this theory about zinc and metallothionein would seem to suggest that everyone with ME/CFS has a big zinc problem, I am not sure that is actually the case. Nonetheless, I hope a half-thought is better than none at all.

 

[aaron_c]

@Gondwanaland: When your husband got IBS-D from the taurine, was it a comparable amount to what he gets from red bull, or a larger amount?

I'm afraid I don't have an answer either way, I'm just curious.

 

[Gondwanaland]

When your husband got IBS-D from the taurine, was it a comparable amount to what he gets from red bull, or a larger amount?

A much smaller amount I give him either pure L-Taurine powder in the amount of 200-400mg or capsules containing 70mg Mg glycinate + 170mg L-Taurine.

Do you know why did the Zn made you anemic? Were you tested, or was it your conclusion from symptoms?

I was taking 10mg zinc + 20mg Bitartrate choline in a capsule and on the 11th day I was feeling awful for a couple of days and received a newsletter in my email about low testosterone. Well, I had ALL the symptoms in there. So I grabbed the blood test order I had from my last dr appt and went to draw blood in the following morning:

• RBC count, hemoglobin and hematocrit were low below range (the lowest I ever measured)
• Ferritin and iron the highest I ever had (in range) (yes I feed all my results into an Excel spreadsheet)
• Estradiol indetectable
• Testosterone hasn't been tested

Well this is off-topic here, but here it goes.

I googled for zinc and low testosterone I found this:

With the high amount of histidine and cysteine in high-protein foods only few health conscious individuals will show signs of deficiency. In view of the increasing (and often unnecessary) supplementation of zinc and the inhibitory of excessive zinc consumption on copper absorption, it may however worth mentioning that - without sufficient copper intake (RDA = 3mg) - your testosterone booster with ZMA (Zinc + Magnesium + Vitamin B6) may well decrease GnRH, LH and thus testosterone.

I was taking 1g L-Glutamine and 2-3 tsps of whey powder since Feb-March. Also had just started very low doses of BCAAs together with the zinc:
L-Leucine 50mg
L-isoleucine 25mg
L-valine 25mg
P-5-P 2mg

Reading about low testosterone symptoms, I think this has been underlying my health decline since 2011 when I started taking warfarin. I imagine that in addition to antagonizing vit K, it also antagonizes copper, and low vit K + low copper = low testosterone + >FM Warfarin also caused me to get FM from gluten - I guess that gluten impaired mineral absorption in levels I could not handle anymore due to warfarin intake.

So I asked my dr for pregnenolone, but he wants me to do a saliva test for it -- my insurance doesn't cover it and I can't afford it. So next Wed I am going to see another dr and will ask for it.

 

[picante]

According to the acu-cell site, zinc does not interfere with copper nearly as much as chromium does:

There are other copper antagonists such as zinc, however while zinc is generally documented as such in the nutritional literature, it is not only the weakest of all copper antagonists, but its action on copper takes place only on an intestinal level, so once copper goes into storage, zinc will have no effect on lowering copper any longer. The only time zinc could become a threat to copper is in situations where either copper levels are already on the low side and high amounts of zinc are ingested, or when potassium and calcium - being "synergistic allies" to copper - are well below normal.

 

[Gondwanaland]

cunermuspir???? will have to google that

For whatever it is worth, cunermuspir worked for me where regular copper did not...I think the main difference was in a fuller range of emotions and appreciation for art and music.

I want to recover that ability Yesterday at the farmers' market there was a cool jazz quartet performing, but I didn't stay to enjoy it I haven't been to the movies or listened to music in years

Edit: I can't comment on changes to my energy level because taking copper and taking benfotiamine both seem to work at giving energy through the same entrance to the krebs cycle; cunermuspir gave me insomnia until I lowered my benfotiamine dose. Thus, cunermuspir was probably more effective at giving me energy, but since I didn't start with zero benfotiamine and zero copper, it was hard to tell for sure.

How do you know all that????