Stem Cells

oerganix

Senior Member
Messages
611
Would like to more know on the cheny article on stem cells as well a the water discussion-- anyone subsribe to this and can net this out?

At $50/mo or $500/yr, it's a bit steep. Wonder whether those interested in stem cells, and other endeavers of his, would be interested in pooling funds for a subscription which could be shared privately amongst us? If so, pm me with what you think you could pay.
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
7 billion??? Even if you divide by 10 (if the size difference means efficacy difference) that's 700 million, which is 14 times what you'd be getting with Cheney (50 mil). Perhaps that should be clarified with Dr. Wong
 

jenbooks

Guest
Messages
1,270
Is it true that Paul Cheney completely stopped his stem cell research for six months after WPI's XMRV findings came out--and resumed it after the negative studies on XMRV? I was just told this backchannel email but find it hard to believe.

Will someone please clarify this for me, as it seems hard for me to countenance someone suspending such promising work, and resuming it supposedly on the assumption XMRV is not a major player. I'd heard he was testing pre and post stem cells for XMRV. Others are following his work more closely. Please clarify for me. Thanks.
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
This is simply not true. Dr. Cheney definitely believes XMRV to be at least a major player and possibly causative. He communicates with Dr. Mikovits on an ongoing basis.

I will repost my blog here: http://pathogensoup.blogspot.com/2010/04/stem-cells-curiouser-and-curiouser.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stem Cells--Curiouser and Curiouser

I'm gonna keep this cut and dry because I'm taking quite the beating from my current treatment. For the last few months I've been sleuthing around trying to dredge up more info on stem cells, and there are several developments that I wanted to share. But let's start out with some public information I already posted before from http://www.cheneyresearch.com/category/subscribers:

Results of stem cell therapy at 7 months in a family of three.

Three family members, mother, son and daughter, all with CFS, were evaluated recently in my clinic. They all became sick in Prague, the Czech Republic, on the mothers sabbatical LOA from her college teaching position after all had a chicken-pox like illness. They are all seven months out from stem cell therapy in Panama. They all have improved significantly following stem cell therapy with the daughter claiming a complete cure after 17 years of illness at the age of 29. She is the second stem cell patient claiming a complete cure and includes an unrelated 23 year old male patient, also 7 months out from stem cells. Both cures took at least 90 days to become manifest with the first thirty days exhibiting significant hypersomnolence and with little energy to do much and typical for all the CFS stem cell patients (N=13).
So far he has accompanied 14 CFIDS patients to Panama, and I believe he has a total of 2 complete cures, 1 non-responder (whom previously had complicating issues), and the remainder with significant improvement. I'm not sure how "significant" was measured, but I'm guessing with his ECHO terrain mapping. Besides Cheney patients, there are 2 other patients I know of, one of whom posted about her experience on the stem cell thread at Cort's Phoenix Rising forum http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?484-Stem-Cells. The other is an ex-Peterson patient whom was part of the original Incline Village cohort and is now able to do aerobic exercise.

I have reliable sources telling me that at least 1 of the 2 Cheney patients claiming a complete cure was XMRV positive before treatment with a re-test pending. There is also another patient that was XMRV positive for culture before stem cell transfusion and negative afterwards. It seems that stem cells stop XMRV from replication at least temporarily: the question is whether this will hold. In fact, Cheney believes that stem cells are the best thing for stopping immune abnormalities dead in their tracks that he's ever seen, to the extent that even chronic allergies (in a CFIDS patient) were reversed. As for keeping XMRV from replicating after stem cells, he seems to think artesunate (a NF-Kappa B inhibitor but also inhibitor of herpes viruses and HIV) is sufficient and mentioned a German study that backed this up. At this point, he is not advising any CFIDS patients to take any AIDS drugs, particularly AZT. Although he is very high on the XMRV theory per Mikovits, he says it is much closer to HTLV because it replicates so much slower than HIV.

For confidentiality purposes, I can't detail all the clinical markers that improved after treatment, but they ranged from markers of oversensitivity and inflammation, antioxidant enzymes, bacterial overgrowth, hormones, to tolerance for methylation supplements (using his testing, he showed that CFIDS patients suffer methylb12 and folate-induced backlash).

Despite how promising this sounds, there is still a huge risk factor: cancer being one of them. However, with XMRV positive the cancer risk is already present, so stem cells might make you par for the course. Obviously age is a huge factor here. Cheney isn't sure if stem cells for those 40 and up can lead to complete reversal. Compared with other treatments like neural therapy, stem cells take only 1 week, commonly leading to hypersomnolence for 30 days, and a virtual rebirth afterwards for the best responders. They're expensive, in the range of 15-20K, but those of us that have been sick the longest know that the money we've already spent and the money that we will spend to maintain quality of life without significant earned income makes that figure seem like chump change. Even if we need repeat transfusions every 10 years, the net present value of that figure is less for the rest of my life than what I spent on treatments last year alone.

My biggest worry was, and still is, XMRV reinfection post-transfusion. If there were a nontoxic tried-and-true way of keeping the virus from replicating (or even better, eradicating as peptides such as Peptide T may have potential of doing), I would probably fly to Costa Rica tomorrow. As it stands, all we really have is a leap of faith that the virus won't revive within the next 5 or 10 years.

So far, all of my patient friends that are in their 40s and above are telling me I'd be stupid not to get stem cells this summer with the combination of age and coming up on my 5-yr mark in October. They of all people know, more than how much we have to gain with a therapy like this, how much we have to lose if we let our youth pass by in postexertional malaise and derealization from society. I'd still like to see how the other 12 that have had "significant improvement" respond over the next few months. 2 out of 14 claiming complete cures is 1 more than the number of complete cures Cheney famously claimed to have achieved at a conference pre-dating stem cells, but that's still only a 14% cure rate.

For now, to prepare for the possibility:
1) I'm trying to get a phone appointment with GMA or Dr. Larry Sharp in Fort Worth Texas (as far as I know these are the only non-Cheney practitioners using his CSF's) so I can start taking Cheney's cell-signaling factors (derived from bison peptides).
2) I'm continuing to correct corrupted gut ecology with VLS #3, d-lactate free Custom Probiotics, high enzymes+betaine HCL, sanpharma suppositories (Mucor, Candida, Firmus, Quentan tested best for me).
3) I will also test for artesunate (Dr. Cheney uses a form of artesunate called hepasunate, made by a company called hepalin).

Cheney doesn't advise anyone get stem cells prior to knocking down all three.
 

InvertedTree

Senior Member
Messages
166
Actually it is true. I am in communication with a top doc and this is what is being said. This is not from second or third hand information or emails it is directly from a source and this doctor is also in communication with Dr. Mikovits. In fact, a study done by this doctor's office is the reason the doctors there now believe that although important, xmrv is not the driver as Dr. Bell put it. I don't like it but I'm just reporting what i've been told. I'm not sure how your blog post is supporting your claims that this is not true when you have no DIRECT knowledge but are reporting things second/third hand.
 

jenbooks

Guest
Messages
1,270
I was trying to get clarity on whether he actually suspended these very promising stem cell trials for six months. Actually I wasn't inquiring as to the specific reason. He has often shifted course and his latest report seems very encouraging. I wanted to know if he actually had a lapse of faith in stem cells for six months--presumably because of XMRV info? Here he has three cures (for now) and steady improvements in the others. Why suspend it--did he actually do that?
 

oerganix

Senior Member
Messages
611
I was trying to get clarity on whether he actually suspended these very promising stem cell trials for six months. Actually I wasn't inquiring as to the specific reason. He has often shifted course and his latest report seems very encouraging. I wanted to know if he actually had a lapse of faith in stem cells for six months--presumably because of XMRV info? Here he has three cures (for now) and steady improvements in the others. Why suspend it--did he actually do that?

Since he doesn't give dates of when his patients went to Panama and CR, we can't know for sure, but just from reading his public website info, it doesn't look like he suspended that. If he did, he certainly has resumed and seems over-all positive about the procedure. His site says he'll report more this summer, so we'll just have to wait and see.

The blow back from the Failure To Find studies certainly could have affected his thinking, if only temporarily. But those studies have been fairly well refuted, so who knows what he's thinking on XMRV now. Like most of us, I'd guess he's taking a deep breath and waiting for more information to come out.
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
Invertedtree,

Who is your "top doc"? Is it firsthand information from him or firsthand information from Cheney? I wasn't referring to any doc besides Cheney and conveying (based on what his own patients have been telling me) that he thinks XMRV is a major player and potentially causative. Also, I'm well aware that Cheney suspended stem cells post-XMRV, but despite starting them up again, I'm reporting his stance on XMRV as of 1 week ago. I promised the patients who gave me accounts that I wouldn't post specific information verbatim, but I summarized the best I could.

If you have any more information, I think we'd all appreciate you sharing what you can.
 

oerganix

Senior Member
Messages
611
This is simply not true. Dr. Cheney definitely believes XMRV to be at least a major player and possibly causative. He communicates with Dr. Mikovits on an ongoing basis.

I will repost my blog here: http://pathogensoup.blogspot.com/2010/04/stem-cells-curiouser-and-curiouser.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stem Cells--Curiouser and Curiouser

I'm gonna keep this cut and dry because I'm taking quite the beating from my current treatment. For the last few months I've been sleuthing around trying to dredge up more info on stem cells, and there are several developments that I wanted to share. But let's start out with some public information I already posted before from http://www.cheneyresearch.com/category/subscribers:

Results of stem cell therapy at 7 months in a family of three.

Three family members, mother, son and daughter, all with CFS, were evaluated recently in my clinic. They all became sick in Prague, the Czech Republic, on the mothers sabbatical LOA from her college teaching position after all had a chicken-pox like illness. They are all seven months out from stem cell therapy in Panama. They all have improved significantly following stem cell therapy with the daughter claiming a complete cure after 17 years of illness at the age of 29. She is the second stem cell patient claiming a complete cure and includes an unrelated 23 year old male patient, also 7 months out from stem cells. Both cures took at least 90 days to become manifest with the first thirty days exhibiting significant hypersomnolence and with little energy to do much and typical for all the CFS stem cell patients (N=13).
So far he has accompanied 14 CFIDS patients to Panama, and I believe he has a total of 2 complete cures, 1 non-responder (whom previously had complicating issues), and the remainder with significant improvement. I'm not sure how "significant" was measured, but I'm guessing with his ECHO terrain mapping. Besides Cheney patients, there are 2 other patients I know of, one of whom posted about her experience on the stem cell thread at Cort's Phoenix Rising forum http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?484-Stem-Cells. The other is an ex-Peterson patient whom was part of the original Incline Village cohort and is now able to do aerobic exercise.

I have reliable sources telling me that at least 1 of the 2 Cheney patients claiming a complete cure was XMRV positive before treatment with a re-test pending. There is also another patient that was XMRV positive for culture before stem cell transfusion and negative afterwards. It seems that stem cells stop XMRV from replication at least temporarily: the question is whether this will hold. In fact, Cheney believes that stem cells are the best thing for stopping immune abnormalities dead in their tracks that he's ever seen, to the extent that even chronic allergies (in a CFIDS patient) were reversed. As for keeping XMRV from replicating after stem cells, he seems to think artesunate (a NF-Kappa B inhibitor but also inhibitor of herpes viruses and HIV) is sufficient and mentioned a German study that backed this up. At this point, he is not advising any CFIDS patients to take any AIDS drugs, particularly AZT. Although he is very high on the XMRV theory per Mikovits, he says it is much closer to HTLV because it replicates so much slower than HIV.

For confidentiality purposes, I can't detail all the clinical markers that improved after treatment, but they ranged from markers of oversensitivity and inflammation, antioxidant enzymes, bacterial overgrowth, hormones, to tolerance for methylation supplements (using his testing, he showed that CFIDS patients suffer methylb12 and folate-induced backlash).

Despite how promising this sounds, there is still a huge risk factor: cancer being one of them. However, with XMRV positive the cancer risk is already present, so stem cells might make you par for the course. Obviously age is a huge factor here. Cheney isn't sure if stem cells for those 40 and up can lead to complete reversal. Compared with other treatments like neural therapy, stem cells take only 1 week, commonly leading to hypersomnolence for 30 days, and a virtual rebirth afterwards for the best responders. They're expensive, in the range of 15-20K, but those of us that have been sick the longest know that the money we've already spent and the money that we will spend to maintain quality of life without significant earned income makes that figure seem like chump change. Even if we need repeat transfusions every 10 years, the net present value of that figure is less for the rest of my life than what I spent on treatments last year alone.

My biggest worry was, and still is, XMRV reinfection post-transfusion. If there were a nontoxic tried-and-true way of keeping the virus from replicating (or even better, eradicating as peptides such as Peptide T may have potential of doing), I would probably fly to Costa Rica tomorrow. As it stands, all we really have is a leap of faith that the virus won't revive within the next 5 or 10 years.

So far, all of my patient friends that are in their 40s and above are telling me I'd be stupid not to get stem cells this summer with the combination of age and coming up on my 5-yr mark in October. They of all people know, more than how much we have to gain with a therapy like this, how much we have to lose if we let our youth pass by in postexertional malaise and derealization from society. I'd still like to see how the other 12 that have had "significant improvement" respond over the next few months. 2 out of 14 claiming complete cures is 1 more than the number of complete cures Cheney famously claimed to have achieved at a conference pre-dating stem cells, but that's still only a 14% cure rate.

For now, to prepare for the possibility:
1) I'm trying to get a phone appointment with GMA or Dr. Larry Sharp in Fort Worth Texas (as far as I know these are the only non-Cheney practitioners using his CSF's) so I can start taking Cheney's cell-signaling factors (derived from bison peptides).
2) I'm continuing to correct corrupted gut ecology with VLS #3, d-lactate free Custom Probiotics, high enzymes+betaine HCL, sanpharma suppositories (Mucor, Candida, Firmus, Quentan tested best for me).
3) I will also test for artesunate (Dr. Cheney uses a form of artesunate called hepasunate, made by a company called hepalin).

Cheney doesn't advise anyone get stem cells prior to knocking down all three.

Thanks for sharing this.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "knocking down all three". Could you say what all three are? I understand gut issues, but what are the other two?
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
Jen,

I'm not sure if it was a lapse of faith so much as a wait-and-see mode. Please read the part of my blog that I bolded, and that may be part of the reason why he has regained confidence in stem cells despite his stance on XMRV. The other part may be his confidence in artesunate to hold off retroviral replication especially with a german publication that supports this.

Lots of speculation yes, but that seems to be a budding consensus among those patients of his that I've spoken with.
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
oerganix,

the other two are cell-signaling factors to fix the software (he considers stem cells the hardware) and artesunate to prevent viral replication
 

jenbooks

Guest
Messages
1,270
Thanks, Joey. You can see I have such a strong interest in following this therapy I actually posted again on the board.

Can you cite me the Germany study so I can go find the fulltext? Lisa (Slayadragon) has said he thinks artesunate is also an antioxidant. I'm not sure how artersunate compares to other artemisia derivatives that are not drugs, but seem to work well on pathogens.


Jen,

I'm not sure if it was a lapse of faith so much as a wait-and-see mode. Please read the part of my blog that I bolded, and that may be part of the reason why he has regained confidence in stem cells despite his stance on XMRV. The other part may be his confidence in artesunate to hold off retroviral replication especially with a german publication that supports this.

Lots of speculation yes, but that seems to be a budding consensus among those patients of his that I've spoken with.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Jenbooks, if you look at the Artemisinin thread (under Antivirals) you will find some information--I think Cheney sees Artesunate as a redox shifter rather than as an antioxidant--it promotes oxidation I think, thereby inhibiting viral replication. Chris
 

JanisB

Senior Member
Messages
247
Location
Central Ohio
I too would like to find out what information the Cheney subscribers are getting. And I like the idea of a group subscription. I am wondering if it would be legal for Phoenix Rising Forum to subscribe (we could all chip in $1) so we could all read.

As for(name removed at behest of the company) ? sending 7 billion, or most likely 7 million cells by mail, that reminding me that the man I spoke with in Dallas, (Dr. Vind, a patient himself), had cells sent by mail to his son who was too weak to travel to Dallas. He said the response was muted, as if the potency was about half of what he would have gotten if he had traveled. His son is now improved enough to travel for additional treatments.

The reason I'm reporting this case, even though the son did not have CFS-ME (and I don't know what he did have), is that so many PWC's are bedridden and cannot travel, so if stem cells could be sent to them to inject subcutaneously (something they could do themselves or with the help of a caretaker), and they could improve enough to travel for further treatment, it would change the lives of a whole lot of wonderful, very sick people.
 

InvertedTree

Senior Member
Messages
166
I too would like to find out what information the Cheney subscribers are getting. And I like the idea of a group subscription. I am wondering if it would be legal for Phoenix Rising Forum to subscribe (we could all chip in $1) so we could all read.

As for(name removed at behest of the company) ? sending 7 billion, or most likely 7 million cells by mail, that reminding me that the man I spoke with in Dallas, (Dr. Vind, a patient himself), had cells sent by mail to his son who was too weak to travel to Dallas. He said the response was muted, as if the potency was about half of what he would have gotten if he had traveled. His son is now improved enough to travel for additional treatments.

The reason I'm reporting this case, even though the son did not have CFS-ME (and I don't know what he did have), is that so many PWC's are bedridden and cannot travel, so if stem cells could be sent to them to inject subcutaneously (something they could do themselves or with the help of a caretaker), and they could improve enough to travel for further treatment, it would change the lives of a whole lot of wonderful, very sick people.

Excellent point Janis. As someone who is bedridden I'm hoping to do a less expensive stem cell treatment first and then off to Panama.
 
Messages
41
Is it true that Paul Cheney completely stopped his stem cell research for six months after WPI's XMRV findings came out--and resumed it after the negative studies on XMRV? I was just told this backchannel email but find it hard to believe.

Will someone please clarify this for me, as it seems hard for me to countenance someone suspending such promising work, and resuming it supposedly on the assumption XMRV is not a major player. I'd heard he was testing pre and post stem cells for XMRV. Others are following his work more closely. Please clarify for me. Thanks.


Cheney DOES believe XMRV is a major player... in fact, he believes XMRV causes CFS. He resumed the stem cell research not because of any negative studies (which he discredits), but to make sure those who had received stem cells before he knew about XMRV were okay.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi; I did subscribe to Cheney's website, and recently unsubscribed, since I am now taking Artesunate again on a one week on and one week off schedule, with Stem-Kine on the alternate weeks, and so far so good--but money is not elastic. The unsubscription was courteously handled, with an invitation to resubscribe at any time. So that is one way--I strongly suspect that Cheney is using the website to raise funds to help pay for his research, since as Osler's Web reports he has, I think, given up hope of ever getting funded through "regular" channels. I think the idea of a group subscription would be great, but very much doubt he would go along with it; part of the subscription seems to be that one is in some way recognized as being a patient, and there may be some legal issue at play here that I do not understand and probably don't want to--medical advice issues?

If it seems possible, count me in! But... The structured water thing seems a recognition that alkalized water may have its uses--I did not understand it, but seems it can affect the redox point, which seems important in controlling viral replication, as discussed on his 2009 DVD. Best, Chris
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
I've had no luck getting a doctor (between GMA and Dr. Larry Sharp in Forth Worth) willing to give me Cheney's cell-signaling factors without seeing them in person. I heard through backchannel that Lee Cowden also has them, but I have no idea how to track him down. What a travesty that there are so few doctors that have access to his bison peptides.

I also heard that Cheney is starting to inject the stem cells into the spine now, in addition to just IVs. This seems far riskier, but we'll see how they respond.
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
Structured Waters

I drank Penta water (per Yasko protocol) for 6 months and didn't notice anything different.
 
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