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Sympathetic stuck on 'on?'

Jyoti

Senior Member
Messages
3,373
I happened upon a new wearable device that claims to be able to alter mood and to shift the CNS from sympathetic to parasympathetic, among other things: Apollo Neuro (https://apolloneuro.com). I was pretty skeptical but read a bunch of reviews, most of which were done by professional reviewers since the product is very new and not yet widely used.

There were a few consistent complaints--it is not attractive, if you wear it on your ankle (preferred placement for many, it seems) it looks enough like an ankle monitor to make people self-conscious and when you wear it on your wrist, it is big and clunky enough to get in the way of typing. Beyond these issues, every review I could find suggested that it really works and can make a huge difference in the quality of one's life.

So...I took the plunge and bought one. It is pricey--about $350. But then again, how long does it take me to spend that on supplements? How many osteopathic treatments does that cover? How many minutes with someone like Dr. Kaufman does that pay for? We all the know the calculations that go into these choices.

Speaking only for myself, this has been an incredible investment so far. I have had it just a week and will report back in a month or so. The literature suggests that regular usage over the course of 30 days can actually retrain your nervous system, create or recreate the neural pathways that allow one to respond to stress more functionally by moving back into parasympathetic mode when any potential dangers/stressors have passed.

In addition, their own research (we will have to wait for something independent, I suppose) shows a consistent elevation of HRV for regular users.

The Apollo apparently works by emitting inaudible, low frequency sound waves. There are seven modes to choose from, or seven patterns of sound waves: Energy and Wake Up, Meditation and Mindfulness, Rebuild and Recover, Clear and Focused, Social and Open, Relax and Unwind, Sleep and Renew. In addition to choosing the mode you need, you get to select an intensity of vibration and a length of session. It is advised that you set it low so that the vibrations can be felt only when you are really attending--mostly, they seem to become part of the background for me.

The device is controlled by a smartphone, which is another limitation for some of us. And there are some concerns for me about the EMFs, though you can set it for airplane mode if you it is not at work.

I am not a big tech-lover and do not generally look in this direction for solutions to my problems. But, as mentioned above, I am really excited about this. I do feel like my sympathetic nervous system has been stuck on 'on' since I got sick 8 years ago. I CAN shift it with very conscious attention--breathing and meditation--but if my focus wavers for a second it rebounds back to a sympathetic tone instantly. I know we are varied in our symptomology, but for those who like me tend toward wired but tired and an inability to lay it all down, this might be a good thing to look at..

Here are my specific observations so far:

The Good:
The Relax and Unwind mode almost immediately had a notable impact. I felt muscles I didn't know I had soften and relax. Kept on for an hour or so every few hours leaves me feeling much more comfortable and relaxed, able to deal with surprises or small challenges without my typical response which is to clench and defend and then plough on through what needs to be done. With this regular reminder to my body to calm down, I do seem able to meet life with less hypervigilance and tension.

The other night, I was coming off a long and very active day and I was extremely wired and tired. Trembling when I finally got to bed. I put the Apollo on Relax and Unwind and while it took almost an hour, the tension all dissipated in a way it NEVER would have on my own efforts. I found myself relaxed enough to be yawning and feeling sleepy. I was sure I was headed into PEM, but ....dodged it this time.

Speaking of that--the Sleep and Renew mode has been a bit of a revelation. The first night I tried it, I found myself doing just that--yawning and feeling sleepy. I realized that I have not felt that way--or yawned--in at least 7 years. I (and perhaps I am alone in this?) just trigger more and more cortisol the more exhausted my system is. Then, I need to slam myself with various herbs and such to knock myself out. To yawn was amazing, to feel my body relaxing into its own tiredness was delicious. (See below for the sleep report.)

Social and Open mode seems to give me a little space when I am interacting with others. Even when I at low ebb, I am more able than usual to really attend to and care about others (as ideally I always want to) than I would normally, where my goal is to just get through it.

Meditation and Mindfulness seem nice, but I am a meditator and didn't wildly change anything for me.

Not able to attribute this to a specific mode, I am also just delighted to find that I am weeping a lot of late. (Movies, stories in the news mostly.) This may sound weird, but I was always a great crier. I have missed having access to this over the years of my illness. I have cried, but mostly in frustration or anger. As I relax, I surmise, I am more able to flow with my emotional states and it feels great.

The Bad:
The Apollo is not putting me to sleep. It is helping me feel sleepy and less tense, which is great, but I do not cross the line into sleep without the usual potions. On the other hand, it does seem to help me get back to sleep when I wake up in the night. Promotional material says that the impact accrues over 30 days at least and so I am still hoping this will be more helpful as I use it longer.

The Energy and Wake Up mode is awful for me, like drinking six espressos without the joy of the coffee.

Would love to know if anyone else has tried the Apollo or anything like it.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Interesting. Looking on Reddit, there are quite a few positive reviews about this device.

The Apollo Neuro apparently works by creating mechanical vibrations (which can be described as low frequency sound waves).


When you turn up the intensity of vibration on your Apollo device, do you get any idea of the frequency of the vibration (the number of beats or taps per second on your skin)?

Does it make a tap-tap-tap feeling on your skin where you can almost count the individual taps, or are the taps so fast that they just blur all together?
 
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xebex

Senior Member
Messages
840
This sounds great! I did look at it a while back but was unsure, so thanks for your review! It’s certainly something I will look in to as Im definitely a wired but tired type. One of the things I’m really struggling with at the moment is my muscles constantly spasming, and like you say if you focus enough you can get them to relax but then it starts up the moment you lose focus and focusing that hard is also exhausting! So this could be great for me!
 

Jyoti

Senior Member
Messages
3,373
Does is make a tap-tap-tap feeling on your skin where you can almost count the individual taps, or are the taps so fast that they just blur all together?

It depends a little on the mode--I just now went and mapped them all in a orderly fashion. Mostly, it feels like a very very slight rhythmic buzzing. When I put it up to 100% intensity, I could feel the individual taps of the sleep mode, which is much slower than the others, but I have not noticed that in use. So...some modes are 'louder' or more easy to feel the buzzing, some modes have longer buzzes and longer pauses. Those are the differences I detect, but the instructions advice that ideally you are not focused on the sensation--it is there in the background. And so I find it most of the time.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I just happen to have a tiny button vibration motor, which are used in cell phones to create the alert vibration. You can buy them for less than $1, and they can run off a 1.5 volt battery.

I've just placed one of this vibration motors on my ankle. We will see if I get any effects. It may be that the frequency or intensity of vibration of my motor is not suitable though.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
It may be that the frequency or intensity of vibration of my motor is not suitable though.

... and the $350 device may be just one of those $1 motors with a $1 speed controller. ;)

The motor will probably spin faster if you double the voltage, which probably won't burn it out if you don't run it too long. A simple pulse-width modulator would let you control the speed smoothly.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I originally bought this button vibration motor to see if it might work as a vagus nerve stimulator (as a mechanical alternative to standard electrical vagus nerve stimulation). So I was going to place it on my ear or neck, where the vagus nerve runs, but I never got around to trying it, so it was just sitting on my shelf.
 

junkcrap50

Senior Member
Messages
1,330
It depends a little on the mode--I just now went and mapped them all in a orderly fashion. Mostly, it feels like a very very slight rhythmic buzzing. When I put it up to 100% intensity, I could feel the individual taps of the sleep mode, which is much slower than the others, but I have not noticed that in use. So...some modes are 'louder' or more easy to feel the buzzing, some modes have longer buzzes and longer pauses. Those are the differences I detect, but the instructions advice that ideally you are not focused on the sensation--it is there in the background. And so I find it most of the time.
Wait. So you're not supposed to feel it? It's not some sort of mindfulness or biofeedback device that vibrates during high or low HRV periods? Like you do better when you're rewarded with having higher HRV? Then how the hell does it work? How can very small vibrations on your wrist or ankle influence the vagas nerve and your HRV?

Briefly looking at their website, I couldn't find the original science papers that founded the basis for the product. They said it was out of U of Pittsburg, I think.

I originally bought this button vibration motor to see if it might work as a vagus nerve stimulator (as a mechanical alternative to standard electrical vagus nerve stimulation). So I was going to place it on my ear or neck, where the vagus nerve runs, but I never got around to trying it, so it was just sitting on my shelf.
I was thinking of doing the same thing, but stick it in my nose. See this swedish study: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...hanical-stimulation-of-the-vagus-nerve.79238/
 
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Judee

Psalm 46:1-3
Messages
4,461
Location
Great Lakes

xebex

Senior Member
Messages
840
Just read this, thought it was an intersting albeit conservative analysis, I was slightly concerned by this paragraph though, lol

Commercial VNS devices have serious potential side effects like cardiac arrest because of this strong connection to the heart. Improper stimulation can cause problems with the cardiac system and trigger a heart attack. For that reason, VNS devices are generally applied only to the right side of the nerve because it has less direct connection to the heart.”

https://www.brainfacts.org/diseases...stimulation-devices-safe-and-effective-042419


I do think there’s a lot of value in the vagus nerve theory and have found some improvement in things which could be stimulating the vagus nerve ie cold water immersion really helped my migraines and EFT improved my energy levels and emotional stress resilience
 

junkcrap50

Senior Member
Messages
1,330
For that reason, VNS devices are generally applied only to the right side of the nerve because it has less direct connection to the heart.”
From my memory and what I've read, it's the opposite. Use the left side of your neck bc the right side of your neck is connected to your heart. I mean your heart is on your left side, but that's what I recall reading in tVNS papers.
 

lenora

Senior Member
Messages
4,913
Hmmm...this is very interesting, @Jyoti. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you as the month or months pass. I would be more than willing to try something like this.

Does it give you physical energy? I'm sorely lacking in being able to walk and still be able to talk at the end of it. Oh, what about pain....does it have a setting for that? How long have you been ill? I was officially diagnosed about 35+- years ago. Iwonder if there's any info on how long your body can be ill, but then get used to it and not react.

Can they be rented, I wonder? Lots of questions...you'll be sorry you posted this info. Thanks, @Jyoti, very kind of you to let us know. Feel better; then let us know. Yours, Lenora.
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
From my memory and what I've read, it's the opposite. Use the left side of your neck bc the right side of your neck is connected to your heart. I mean your heart is on your left side, but that's what I recall reading in tVNS papers.

You might be right-

Conventionally, the left vagus nerve has mostly been selected as the preferred stimulation site due to safety concerns arising from observations during animal studies showing that right-sided VNS results in a greater degree of bradycardia (Yuan and Silberstein, 2016b).

This is due to the asymmetric innervation of the heart, where the right vagus nerve predominantly innervates the sinoatrial (SA) node and the left predominantly innervates the atrioventricular (AV) node (Ardell and Randall, 1986).

Reference
 

xebex

Senior Member
Messages
840
woah! well that article was super helpful then! nothing like deterring people from using a potentially dangerous device by giving them the wrong information on how to do it more "safely".
 

lenora

Senior Member
Messages
4,913
Well, I've just been wondering if there's some acupressure point or the like the help bring down high BP.

I had a stent inserted in my r. carotid artery, very near the top of it, thus closer to the brain. Usually, in these cases, the BP drops for at least the first few mos. In my case, that hasn't occurred at all, as a matter of fact, it's hanging around about the 200 systolic point. Too high, even for me. Now I could do a very, very fast leap from that to 300 in no time. I've done it before and it's definitely stroke territory.

Now I have been coughing a lot, hard pressured coughing and I'm battling an infection, sinus and chronic bronchitis. Perhaps that has something to do with it. The usual natural alternatives don't work for me, but if someone has found a specific acupressure point, I'd use it. I'll go ahead and look it up, but won't go on youtube.. Too many videos to go through. I'm in bed as I write this. Thanks for any assistance. Yours, Lenora.